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cahnAnd including Emperor Joseph II!
from Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790:
Joseph's alleged comment to Mozart about the Entführung, "Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like, "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstrous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question were those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.
(though not gonna lie, I think it is a LOT of notes)
from Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790:
Joseph's alleged comment to Mozart about the Entführung, "Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like, "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstrous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question were those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.
(though not gonna lie, I think it is a LOT of notes)
From last post: Joseph, FW, rebellious princesses
Date: 2022-01-14 05:55 am (UTC)IDK, I can totally see him being very genuine and heartfelt (and awkward in a genuine way) in letters and in close relationships (like with the Five Princesses), and being not-emo-enough and too sarcastic and/or awkward in an offputting way with everyone else, especially when it intersected with his idealism. This is basically just bolstering my view of him as Quintessential Geek :) And this is why I am so fascinated by him, because I totally empathize with the type :D If I were an absolulte monarch and raised as one, I'd totally be like him! (well, probably not as sarcastic, but only because I'm not very good at coming out with sarcastic quips, I would if I could!)
Aaaanyway. What's always worth remembering is that in the last years of his life, FW was in constant physical pain due to his illnesses, and his idea of self medication was to drink, which didn't help his general temper problem. If you're in constant pain and have a hair trigger temper, you lash out at familiar targets. For FW, these were his oldest children, Gundling, G2 and (if she brought up the English marriage project or otherwise argued with him), SD.
:( Yeah, thanks for the reminder -- I don't imagine I'd do well being in constant pain either. Though, ugh.
You won't be surprised that the Marquis d'Aiseau would dare to aspire to a queen, but what's really surprising is that such a well-formed young man would fall in love with such a little monster.
Hee. But seriously, Weber's account has the virtue not only that Louise Elisabeth comes out much more sympathetic, but it also just seems a lot more believable to me!
Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-14 07:29 am (UTC)Maria Carolina: well, you know my main criticism of the Maria Carolina sections in Goldstone's book was that "she was loved by everyone in Naples, and those few revolutionaries were basically deluded or paid by the French" is not the takeaway I had of the Neapolitan revolution. I didn't question "the husband was stupid and uselessl, but she had the upper hand and made it work for her" because that was Horowski's take as well. I don't recall either of them mentioning Ferdinand had infected her with STDs, a sore in the vagina, or marital rape in the later 1780s.
Also forgot to mention this, since we've been wondering: there is nothing in either Beales volume about Maria Christina/Mimi showing Joseph Isabella's letters to herself. Unless Goldstone has another source, she must have made it up.
Leopold's secret 1784 memorandum is the Relazione, yes. It's basically "why Joseph sucks, let me count the ways, with some flashbacks to why Mom sucked, too". Beales thinks some of the criticism is valid and earned while other parts are either exaggarated or demonstrably untrue, which he argues by presenting Zinzendorf's diary (Zinzendorf was an MT era veteran and politically very much against Joseph's ideas, so his diary offering counter testimony to some of Leopold's claims is pretty valid), various letters from contemporaries and, with a bit more sceptism, Joseph friendly memoirists like the Prince de Ligne (RPF writer extraordinaire, but he did write about his own life as well) or Lorenzo da Ponte (Joseph was my Emperor and patron! Fuck yeah!).
In terms of sibling Joseph critique, Beales gives the most weight not to Leopold or Maria Christina but to youngest brother Max Ernst. MT had gone to some effort to get him alected as Archbishop and thus Prince Elector of Cologne. In medieval and Renaissance times, this was the most prestigious and important position any German cleric could have, because not only was the Prince Bishop of Cologne part of the Princes Elector who voted the Emperor into power (or not), he was the one conducting the coronation, and his vote usually held the most influence among the clerical Princes. (When we had decades long feudings between noble families as to who would get to be Emperor in the 12th century, getting the Prince Bishop of Cologne on your side was key.) By the time of the 18th Century, and the decline of the HRE, it wasn't this important in terms of international and day to day politics, but it was still an office of incluence, and also, it offered Max Ernst the chance to interact with representatives of other German states on a daily basis and watch inner HRE politics for which neither of his older brothers had much patience. This led Max Ernst to write to Leopold:
Germany was useful to (FS), useless and even dangerous to Joseph. The explanation of the difference is dunbtedly to be found in the two emperors' manner of ruling. Our father, easy, polite, affable, upright, reigned over all hearts. The empress, gracious and generous, supported him marvellously. The princes of the Empire were attracted to Vienna, were amused, flattered, manipulated, and were full of it when they got back. The ecclesiastical princces were treated with the greatest consideration, and the canons found ample satisfaction for their interest and ambition in the chapters and bishoprics of the heritiary lands, in the abbeys of Hungary, in the invariably effective reccommendations made by the Imperial Court to the Pope. Not even the smallest election took place without the influence of the Imperial Court preponderating, and its creatures, finding themselves looked after, remained totally devoted to the House of Austria. The lesser princes and counts were honoured with places in the army (...) or in the civil service. The Theresianum an the Savoy College attracted many noblemen from the Empire, who then dispersed to all parts of Germany, regarding Vienna as their second home, imbued with its principles and keeping up their connections there. It was by all these means that (FS) caused the Empire to act (on his behalf) in the Seven Years War against its own interests.
Whereas Joseph, after his initial attempts at reform had been rejected
absolutely neglected to cultivate individuals and paid more attention to a simple (Hungarian) guard than to a prince of the Empire, and wouldn't give any favours to imperial nobles, considering them mere spongers and intriguers, which was bound to alienate them. Instead of the favours they were accustomed to receive, they came up against a gracious code of regulations. The Hungarian abbeys were suppressed, you could only get a canonry after ten years in a cure of souls. Papal support was cut off, (...) ministers were prohibited form interfering in elections (...) The Colleges were abolished or (effectively) restricted to the local inhabitants. Every military rank above cadet was prohibited to (imperial nobles). And the only hope for promotion was seniority. Moreover, no Court - and therefore no distinction - and French marquises and English milords were feted while I saw canons and knights of true merit relagated to the lower table and the company of imperial agents.(...) This is certainly not the way to win hearts and minds.
Comments Beales: Here speaks the authentic voice of the ancient régime. . He could have added that Max Ernst is a bit rose-eyed re: how far FS was able to make the German princes support Team Austria in the 7 Years War. Yes, Fritz was put into the Reichsacht for invading Saxony, but his hero of the Protestant faith pose certainly mattered more to the Protestant princes in practice. But unlike Leopold, whose resentment always comes with the conviction he'd be able to do a better job in Joseph's place, and who knew he would get that job once Joseph died, Max Ernst didn't have a personal horse in that race.
Mildred:
Also, as I recall, he was writing in invisible ink to his siblings, because he knew Joseph was reading his mail. But, says Beales, he obviously didn't switch to the lemon juice soon enough, because one of his non-invisible ink letters was read by Joseph and was critical enough of Joseph to cause bad feelings/problems/something I don't have time to look up.
This happened in 1789 (a year before Joseph died), but had a 1788 prehistory. Writes Beales.
At the beginning of October, (Joseph) contrived to give grave offence to Leopold on two counts. He first accused him of having revealed to diplomats secret information supplied by Joseph. Leopold denied the charge, but the emperor sent him the evidence for it, which was difficult to rebut. Although they agreed to drop the matter, Joseph evidently remained suspicious and bacme less confiding. Secondly, when Leopold's daughter, Maria Theresa, came to Vienna en route to marry a son of the elector of Saxony in Dresden, the emperor took the occasion to critisize his brother's upbringing of his children. No doubt, wrote Joseph, Leopold's intentions were good. But
all the more defective must be the method or the teachers. (...) The physical side seems to me as neglected as the moral. They don't know what to do with their arms and legs anymore than they know how to make use in society of the pedantic knowledge that has been stuffed into their heads. I can't find in them any sincerity. They think they're clever if they can boast of having conceiled what they really think.
Joseph thought that Leopold's other children needed to come to Vienna to be properly educated - except that Charles, who had epilepsy, "should either find a cure for it or vegetate unobserved in his sad situation, which he can do much better in Tuscany."
Leopold sent a pained reply saying that Francis had been the most difficult and reserved of all his sons and that Charles was actually the most intelligent. Joseph said that he was 'in despair' if what he had said about the children's education had displeased Leopold. But he went on to complain about the state of their teeth. Further, Theresa didn't know how to curtsey. Joseph had found the elder daughters proud, self-satisfied and deceitful. After this appalling display of cruel insensitivity, however, he agreed that Charles could also come to Vienna. The despised epileptic was to become perhaps Austria's greatest general after Prince Eugene.
Unsurprsingly, after this, Leopold stepped up his "Joseph: the worst!" letters to Mimi and Max Ernst. By 1789, when it was clear to Joseph he would likely die within the year or so, writes Beales:
He seemed to have accepted that he could not live much longer, and he knew from intercepts that Leopold's prudent letters to him veiled an aversion to his despotic policies. The emperor told Trautmannsdorff in June 1789 that he was' sure that intrigue goes on between Florence and Brussels' (i.e Leopold and Mimi) and he had a copy of one of Leopold's letters sent on to prove it. The grand duke had good reason to use lemon-jice as an invisible ink when writing to his sister, but he evidently should have taken the precaution earlier. It must therefore have been clear to Joseph that his brother, if he succeeded, would not m aintain all his legislation intact. Yet he set forth on a collision course, reviving and exarbating almost every possible grievance in every province. One can only wonder at the dedication and willpower of the dying emperor in his desperate campaign to bring his policies to fruition. It was magnificent, but it was not politics.
Mildred asked: omeone I was reading recently--I can't remember if it was Beales--was casting Leopold's interest in constitutionalism as lip service, since the Tuscans never actually got a constitution out of him. Thoughts?
Don't recall this from Beales, though maybe I overlooked it, can't comment without a Leopold biography.
How much in danger was Pesne for that painting?
Date: 2022-01-14 09:48 am (UTC)sonssuns in 1739>:could FW have done anything worse than kick him out? Like lock him up or anything?
On the one hand: Pesne is a civilian, not a member of the army or a civil servant. While he does have an office - court painter - from which FW can dismiss him, painting a sunrise while some dark clouds fade away does not qualify as a crime. I'm also not sure whether Pesne was a Prussian citizen or retained his French citizenship. So I'm tempted to say "no".
On the other hand: being a civilian did Gundling a fat lot of good, and his attempt to leave Prussia was still called "desertion" by FW. So while I don't think FW - if he'd survived - would have locked up Pesne, he might have, if he didn't fire him and bid him leave the country on the spot, resorted to bullying tactics, of which he had many. Though: Pesne had the international acclaim and guaranteed livelihood Gundling lacked. I'd say the first time FW sets his wig on fire or puts a bear anywhere near him, Pesne leaves for France or Saxony or, hey, Vienna or Hannover.
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-15 06:49 pm (UTC)I mean... the number of people I feel like I would talk to about my sex life is very, very small, and actually zero if you count people who are local to me. But then again I guess my sex life doesn't affect the entire nation; if it did, adversely, I guess I can grudgingly name a few local people I'd talk to about it, so, okay.
Unlike Goldstone, Beales does't think Louis XVI was autistic, but sees the fact he wasn't able to talk to anyone (including his doctors, his brothers and any given courtier) about sex until a fellow monarch and brother-in-law came to town as telling about the status of a French King in the 1770s.
Interesting! I'm looking forward to reading Zweig and seeing how I feel about Louis XVI after reading that. Goldstone definitely made a case for it, but then again she has made a case for a lot of things that aren't true :P But I could see him being the kind of on-the-spectrum that is reasonably high-functioning (so wouldn't maybe ping someone as autistic who isn't sort of living in that world) but that still is a problem for figuring out subtle social cues. But maybe he was just isolated and NT awkward, who knows.
Also forgot to mention this, since we've been wondering: there is nothing in either Beales volume about Maria Christina/Mimi showing Joseph Isabella's letters to herself. Unless Goldstone has another source, she must have made it up.
Yeah, I am gonna trust Beales here. This is big enough that he would totally have talked about it if it had actually happened!
Lorenzo da Ponte (Joseph was my Emperor and patron! Fuck yeah!)
Aw, this made me smile :)
absolutely neglected to cultivate individuals and paid more attention to a simple (Hungarian) guard than to a prince of the Empire, and wouldn't give any favours to imperial nobles, considering them mere spongers and intriguers, which was bound to alienate them.
Yeah, I both have a lot of sympathy for him (of course that is the idealistic thing to do! Go Joseph for valuing meritocracy and devaluing aristocracy and nepotism!) and... yeah, that explains a lot (...but how did you think they were going to react to that?)
Re: How much in danger was Pesne for that painting?
Date: 2022-01-15 06:55 pm (UTC)Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-15 09:06 pm (UTC)Everything I've read about the Relazione makes me want to check it out. Preferably after a Leopold bio. Regarding which...
Don't recall this from Beales, though maybe I overlooked it, can't comment without a Leopold biography.
Not Beales, as I suspected. I turned up the passage I was remembering in one of the popular history books I read over the holidays. As for Leopold bios, Stabi has the definitive one, at least as of when Beales was writing. I have no idea whether it's any good, but Beales cites it a lot and described it as "striking", and I'm super curious. :)
Thank you for the Max Ernst perspective, and fleshing out the details of the Joseph-Leopold friction that I'd forgotten!
the Prince de Ligne (RPF writer extraordinaire, but he did write about his own life as well)
Wait, is there any chance he's responsible for Austrian Trenck's apparently fake memoirs too? If Ligne was big into colorful figures who fought for the Austrians...Hmmm.
FW vs. George II
Date: 2022-01-15 09:19 pm (UTC)I would say that it doesn't have to be anything nearly as rational as what you were looking for in that post. If they were getting into fistfights as kids, that suggests that they *already* hated each other, probably for childish reasons. Someone as short-tempered as FW would easily have carried that grudge into adulthood. After all, once you hate someone, you're prone to interpreting everything they do in the worst possible light, and heaping up grudges to add to your resentment. And I see no reason that two monarchs already not known for their warm and fuzzy personalities, who disliked each other intensely as children, would have seen their relations improve after becoming monarchs of countries with conflicting political interests.
It could have been as simple as G2, when they were kids, thinking that he should be able to boss FW around because he was older, and Tiny Terror FW, who pushed chamberlains out of windows when not threatening to throw himself out of a window rather than be told what to do, refusing to go along with it. The situation escalated, and thirty years later, they were still hating on each other. Only now they were squabbling over things like political influence in Mecklenburg and forcibly recruited soldiers.
In conclusion: you were an only child as far as I know, but I had siblings. ;)
Re: FW vs. George II
Date: 2022-01-16 07:57 am (UTC)I still want that AU where the duel happens, though...
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-16 08:27 am (UTC)De Ligne & Austrian Trenck: otoh, sounds like him, otoh, could he, date wise? I thought the Austrian Trenck memoirs appeared within a year or so of Austrian Trenck's death, which is too early for Ligne who is of Joseph's generation?
ETA: However, the Stabi has the Relazione in the original Italian with an English preface by Beales, and also a Tuscany constitution draft from 1787, and Arneth's edition of the Joseph/Leopold correspondence online. (Which means presumably anatomical details of their sisters' sex lives get censured, but still, two volumes are available.)
Re: How much in danger was Pesne for that painting?
Date: 2022-01-16 08:50 am (UTC)Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-16 09:53 am (UTC)Quite. It did occur to me that if it happened, Mimi's husband Albert - who later published (part of) the letters after her death (i.e. a somewhat censored version, but enough to make it clear whom Isabella loved and whom she did not - would have mentioned it in his memoirs. But those Beales is familiar with, and I can't imagine why he wouldn't have mentioned such an emotional bombshell as any of those letters would have been to Joseph.
Aw, this made me smile :)
To be fair, Lorenzo da Ponte's memoirs aren't exactly hardcore realism. Aside from all the "I'm the greatest!" (hardly unique to da Ponte), there's stuff like this: when Leopold after Joseph's death whithdraws imperial patronage from da Ponte, this is of course solely due to the scheming of da Ponte's enemies, who slander him in front of the new Emperor. When da Ponte travels after Leopold to Trieste in order to get reinstated as court poet and supreme opera librettist, the conversation he describes between him and Leopold has him proudly unmasking all the false claims his enemies have made as slander and Leopold agreeing with him that yeah, now he realizes these were all lies and everyone sucks (including Salieri and his mistress for turning againt da Ponte), but somehow, mysteriously, not reinstating da Ponte in his old job after five pages of this.
This said, it's human to like someone who liked and supported you, and da Ponte's "Joseph was cool, had great taste (he adored my stuff!), and only wanted the best!" is as valid a response as Leopold's seething "here's all Joseph did wrong".
Incidentally, I don't know whether I ever linked that pic of the Kapuzinergruft where Joseph is buried with his parents, his simple copper-made coffin vs their baroque magnificence. Very telling about everyone involved - note that the figures representing MT and FS are looking at each other, not to the ceiling/heaven as usually couple depictions on tombs go.That Joseph wanted to be buried in the exact opposite of this, yet with them, just about sums it up. All their differences aside, I do imagine the first thing his parents did when he joined them in the hereafter after his painful death was give him the spiritual equivalent of a big hug.
Re: FW vs. George II
Date: 2022-01-16 02:44 pm (UTC)I want that AU as well! Preferably where they both die, a la the Katte brothers, for maximum satisfaction on the part of the reader, or at least this reader.
ETA: AU where my surviving sister and I are heads of neighboring German states in the 18th century, because there so would have been a duel by now. :P
Leopold bio
Date: 2022-01-16 03:22 pm (UTC)As far as all my googling can tell, the book was written in German, so I'm not sure why, even if there is a Hungarian translation, your library in Germany would have *only* a Hungarian translation (when all the other works they have by this author they have in German--with the exception of one Hungarian one that also looks like a typo).
The subtitle, Erzherzog v. Oesterreich, Großherzog v. Toskana, König v. Ungarn u. Böhmen, Römischer Kaiser, in the catalog entry is in German. I checked, and it is the custom of the Stabi, like most libraries, to list titles in the language of the volume, not to translate them all into German.
The publisher (Herold), years of publication for the two volumes (1963, 1965), and places of publication (Wien, München) listed are the same as for the German edition I'm finding in googling, and which is the same edition Beales used and heavily implied was in German.
The page numbers (450, 457) for each of the volumes match those of the German edition I'm finding exactly. In my experience, translations don't usually have exactly the same page numbers.
According to WorldCat, the Stabi's copy is the only Hungarian edition in the world.
In conclusion, I think it's worth ordering the first volume and seeing if 1) it's in German, 2) it's any good and worth ordering the second volume. If I'm wrong, you can start learning Hungarian. ;)
Re: How much in danger was Pesne for that painting?
Date: 2022-01-16 03:32 pm (UTC)What Wolff and Pesne had in common was they both did things that hit on FW hot buttons: predestination and favoring Fritz, respectively. The big difference between them is that the latter was a foreigner, but I could imagine them both getting the same treatment: "Get out now or face the consequences." (Lèse-majesté carried the death penalty in the 1794 law code, so I can only imagine it did in 1739 as well.)
I wouldn't be surprised if Pesne was banking on getting the exile option that Wolff got and not being subjected to summary execution, since he was a big name (unlike Gundling). And was willing to accept exile, since, as you say, he had other job options.
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-16 03:38 pm (UTC)Checked, and you are correct! I'd forgotten how early they appeared. (1748.) So either Ligne got an early start on his RPF and was publishing at the precocious age of 13, or someone else was doing RPF in the 1740s. Alas!
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-16 03:43 pm (UTC)That Joseph wanted to be buried in the exact opposite of this, yet with them, just about sums it up.
Yes, exactly. Families are so complicated.
All their differences aside, I do imagine the first thing his parents did when he joined them in the hereafter after his painful death was give him the spiritual equivalent of a big hug.
Awww. Yes!
but somehow, mysteriously, not reinstating da Ponte in his old job after five pages of this.
Lololol. Yes, this seems 100% hardcore realism.
This said, it's human to like someone who liked and supported you, and da Ponte's "Joseph was cool, had great taste (he adored my stuff!), and only wanted the best!" is as valid a response as Leopold's seething "here's all Joseph did wrong".
Also true!
Royal Reader question
Date: 2022-01-16 04:10 pm (UTC)What comes naturally to me is "gather data, process data, draw conclusions, write up conclusions." In order to produce a write-up of a single work, I have to read the work 3 times, taking notes the second and third time, and then polish my notes into something coherent. And it's the "second and third time with notes" that makes me go, "Well, I didn't like it that much." Then I wander off and do something more fun, usually in hopes that you're going to bail me out by also reading the book and actually reporting on it for us.
All this is why you guys get one kind of write-up from me (based around a subject) and not another kind (based around a single work).
Are there any tips you can offer?
Re: Royal Reader question
Date: 2022-01-16 06:33 pm (UTC)Since you're not reading physical books: when you mark passages in e-books, add a few words which later help trigger your memory, for example "Caroline on FoW" or "Mitchell?!?" (this was me finding Andrew M's name in an Algarotti context and not sure whether it was one and the same).
Keith brothers
Date: 2022-01-16 06:45 pm (UTC)Gefraget: Ob er mit dem Pagen Keith nicht auch davon gesprochen und ihn beredet mitzugehen?
Respond.: Ja, unterweges auf der Reise hätte er mit ihm davon gesprochen, und ihn beredet, mit wegzugehen, auch Pferde zu bestellen. Denn er ihm gesaget, es würde ihm nicht gut gehen, weil sein Bruder mit ihm weggehen würde.
My translation:
Q: Whether he [Fritz] hadn't also spoken about it [the escape] with the Page Keith and talked him into going along?
A: Yes, while the trip was underway, he had spoken with him about it, and talked him into coming along, also into ordering the horses. Since he said to him, it would not go well with him, since his brother would escape with him.
My interpretation of all the "he"s and "him"s in the last sentence: Fritz told not!Robert that when Peter deserted with Fritz, FW would assume that not!Robert was an accomplice of his brother, therefore not!Robert had nothing to lose by helping Fritz out.
Aka basically extortion from the guy who lied to Katte.
Is that the interpretation of the German speakers in salon as well?
Re: Royal Reader question
Date: 2022-01-16 06:49 pm (UTC)I use multicolor paper to mark passages in (printed) books while I'M reading them, and with e-books I use the text marker functions.
Do you do this on the first reading, though? My problem is that on the first read-through, I have not a clue which things I will end up wanting to talk about. Furthermore, trying to think in those terms while I read just slows me down to the point where I never finish the book. Experience has shown me that it only makes sense for me to start compiling "what I want to talk about" highlights on the second reading. And it's having to do a second reading immediately after the first that makes me not remotely motivated enough to see the process through for most books. (I usually need a year to pass before I'm willing to reread a book, for most books.)
I do make heavy use of highlighting in my e-books, and few-word notes like "Mitchell?!?" (lol), but only
a) If there's something small and specific that jumps out at me on the first reading, like "Is that OUR Mitchell?!"
or
b) On the second readthrough when I'm deciding what's important enough to share.
The problem is that (a) on the first reading isn't going to help me put together a coherent picture of the highlights of Joseph's life story, aka (a) is trees and (b) is forest. Compiling a picture of the forest as I read the first time is basically where my brain throws up its metaphorical hands. Yours...can actually do this?
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-16 07:09 pm (UTC)Re: Keith brothers
Date: 2022-01-16 07:18 pm (UTC)Fritz: I'm only predicting the future! What you do with that is your own business.
But yeah, I'm reading it the same way: He tried to convince not!Robert to escape with them and to organize the horses by pointing out that Peter's involvement would mean bad things for not!Robert's future.
Re: Keith brothers
Date: 2022-01-16 07:29 pm (UTC)Ugh, I have sympathy for basically EVERYONE (except FW) in this horrible, terrible, no-good, very bad situation. I always said I didn't blame not!Robert for fessing up, and now that I know how his arm was twisted into this...I really, really don't.
Also, of interest: not!Robert's testimony contradicts Fritz's on this point.
Interrogatur: Ob der Prinz ihm nichts wegen seines Bruders, des Lieutenants, gesaget, daß derselbe auch mit weggehen würde?
Respond.: Nein, hiervon hätte er nichts gesaget; nur auf dem Rhein, des zweiten Tages, hätte der Kronprinz ihm befohlen, er solle seinem Bruder in Wesel von der ganzen Sache nichts sagen.
Q: Whether the Prince hadn't said something to him about his brother, the lieutenant, that he would also go away?
A: No, he had said nothing about this; only on the Rhine, on the second day, had the Crown Prince ordered him to say nothing to his brother in Wesel about the entire affair.
Either Fritz or not!Robert is lying or being forgetful here. Discuss!
Fritz: I'm only predicting the future! What you do with that is your own business.
LOLOL. :D Generously giving not!Robert a chance to escape the inevitable punishment!
Peter: MEANWHILE, I was trying to cover for my brother by writing letters saying he could room with me in Wesel, making sure it was clear he was innocent!
I wonder if Peter ever found out how that went down.
Re: FW vs. George II
Date: 2022-01-17 06:53 am (UTC)Anyway, yes, I'd read the duel AU too!
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-17 06:55 am (UTC)ahahaha, very mysterious! I did remember you'd mentioned all the "I'm the greatest!" but didn't remember this, if you'd mentioned it before.
note that the figures representing MT and FS are looking at each other, not to the ceiling/heaven as usually couple depictions on tombs go.That Joseph wanted to be buried in the exact opposite of this, yet with them, just about sums it up.
I... have a lot of feelings about this <3
All their differences aside, I do imagine the first thing his parents did when he joined them in the hereafter after his painful death was give him the spiritual equivalent of a big hug.
Yeah, this is just going to be my headcanon now!