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cahnLast post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.
Re: Saxon archives
Date: 2023-04-04 02:16 pm (UTC)Still find FW in a mask at a ball a weird mental image, but I guess when in Dresden, do as the Saxons do (but not too much :P).
LOL, well, when I was screencaping Der Thronfolger, I did include a shot of FW in costume during the 1728 Saxony visit - check out my pic spam again.(The direct link to the photo in question is here.) It's carnival, after all. And hey, child!him had to pose as David for that painting Mom commissioned, so it's not like he hadn't done it before. Also I think Wilhelmine mentions it in her report on the Dresden visit (as given to her by Fritz, one assumes). The scene where he wears a carnival costume ends with the (in)famous occasion where he and Fritz gets presented with a naked lady, well, as naked as German tv allowed.
I'm absolutely thrilled all those documents survived Dresden getting flattened by the Royal Air Force. (I assume they were evacuated in time, like Fritz' and FW's dead bodies in their sarcophagi were?) And that the're now digitized.
Guys, I can recognize Suhm's handwriting in preview mode!
You're awesome, but we knew that. :)
So now we see why Wikipedia long ago told us that historians believe the charge of impregnating his niece was trumped-up to cover the real charge.
Yep. I'm still fascinated that Hoym gets arrested for corresponding with Fritz and being earmarked for working with him in the mid 1730s while Suhm, who's definitely corresponding with Fritz and very likely earmarked for working with him as far as the Saxons know gets first entrusted with the super secret Russia negotiations and then gets his wanted leave. Granted, Hoym is in Saxony and thus can easily be arrested, while Suhm is in St. Petersburg, but he's intending to travel via Poland and thus Saxon territory, and presumably if Brühl had distrusted him, he wouldn't have given Nicolas S. leave to meet up with his brother but would have set some soldiers to Warsow to receive him.
Now, mostly I suspect it's due to changed political circumstances. The Hoym stuff goes down either during or directly after the War of the Polish Succession, and if Fritz had become King then and had indeed allied with the French and Stanislas Lescynski, you do not want someone who was for a short time the most powerful minister of Saxony and Poland and knows all the defense stuff and the true state of the army at his disposal. In 1740, Stanislas Lescynski isn't an issue anymore and things are looking relatively good with the French, impending Saxon/French marriage alliance upcoming. Still - the Saxons want to overthrow the Polish constitution and Suhm doesn't just know about this plan, he's brokered it and partly developed it, and one would think THAT is not something Brühl wants to share with the new King in Prussia.
Maybe Suhm was just exuding trustworthiness. :) I mean, even Pichon in his passionate defense admits Hoym could come across as haughty, and an occasion gets mentioned and admitted in the initial 18 charges where he grabs people and shouts in their faces. Whereas Suhm presumably was soft spoken and nice to everyone.
Question: if Fritz actually liked Hoym, as opposed to finding him useful, could this be another reason as to why he had it in so much for Brühl later?
Re: Saxon archives
Date: 2023-04-04 10:59 pm (UTC)I know! I was thinking of his 1728 visit, and especially the naked lady, when I said "When in Dresden...but not too much." It's still a weird mental image. FW in Saxony is just cognitive dissonance for me, what can I say? ;)
I'm absolutely thrilled all those documents survived Dresden getting flattened by the Royal Air Force.
Meeeee toooooo!
Now, mostly I suspect it's due to changed political circumstances.
Yeah, but as you pointed out, he got entrusted with the St. Petersburg assignment only 2 years later, and that included anti-Prussia negotiations! That's the more surprising part to me. Admittedly by that point, the War of the Polish Succession had mostly been settled in Augustus' favor.
It's possible that by the time it was 1740, he'd proven himself and you're right that they *wanted* him to go spy on Fritz. And I'm willing to believe they did want Lynar back in St. Petersburg, although admittedly that's not the same as letting Suhm go to Prussia as opposed to come back home.
Btw, Fritz and Suhm are pretty explicit in their letters in early 1740 about how Suhm is going to come join him.
February 4, Fritz writes:
I embrace the opportunity...to remind you of me, and to advise you, that in a short time the epocha will arrive, when I shall summon you to perform promises. I hope you are always in the same sentiments in which I have known you, and that you have not forgotten the agreement made the night of our separation.
While I wait for the pleasure of seeing you again, I send you a ring with my portrait, which I beg you will never part with.
Suhm writes a long discursus on how he is touched and also offended that Fritz needs the reassurance that his Diaphane is still faithful to him, and concludes:
...the unalterable sentiments of respect and devotion, which my heart has vowed to you, and which I desire to prove by my services to the last moment of my life; expecting with the warmest impatience, the epocha when I shall be recalled near to your person, never more to be separated from it but by death.
Considering they had to encode all the loans...I kind of think Suhm had at least gotten a verbal nod from Augustus and/or Brühl that he was going to leave as soon as Fritz became king.
It is kind of the exact opposite of Hoym!
OTOH, Suhm was never the most powerful minister, and after 4 years in Russia, he probably didn't know that many secrets about what was going on back home.
Still - the Saxons want to overthrow the Polish constitution and Suhm doesn't just know about this plan, he's brokered it and partly developed it, and one would think THAT is not something Brühl wants to share with the new King in Prussia.
I mean, August the Strong has been trying to overthrow the Polish constitution and partition Poland and has been telling FW and Peter the Great about it and trying to get them on board since...1720 at least, probably 1696. So that part's not a secret. But the specific "let's work with Russia to keep Prussia in line," yeah, that might be a secret. (Though it might not be, the Saxony/Prussia rivalry is kind of a known thing, and how early did the signs of the Fritz/Brühl antagonism begin?)
Re why Suhm was recalled, Fritz or Lynar: probably both.
July 2: Suhm reports that he didn't wait to ask for his dismissal after learning of FW's death, but asked immediately.
August 3: Suhm reports that he's finally gotten his dismissal.
August 23: Ivan VI born.
October (early): Ivan VI is named heir to the throne, with Anna Leopoldovna as regent.
October 28: Anna Ivanovna dies, making Anna Leopoldovna regent.
I don't have a date for exactly when Lynar was appointed envoy, but he arrived in January. I suspect the Saxons knew Anna Ivanova was on her last legs even in July, and so they were more willing to let Suhm go. They didn't have absolute certainty, though, and sickly monarchs have been known to hang on longer than you expect (Carlos II of Spain, Elizaveta, etc.). So the proximate cause was definitely
their desire to spy onFritz.I still suspect Suhm let his bosses know in advance, though, and that's why permission was so forthcoming, and why he and Fritz didn't hesitate to put their plans in plaintext in letters.
Maybe Suhm was just exuding trustworthiness.
I mean, that's my headcanon! (Other than the fact that he never had Hoym's power and access to secrets--he had been a private citizen for 6 years, then 4 years over in St. Petersburg--and the fact that he probably would have made a great spy, if he could be induced to do it (which I agree he probably wouldn't, but I'm sure he would have tried to smooth things over between Saxony and Prussia if opportunities arose, and would have been a useful contact for the Saxons in Prussia), but also, yes, he'd probably proven himself.)
Whereas Suhm presumably was soft spoken and nice to everyone.
Yeah, my headcanon was always that he was outwardly "diplomatic" and quiet, but in his head, a lot of wheels were turning.
Question: if Fritz actually liked Hoym, as opposed to finding him useful, could this be another reason as to why he had it in so much for Brühl later?
It's possible. We should keep an eye out for any signs he liked Hoym. I mean, driving someone you likedto commit suicide *would* be the kind of thing you'd hold a grudge over...
Re: Saxon archives
Date: 2023-04-05 06:40 am (UTC)Also, thinking about the two cases further, there's a difference between Suhm being open about his friendship with Fritz and his ultimate intention of joining him once FW dies and Hoym conducting a secret correspondence and making a secret pledge (in addition to the differences between the two men's positions and state of knowledge about Saxon interior matters).
Given that Suhm wrote a solid Fritz assessment for Brühl 1739/1740ish (and on time when Brühl asked for it, as opposed to Manteuffel not finishing his), I could see Brühl seeing this as a furhter confirmation in his opinion that Suhm is trustworthy and solidly Saxon, and could be persuaded to continuing furthering Saxon interests (in whichever fashion) while he's with Fritz. (Again, it's not that I think Suhm would have necessarily done that but that Brühl in 1740 had reasons to believe he would based on Suhm's professional conduct in the last four years.)
It's possible. We should keep an eye out for any signs he liked Hoym. I mean, driving someone you likedto commit suicide *would* be the kind of thing you'd hold a grudge over...
Quite. We might be overthinking it and it really was just politics (i.e. blaming Brühl for being diplomatically foiled a few times plus his share in the Diplomatic Revolution plus a convenient scapegoat for the ruin of Saxony), but there was so much targetted viciousness that it's hard not to see it as personal. (Hence Hohenzollern historians feeling the need to explain it by noble Fritz being that indignant that evil favourite Brühl managed to squeeze so much money out of Saxony as to get himself all those palaces and avenging the Saxon people by destroying all the Brühl property.) I mean, I still like your idea that young Brühl might have tipped off FW at Zeithain, too, but in order for Brühl to having been in a position to do so, it would have needed him to be informed of Fritz and Katte approaching Hoym in real time, and if that had been the case, the accusation much later that Hoym kept the information to himself would not have worked. I mean, Hoym could have just said "but you and our King and the King in Prussia talked about this at the time, what do you mean, keeping it secret?!?" and he didn't.) (Pinchon quotes Hoym's defenses, and this wasn't it.)
Reminder
Re: Saxon archives
Date: 2023-04-05 10:56 am (UTC)Yes, this is very true. That's part of how Suhm exudes trustworthiness, I say! :D
Given that Suhm wrote a solid Fritz assessment for Brühl 1739/1740ish (and on time when Brühl asked for it, as opposed to Manteuffel not finishing his)
Hahaha. Manteuffel: But I had so much to say that I ran out of time!*
* I am reminded of the time I got an A on the Latin historical linguistics qualifying exam in grad school and the guy who knew much more than I did got a B, because he ran out of time to write down everything he knew.
I still like your idea that young Brühl might have tipped off FW at Zeithain
That was Jürgen Luh's idea! He wrote a paper on it, which I reported to salon. I'm not even convinced, I just think it's a possibility.
it would have needed him to be informed of Fritz and Katte approaching Hoym in real time, and if that had been the case, the accusation much later that Hoym kept the information to himself would not have worked.
I'm not sure this is the case. Hoym being accused of not reporting things through official channels is not the same as a third party reporting that they've observed and/or heard rumors of Fritz and Katte acting shady around Hoym's tent. Brühl doesn't need to have told FW "Hoym told me what Fritz and Katte said," he just needs to have said, "Btw, a lot of suspicious activity going on, thought you might like to know."
I mean, everyone already knew Fritz wanted to escape, so putting 2 and 2 together would not have been hard.
Re: Saxon archives
Date: 2023-04-05 01:18 pm (UTC)Re: Saxon archives
Date: 2023-04-06 02:13 pm (UTC)You're awesome, but we knew that. :)
So after downloading the whole volume, it turns out that I am awesome, but in a different way than we thought.
None of the letters in this volume are by our Suhm, all are by Nicolas. It's just that:
1. I was apparently right that Nicolas will break out his best handwriting when making an effort. Which means I think I was right that Hedwig and Peter Keith are doing the same, even though I don't have other handwriting samples in their case.
2. These two Suhm brothers have very similar handwriting when not making an effort. Maybe they had the same tutor growing up! (They were 6 years apart in age, so it's not impossible.)
So what this means is:
1. I don't actually know what Nicolaus was writing about in 1736 that made it look to me like he was repeatedly soliciting a position and there was talk of pensions (and Ruppin!), but it doesn't surprise me there's some overlap in the vocabulary. There is a fair bit of talk about FW (le roi de Prusse).
2. We don't actually have our Suhm's letters.
I might still see what I can do with the Nicolaus letters at some point: there is a lot of talk of Prussia, and maybe it will give us some interesting insights.
Re: Saxon archives
Date: 2023-04-06 02:17 pm (UTC)- Mildred, obviously
Re: Saxon archives
Date: 2023-04-06 02:45 pm (UTC)Re: Saxon archives
Date: 2023-04-06 05:21 pm (UTC)Enjoy your holidays with your family. :)
Re: Saxon archives
Date: 2023-04-07 06:03 pm (UTC)Re: Saxon archives
Date: 2023-04-10 01:14 pm (UTC)Brühl's original instructions to Suhm: Hauptstaatsarchiv Dresden, Loc. 3026, Vo. I.
Suhm's short note from September 15th where he says he had a extrarordinarily successful conversation with Biron but wants to report the content verbally to his brother is alas only paraphrased, not quoted, and thus not footnoted.
Suhm to Brühl about Anna Leopoldovna declaring she'd rather die than marry Anton Ulrich, otoh, is quoted and thus we have:
Hauptstaatsarchiv Dresden, Loc. 3026
Suhm's letter from Dec. 18th 1739 where he prophecies the Russians will go after Poland one day and develops his own Realpolitik plan for Poland: Also
Hauptstaatsarchiv Dresden, Loc. 3026.
Re: Saxon archives
Date: 2023-04-10 01:29 pm (UTC)Well, the plan is for me to finish reading up on the Danes, then go back to French, then acquire the ability to read handwritten French a whole lot faster. Then it might make sense to check out 7 volumes of Suhm correspondence. Maybe by then they'll have digitized it.
Thanks anyway!