cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 42

Last post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.

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From:

selenak

So I was reading your Suhm write-up, Mildred, which contains the lines:

Then in 1737, shortly after Fritz moved into Rheinsberg, Suhm got an assignment to go be Saxon envoy to St. Petersburg. He really didn't want to go. But he convinced himself it was the right thing to do. Fritz really didn't want him to

Given that we now know the Saxon archive proves Suhm tried, repeatedly, not on an impulse but several times, to get back to being assigned as an envoy, as opposed to staying a private citizen with Fritz, shouldn’t one modify this to “he told Fritz he really did not want to go”?

Mind you: wanting to get back into Saxon services doesn’t mean he didn’t enjoy his time with Fritz. FW wasn’t really old, and despite his various health problems, for all Suhm knew, FW was going to live a decade or more longer. He had children to care for. I don’t know how his finances were in the mid 1730s, but that pension definitely was less than what he got as an envoy, I assume. He might even have hoped he’d be again appointed as envoy to Prussia, though I doubt that, given FW’s general attitude towards him and the fact the next officlal Saxon envoy got along with FW better. And it’s also possible he didn’t want to live the private citizen life any longer because he wanted to work, and he knew that FW aside, he was good at being an envoy.

In conclusion, I’m not saying that Suhm was like Algarotti, who really did want to leave in the end, but I also think whatever he told Fritz, the fact that he actively campaigned for that assignment means there has to be at least a question mark over his professed reluctance to leave, which could just as well be practised psychology and the awareness it is what you tell Fritz who has very blatant and understandable issues about people he’s attached to leaving…

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I definitely need to rephrase that, because we already knew (or at least I did) that his finances were in a terrible state and he was actively campaigning to get back into Saxon service. What he complained about to Fritz was having to go so far away to such a terrible climate as St. Petersburg.

Now, maybe he actually wanted that particular assignment. But it wasn't uncommon for envoys to complain about the assignments they were given (or that they were sent as envoys at all instead of being given ministerial positions at home). But given that St. Petersburg *was* so remote you wouldn't see anyone back home for a long time (I was pleasantly surprised to see that he did get to see his brother Nicolas at all), given that complaining about the climate was common, and given that Russia was kind of not a prestigious assignment (this is the time of Anna Ivanovna), I'm willing to believe it came as an unpleasant surprise.

Do we know if Suhm
- Wanted an envoy position specifically?
- Wanted St. Petersburg specifically?

Because his brother had a position as minister in Dresden, and I had the impression that Suhm either wanted that (envoys usually do, with some exceptions), or some better envoy assignment, but I'm not the one who read AvB, and I could be wrong.

(One day I will be the one who's read Suhm's letters in the archives. If I download the images, that will help a lot; yesterday I was just browsing on the site to get a sense of what was out there.)

Edited Date: 2023-04-04 07:14 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

(One day I will be the one who's read Suhm's letters in the archives. If I download the images, that will help a lot; yesterday I was just browsing on the site to get a sense of what was out there.)

Update: the website is scrapable! I can download whole volumes in one go with my algorithms!

This is beautiful.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Okay, I *knew* I had seen Suhm tell Fritz he was looking for a job, and Fritz wish him luck. Now that I'm off work, I've had a chance to browse the letters, and sure enough:

Suhm writes on August 6, 1736, from Dresden:

I have made use of the interval to ramble round the country, and renew some old connexions.--How melancholy it is, My Lord, at a certain age, to be reduced to seek an establishment!

Fritz writes back, August 15:

You will be surprised, astonished, perhaps, my dear Diaphane, that I do not pity such a man as you, reduced to seek an establishment. It is your Court I pity, whose eyes are fascinated in such a manner, that they cannot distinguish subjects useful and worthy of being employed, from those who are only distinguished by fortune, or the blind caprices of favour.--How is it possible, (let it be said without flattery) that a person of so much merit, sense, and knowledge, should be neglected, and even forgotten? and what idea can we form of a Court where the Suhms are not respected and fought after?

I can't speak for the Dresden court specifically, but my impression is that envoys rarely had a say in where they were posted. I remember Chesterfield, when he was made ambassador to The Hague (where his staff helped Peter escape), delayed his departure as long as possible because what he'd really wanted was a post at home.

Re finances, earlier in the year (Mar 10), Wilhelmine had written:

I suspect little Diablotin - for this is how we used to call Suhm back in the day, didn't we? - needs his own philosophy dearly; for he isn't popular at court, and in a bad financial position.

and Fritz wrote back (Mar 25):

"The circumstances of Diaphane or Diablotin have been ordered somewhat for the better, so he can dedicate himself more to philosophy now.

Which I assume is the pension: better than nothing but not as good as an "establishment."

Edited Date: 2023-04-04 10:32 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

Good point about Suhm not necessarily wanting an envoy position when he wants a rehiring. In addition to his brother, there's also the precedent of Manteuffel going from Saxon envoy in Berlin to Saxon cabinet minister under his and Suhm's deceased patron Flemming. So Suhm might have been gunning for a job in the cabinet or at any rate in Dresden, not as envoy. (Or, like I said, as envoy but not in St. Petersburg.)

BTW, Suhm's finances are another argument for him taking all his children and his sister with him when he goes to St. Petersburg, because otherwise, he'd have to pay for the upkeep of an entire household in Berlin in addition to his other expenses - and we know envoy salaries of envoys are notoriously slow to arrive.

Speaking of envoys to St. Petersburg, what was the name again of the English one in whose entourage Algarotti attended the Anna Leopoldovna/Anton Ulrich wedding?

BTW, I brushed up my Horowski, and saw that despite Elizaveta having made a show of kicking out many of the Germans which had accumulated in administration positions during Anna Ivanova's and Anna Leopoldovna's reign at the start of hers, there were will enough left so that speaking German was a major plus for envoys being sent to St. Peterburg (not to mention that of course Peter the not yet III. spoke it better than Russian for the obvious reasons) - and H-W even after his years in Dresden, Berlin and Vienna still did not speak a word of it. (Poniatowski did speak German, which was one of the arguments H-W used for P getting hired as his secretary at British government expenses.) And of course he did not speak Russian, either, and as he apologizes in his letters to Catherine, wasn't the best in French. But sure, Wilhelmine was the one only pretending to be learned.

Anyway: Suhm being fluent in French and of course in German certainly would have been a plus in the Anna Ivanova era, and AvB's argument as to why Brühl picked him for St. Petersburg once Lynar needed replacing (that the openly known Fritz friendship means even paranoid Prussia would not immediately believe Saxony is pursuing anti Prussian policies via Suhm) is plausible enough, but depending how up Suhm was on gossip, he might not have known Lynar did need replacing when asking for a job and thus very unaware St. Petersburg was even an option, so I see your point about the possibility of him being unpleasantly surprised at the nature of his post.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

BTW, Suhm's finances are another argument for him taking all his children and his sister with him when he goes to St. Petersburg, because otherwise, he'd have to pay for the upkeep of an entire household in Berlin in addition to his other expenses - and we know envoy salaries of envoys are notoriously slow to arrive.

Yes, and as I recall, the archive catalogue indicated that Hedwig was still trying to get the posthumous backpay owed her brother in the 1740s!

Speaking of envoys to St. Petersburg, what was the name again of the English one in whose entourage Algarotti attended the Anna Leopoldovna/Anton Ulrich wedding?

Lord Baltimore. As I recall, Fritz liked him too.

But sure, Wilhelmine was the one only pretending to be learned.

Hahaha. Look, it's hard to be an Anglophone where the system doesn't teach you languages! (I consider myself learned but unfortunately monolingual.)

depending how up Suhm was on gossip, he might not have known Lynar did need replacing when asking for a job and thus very unaware St. Petersburg was even an option

Matzke, author of the dissertation on Saxon diplomacy, says they didn't even inform Suhm after they gave him the post! Oh, look, checking again, Matzke also says Brühl totally planned to send Lynar back later, which could be what AvB is getting at.