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cahnLast post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.
Re: 1730s Saxon Diplomacy: Suhm
Date: 2023-04-01 03:49 pm (UTC)Manteuffel: Send Tall Guys.
ROFL. That's Saxon diplomacy for you!
Friedrich was struck by this very logical reply, and returned indiginant that Prussia was no playground for foreign armies.
This made me laugh extra considering I've seen one historian describe the Second Silesian War along the lines of "Saxony had decided that it was after all a state and not a highway..." (
promote what was partly an anti Prussian policy precisely because Suhm was known to be a friend of Fritz and thus paranoid and jealous Prussia would not believe this to be the case. Be that as it may, based on the reports Suhm was a pro and did his best for Saxony, as his job, and did not secretly forward information of the ongoing negotiatons to Fritz.
Wow, I am so glad you read this book! This is a great characterization touch we didn't have: I *didn't* know Suhm's negotiations in Russia were partly anti-Prussian (it surprises me not, since Prussia and Saxony were enemies for reasons I have discussed at great length in my own Saxony foreign policy write-ups), because indeed, Suhm did not tell Fritz this.
Bühl isn't going "my way or the high way" , he wants opinions and initiative from his diplomatic staff, even critique, which Suhm delivers and for which Brühl thanks him. I don't have to tell you how unlike a certain someone this is, do I? Brühl: your dream boss.
Hee! Yeah, Fritz this is not.
Suhm reports a very successful conversation with Biron to Brühl, but so delicate in nature that he does not want to put it in writing but wants Brühl to send his brother the Legationsrat (presumably Nicholas) to him so he can give the verbal report to his brother who in turn will give it to Brühl.
Oh, interesting! I love the thought of these two working together like that. That's also an interesting characterization touch. For both of them, really. Given that, I'm glad they at least got to see each other between when Suhm left for St. Petersburg and when Nicolas arrived in Warsaw one day after he died.
Anna Leopoldovna: YOU? An icky upstart's son?!? *goes to Anna Ivanova* I've changed my mind. I'm marrying Anton Ulrich.
Hahaha. I enjoyed this whole soap opera development, which you presented in a very entertaining fashion.
no foreign power, however great, can pursue them into the the unending steppe.
Smart man, Suhm.
Indeed! And, I mean, he was old enough to remember Poltava, where Karl XII got his armies crushed pursuing the Russians into the unending steppe.
Suhm will also predict that Fritz will be willing to make war on princes he personally likes, which I can only take as an allusion to FS.
Suhm furtherly thinks that England plans another war with France
Note that the War of Jenkins' Ear with Spain had just begun, so it wasn't a huge leap from there to concluding that France would be sucked into it.
I love seeing this whole plan and Suhm's day job as an envoy and not just as an author of touching letters to Fritz. The compartmentalization must have been interesting!
Russia would keep Prussia in line
This is going to be Brühl's plan through the 1740s and 50s, so yeah, that's Saxon foreign policy for you. Very interesting that he proposes this plan and then gets permission to go join Fritz--we know A3 the Chill okayed it, I wonder what Brühl thought.
FW dies, Anna Ivanova dies, MT's Dad dies, Suhm dies
As a chronological reminder, the last 3 of these deaths happen within the space of 3 weeks, late October to early November.
Re: 1730s Saxon Diplomacy: Suhm
Date: 2023-04-02 12:37 pm (UTC):) Not just Saxon diplomacy. I dare say that would have been the advice of any envoy who had come into contact with FW.
"Saxony had decided that it was after all a state and not a highway..."
ROTFLOL.
This is a great characterization touch we didn't have
IKR? It really adds another dimension to Suhm. As far as his envoy life was concerned, we only knew he didn't vibe with FW in which he was hardly unique, so it didn't say that much about his job skills. (As opposed to H-W managing to piss everyone off at every court except for his early time in Russia.) It also shows that Fritz' idea that Suhm was too delicate a nature to get along with Russians was somewhat mistaken - Suhm did just fine in his negotiations with Bad Boy Biron - , but presumably based on seeing Suhm as the opposite of FW and knowing Suhm hated the FW life style (despite having to become a member of the Society Against Sobriety).
Oh, interesting! I love the thought of these two working together like that. That's also an interesting characterization touch. For both of them, really. Given that, I'm glad they at least got to see each other between when Suhm left for St. Petersburg and when Nicolas arrived in Warsaw one day after he died.
Indeed, which we hadn't known before, either. BTW, did Nicolas stay in Prussia with Hedwig and the kids, or did he return to Saxony, do we know?
The compartmentalization must have been interesting!
Quite. But then he's living in a century where your enemy of yesterday can become your ally of tomorrow, and people like Eugene who change sides ONCE (if it can be called that, given he never had a job at court or in the army while still in France) and stay committed are the exception, not the rule, while people like Katte's granddad who as one of the F1 biographers pointed out fought for a couple of enemies in a row are more the rule. So Suhm hoping that in the long term, his future lay with Fritz but in the present working for Saxony which included pursuing anti Prussian policies isn't THAT unusual.
Suhm basically sketching out an overthrow of the Polish Constitution and a complete takeover by the Saxon monarchy also shows his own capacity for ruthless plans. (AvB: IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER FOR THE POLES! NO POLISH PARTITION!) If he indeed got Biron to greenlight this on Anna Ivanova's behalf and this was the verbal report entrusted to Nicholas, it would have been quite the coup Suhm would have managed for Brühl and Saxony, on a scale with Heinrich delivering the first Partition to Fritz. (Mind you, I think everyone was deluded when imaginging the Poles would have just gone along with this without massive resistance fighting, occupying troops be damned.)
Very interesting that he proposes this plan and then gets permission to go join Fritz--we know A3 the Chill okayed it, I wonder what Brühl thought.
"Excellent. He can take over Manteuffel's old spying network, and since Fritz actually wants him there, will be in a far better position to send me juicy insider reports."
(Err, not that Suhm would have done that, but maybe Brühl thought he might and thus okayed the move?)
Re: 1730s Saxon Diplomacy: Suhm
Date: 2023-04-02 04:20 pm (UTC)I had the same thought! I almost added, "Saxon diplomacy is European diplomacy." Salon hive mind. ;)
IKR? It really adds another dimension to Suhm. As far as his envoy life was concerned, we only knew he didn't vibe with FW in which he was hardly unique, so it didn't say that much about his job skills.
We had figured out a couple things, like what kind of diplomat he was (the kind that is quiet and spins things in a *diplomatic* manner, not the more flamboyant Manteuffel kind), and I remember us concluding that he was pro-wars of aggression and would have been fine with Fritz invading Silesia. But the fact that he was getting copies of the Life of Eugene in St. Petersburg while negotiating an anti-Prussian treaty and coming up with realpolitik plans to keep Prussia in check does add a new dimension!
It also shows that Fritz' idea that Suhm was too delicate a nature to get along with Russians was somewhat mistaken - Suhm did just fine in his negotiations with Bad Boy Biron - , but presumably based on seeing Suhm as the opposite of FW and knowing Suhm hated the FW life style (despite having to become a member of the Society Against Sobriety).
Haha, well, I always figured a big part of Fritz's thinking here was a need to rationalize why Suhm shouldn't
have any higher priorities than himleave him.BTW, did Nicolas stay in Prussia with Hedwig and the kids, or did he return to Saxony, do we know?
Wikipedia tells me he returned to Saxony and was used as an envoy again.
Quite. But then he's living in a century where your enemy of yesterday can become your ally of tomorrow, and people like Eugene who change sides ONCE (if it can be called that, given he never had a job at court or in the army while still in France) and stay committed are the exception
Exactly what I was thinking.
"Excellent. He can take over Manteuffel's old spying network, and since Fritz actually wants him there, will be in a far better position to send me juicy insider reports."
(Err, not that Suhm would have done that, but maybe Brühl thought he might and thus okayed the move?)
You know, you're reminding me that I did read something very like this somewhere. Maybe it was Brühl! Anyway, it makes total sense. (Wonder if he expected Lynar to spy on Anna Leopoldovna and green-lighted the switch to Russian service for that reason.)
Re: 1730s Saxon Diplomacy: Suhm
Date: 2023-04-17 12:16 am (UTC)Oh right! The unending steppe: crushing armies for centuries!