cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 42

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Last post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.

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From:

selenak

It's possible that by the time it was 1740, he'd proven himself and you're right that they *wanted* him to go spy on Fritz.

Also, thinking about the two cases further, there's a difference between Suhm being open about his friendship with Fritz and his ultimate intention of joining him once FW dies and Hoym conducting a secret correspondence and making a secret pledge (in addition to the differences between the two men's positions and state of knowledge about Saxon interior matters).

Given that Suhm wrote a solid Fritz assessment for Brühl 1739/1740ish (and on time when Brühl asked for it, as opposed to Manteuffel not finishing his), I could see Brühl seeing this as a furhter confirmation in his opinion that Suhm is trustworthy and solidly Saxon, and could be persuaded to continuing furthering Saxon interests (in whichever fashion) while he's with Fritz. (Again, it's not that I think Suhm would have necessarily done that but that Brühl in 1740 had reasons to believe he would based on Suhm's professional conduct in the last four years.)

It's possible. We should keep an eye out for any signs he liked Hoym. I mean, driving someone you likedto commit suicide *would* be the kind of thing you'd hold a grudge over...

Quite. We might be overthinking it and it really was just politics (i.e. blaming Brühl for being diplomatically foiled a few times plus his share in the Diplomatic Revolution plus a convenient scapegoat for the ruin of Saxony), but there was so much targetted viciousness that it's hard not to see it as personal. (Hence Hohenzollern historians feeling the need to explain it by noble Fritz being that indignant that evil favourite Brühl managed to squeeze so much money out of Saxony as to get himself all those palaces and avenging the Saxon people by destroying all the Brühl property.) I mean, I still like your idea that young Brühl might have tipped off FW at Zeithain, too, but in order for Brühl to having been in a position to do so, it would have needed him to be informed of Fritz and Katte approaching Hoym in real time, and if that had been the case, the accusation much later that Hoym kept the information to himself would not have worked. I mean, Hoym could have just said "but you and our King and the King in Prussia talked about this at the time, what do you mean, keeping it secret?!?" and he didn't.) (Pinchon quotes Hoym's defenses, and this wasn't it.)

Reminder

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Also, thinking about the two cases further, there's a difference between Suhm being open about his friendship with Fritz and his ultimate intention of joining him once FW dies and Hoym conducting a secret correspondence and making a secret pledge (in addition to the differences between the two men's positions and state of knowledge about Saxon interior matters).

Yes, this is very true. That's part of how Suhm exudes trustworthiness, I say! :D

Given that Suhm wrote a solid Fritz assessment for Brühl 1739/1740ish (and on time when Brühl asked for it, as opposed to Manteuffel not finishing his)

Hahaha. Manteuffel: But I had so much to say that I ran out of time!*

* I am reminded of the time I got an A on the Latin historical linguistics qualifying exam in grad school and the guy who knew much more than I did got a B, because he ran out of time to write down everything he knew.

I still like your idea that young Brühl might have tipped off FW at Zeithain

That was Jürgen Luh's idea! He wrote a paper on it, which I reported to salon. I'm not even convinced, I just think it's a possibility.

it would have needed him to be informed of Fritz and Katte approaching Hoym in real time, and if that had been the case, the accusation much later that Hoym kept the information to himself would not have worked.

I'm not sure this is the case. Hoym being accused of not reporting things through official channels is not the same as a third party reporting that they've observed and/or heard rumors of Fritz and Katte acting shady around Hoym's tent. Brühl doesn't need to have told FW "Hoym told me what Fritz and Katte said," he just needs to have said, "Btw, a lot of suspicious activity going on, thought you might like to know."

I mean, everyone already knew Fritz wanted to escape, so putting 2 and 2 together would not have been hard.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Btw, you have a "Reminder" at the end of the comment. Did you mean to finish that, or did it get copy-pasted from something else you were composing simultaneously?