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cahnAnd including Emperor Joseph II!
from Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790:
Joseph's alleged comment to Mozart about the Entführung, "Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like, "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstrous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question were those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.
(though not gonna lie, I think it is a LOT of notes)
from Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790:
Joseph's alleged comment to Mozart about the Entführung, "Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like, "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstrous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question were those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.
(though not gonna lie, I think it is a LOT of notes)
Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-14 07:29 am (UTC)Maria Carolina: well, you know my main criticism of the Maria Carolina sections in Goldstone's book was that "she was loved by everyone in Naples, and those few revolutionaries were basically deluded or paid by the French" is not the takeaway I had of the Neapolitan revolution. I didn't question "the husband was stupid and uselessl, but she had the upper hand and made it work for her" because that was Horowski's take as well. I don't recall either of them mentioning Ferdinand had infected her with STDs, a sore in the vagina, or marital rape in the later 1780s.
Also forgot to mention this, since we've been wondering: there is nothing in either Beales volume about Maria Christina/Mimi showing Joseph Isabella's letters to herself. Unless Goldstone has another source, she must have made it up.
Leopold's secret 1784 memorandum is the Relazione, yes. It's basically "why Joseph sucks, let me count the ways, with some flashbacks to why Mom sucked, too". Beales thinks some of the criticism is valid and earned while other parts are either exaggarated or demonstrably untrue, which he argues by presenting Zinzendorf's diary (Zinzendorf was an MT era veteran and politically very much against Joseph's ideas, so his diary offering counter testimony to some of Leopold's claims is pretty valid), various letters from contemporaries and, with a bit more sceptism, Joseph friendly memoirists like the Prince de Ligne (RPF writer extraordinaire, but he did write about his own life as well) or Lorenzo da Ponte (Joseph was my Emperor and patron! Fuck yeah!).
In terms of sibling Joseph critique, Beales gives the most weight not to Leopold or Maria Christina but to youngest brother Max Ernst. MT had gone to some effort to get him alected as Archbishop and thus Prince Elector of Cologne. In medieval and Renaissance times, this was the most prestigious and important position any German cleric could have, because not only was the Prince Bishop of Cologne part of the Princes Elector who voted the Emperor into power (or not), he was the one conducting the coronation, and his vote usually held the most influence among the clerical Princes. (When we had decades long feudings between noble families as to who would get to be Emperor in the 12th century, getting the Prince Bishop of Cologne on your side was key.) By the time of the 18th Century, and the decline of the HRE, it wasn't this important in terms of international and day to day politics, but it was still an office of incluence, and also, it offered Max Ernst the chance to interact with representatives of other German states on a daily basis and watch inner HRE politics for which neither of his older brothers had much patience. This led Max Ernst to write to Leopold:
Germany was useful to (FS), useless and even dangerous to Joseph. The explanation of the difference is dunbtedly to be found in the two emperors' manner of ruling. Our father, easy, polite, affable, upright, reigned over all hearts. The empress, gracious and generous, supported him marvellously. The princes of the Empire were attracted to Vienna, were amused, flattered, manipulated, and were full of it when they got back. The ecclesiastical princces were treated with the greatest consideration, and the canons found ample satisfaction for their interest and ambition in the chapters and bishoprics of the heritiary lands, in the abbeys of Hungary, in the invariably effective reccommendations made by the Imperial Court to the Pope. Not even the smallest election took place without the influence of the Imperial Court preponderating, and its creatures, finding themselves looked after, remained totally devoted to the House of Austria. The lesser princes and counts were honoured with places in the army (...) or in the civil service. The Theresianum an the Savoy College attracted many noblemen from the Empire, who then dispersed to all parts of Germany, regarding Vienna as their second home, imbued with its principles and keeping up their connections there. It was by all these means that (FS) caused the Empire to act (on his behalf) in the Seven Years War against its own interests.
Whereas Joseph, after his initial attempts at reform had been rejected
absolutely neglected to cultivate individuals and paid more attention to a simple (Hungarian) guard than to a prince of the Empire, and wouldn't give any favours to imperial nobles, considering them mere spongers and intriguers, which was bound to alienate them. Instead of the favours they were accustomed to receive, they came up against a gracious code of regulations. The Hungarian abbeys were suppressed, you could only get a canonry after ten years in a cure of souls. Papal support was cut off, (...) ministers were prohibited form interfering in elections (...) The Colleges were abolished or (effectively) restricted to the local inhabitants. Every military rank above cadet was prohibited to (imperial nobles). And the only hope for promotion was seniority. Moreover, no Court - and therefore no distinction - and French marquises and English milords were feted while I saw canons and knights of true merit relagated to the lower table and the company of imperial agents.(...) This is certainly not the way to win hearts and minds.
Comments Beales: Here speaks the authentic voice of the ancient régime. . He could have added that Max Ernst is a bit rose-eyed re: how far FS was able to make the German princes support Team Austria in the 7 Years War. Yes, Fritz was put into the Reichsacht for invading Saxony, but his hero of the Protestant faith pose certainly mattered more to the Protestant princes in practice. But unlike Leopold, whose resentment always comes with the conviction he'd be able to do a better job in Joseph's place, and who knew he would get that job once Joseph died, Max Ernst didn't have a personal horse in that race.
Mildred:
Also, as I recall, he was writing in invisible ink to his siblings, because he knew Joseph was reading his mail. But, says Beales, he obviously didn't switch to the lemon juice soon enough, because one of his non-invisible ink letters was read by Joseph and was critical enough of Joseph to cause bad feelings/problems/something I don't have time to look up.
This happened in 1789 (a year before Joseph died), but had a 1788 prehistory. Writes Beales.
At the beginning of October, (Joseph) contrived to give grave offence to Leopold on two counts. He first accused him of having revealed to diplomats secret information supplied by Joseph. Leopold denied the charge, but the emperor sent him the evidence for it, which was difficult to rebut. Although they agreed to drop the matter, Joseph evidently remained suspicious and bacme less confiding. Secondly, when Leopold's daughter, Maria Theresa, came to Vienna en route to marry a son of the elector of Saxony in Dresden, the emperor took the occasion to critisize his brother's upbringing of his children. No doubt, wrote Joseph, Leopold's intentions were good. But
all the more defective must be the method or the teachers. (...) The physical side seems to me as neglected as the moral. They don't know what to do with their arms and legs anymore than they know how to make use in society of the pedantic knowledge that has been stuffed into their heads. I can't find in them any sincerity. They think they're clever if they can boast of having conceiled what they really think.
Joseph thought that Leopold's other children needed to come to Vienna to be properly educated - except that Charles, who had epilepsy, "should either find a cure for it or vegetate unobserved in his sad situation, which he can do much better in Tuscany."
Leopold sent a pained reply saying that Francis had been the most difficult and reserved of all his sons and that Charles was actually the most intelligent. Joseph said that he was 'in despair' if what he had said about the children's education had displeased Leopold. But he went on to complain about the state of their teeth. Further, Theresa didn't know how to curtsey. Joseph had found the elder daughters proud, self-satisfied and deceitful. After this appalling display of cruel insensitivity, however, he agreed that Charles could also come to Vienna. The despised epileptic was to become perhaps Austria's greatest general after Prince Eugene.
Unsurprsingly, after this, Leopold stepped up his "Joseph: the worst!" letters to Mimi and Max Ernst. By 1789, when it was clear to Joseph he would likely die within the year or so, writes Beales:
He seemed to have accepted that he could not live much longer, and he knew from intercepts that Leopold's prudent letters to him veiled an aversion to his despotic policies. The emperor told Trautmannsdorff in June 1789 that he was' sure that intrigue goes on between Florence and Brussels' (i.e Leopold and Mimi) and he had a copy of one of Leopold's letters sent on to prove it. The grand duke had good reason to use lemon-jice as an invisible ink when writing to his sister, but he evidently should have taken the precaution earlier. It must therefore have been clear to Joseph that his brother, if he succeeded, would not m aintain all his legislation intact. Yet he set forth on a collision course, reviving and exarbating almost every possible grievance in every province. One can only wonder at the dedication and willpower of the dying emperor in his desperate campaign to bring his policies to fruition. It was magnificent, but it was not politics.
Mildred asked: omeone I was reading recently--I can't remember if it was Beales--was casting Leopold's interest in constitutionalism as lip service, since the Tuscans never actually got a constitution out of him. Thoughts?
Don't recall this from Beales, though maybe I overlooked it, can't comment without a Leopold biography.
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-15 06:49 pm (UTC)I mean... the number of people I feel like I would talk to about my sex life is very, very small, and actually zero if you count people who are local to me. But then again I guess my sex life doesn't affect the entire nation; if it did, adversely, I guess I can grudgingly name a few local people I'd talk to about it, so, okay.
Unlike Goldstone, Beales does't think Louis XVI was autistic, but sees the fact he wasn't able to talk to anyone (including his doctors, his brothers and any given courtier) about sex until a fellow monarch and brother-in-law came to town as telling about the status of a French King in the 1770s.
Interesting! I'm looking forward to reading Zweig and seeing how I feel about Louis XVI after reading that. Goldstone definitely made a case for it, but then again she has made a case for a lot of things that aren't true :P But I could see him being the kind of on-the-spectrum that is reasonably high-functioning (so wouldn't maybe ping someone as autistic who isn't sort of living in that world) but that still is a problem for figuring out subtle social cues. But maybe he was just isolated and NT awkward, who knows.
Also forgot to mention this, since we've been wondering: there is nothing in either Beales volume about Maria Christina/Mimi showing Joseph Isabella's letters to herself. Unless Goldstone has another source, she must have made it up.
Yeah, I am gonna trust Beales here. This is big enough that he would totally have talked about it if it had actually happened!
Lorenzo da Ponte (Joseph was my Emperor and patron! Fuck yeah!)
Aw, this made me smile :)
absolutely neglected to cultivate individuals and paid more attention to a simple (Hungarian) guard than to a prince of the Empire, and wouldn't give any favours to imperial nobles, considering them mere spongers and intriguers, which was bound to alienate them.
Yeah, I both have a lot of sympathy for him (of course that is the idealistic thing to do! Go Joseph for valuing meritocracy and devaluing aristocracy and nepotism!) and... yeah, that explains a lot (...but how did you think they were going to react to that?)
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-16 09:53 am (UTC)Quite. It did occur to me that if it happened, Mimi's husband Albert - who later published (part of) the letters after her death (i.e. a somewhat censored version, but enough to make it clear whom Isabella loved and whom she did not - would have mentioned it in his memoirs. But those Beales is familiar with, and I can't imagine why he wouldn't have mentioned such an emotional bombshell as any of those letters would have been to Joseph.
Aw, this made me smile :)
To be fair, Lorenzo da Ponte's memoirs aren't exactly hardcore realism. Aside from all the "I'm the greatest!" (hardly unique to da Ponte), there's stuff like this: when Leopold after Joseph's death whithdraws imperial patronage from da Ponte, this is of course solely due to the scheming of da Ponte's enemies, who slander him in front of the new Emperor. When da Ponte travels after Leopold to Trieste in order to get reinstated as court poet and supreme opera librettist, the conversation he describes between him and Leopold has him proudly unmasking all the false claims his enemies have made as slander and Leopold agreeing with him that yeah, now he realizes these were all lies and everyone sucks (including Salieri and his mistress for turning againt da Ponte), but somehow, mysteriously, not reinstating da Ponte in his old job after five pages of this.
This said, it's human to like someone who liked and supported you, and da Ponte's "Joseph was cool, had great taste (he adored my stuff!), and only wanted the best!" is as valid a response as Leopold's seething "here's all Joseph did wrong".
Incidentally, I don't know whether I ever linked that pic of the Kapuzinergruft where Joseph is buried with his parents, his simple copper-made coffin vs their baroque magnificence. Very telling about everyone involved - note that the figures representing MT and FS are looking at each other, not to the ceiling/heaven as usually couple depictions on tombs go.That Joseph wanted to be buried in the exact opposite of this, yet with them, just about sums it up. All their differences aside, I do imagine the first thing his parents did when he joined them in the hereafter after his painful death was give him the spiritual equivalent of a big hug.
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-16 03:43 pm (UTC)That Joseph wanted to be buried in the exact opposite of this, yet with them, just about sums it up.
Yes, exactly. Families are so complicated.
All their differences aside, I do imagine the first thing his parents did when he joined them in the hereafter after his painful death was give him the spiritual equivalent of a big hug.
Awww. Yes!
but somehow, mysteriously, not reinstating da Ponte in his old job after five pages of this.
Lololol. Yes, this seems 100% hardcore realism.
This said, it's human to like someone who liked and supported you, and da Ponte's "Joseph was cool, had great taste (he adored my stuff!), and only wanted the best!" is as valid a response as Leopold's seething "here's all Joseph did wrong".
Also true!
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-16 07:09 pm (UTC)Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-17 03:34 pm (UTC)Another good reason to reshare things, we have new people with new contributions! :D
Now I'm thinking about his vs. Fritz' wishes for their funeral again. The simplicity is certainly a shared trait.
Yeah, with Fritz's tomb looking even more simple, just the flat headstone. It took me a long time to find it and I eventually had to ask for directions, because I was expecting something with an elevation greater than -1 centimeters! :PP
But then Fritz also has the Flora statue, because why be a prince if you're not going to commission art! (With naked breasts that also surprised me. :P)
Seems to me like Fritz saw his burial place as more of a final escape, though.
Yeah, and of course he *didn't* believe in an afterlife. His burial site and instructions are much like Sanssouci itself: extremely personal. He didn't want the palace at the edge of the terrace where it could be seen on display from below, he didn't want the palace maintained at the end of his life more than necessary for his personal comfort, and he wanted a final resting place that was just him and his dogs and the art that he personally cared about. Extremely geared toward what made him feel better instead of display.
*boos FW2*
Hahahaha. Well, the rational part of my brain acknowledges that after what Fritz put him through, I don't expect him to care about Uncle Fritz's feelings any more than Fritz cared about his, but the irrational part of me had to write a whole fic because I was so upset about FW2 burying him next to FW! :PP
nor was there a central crypt for all family members to begin with.
Yes, though I'm now being reminded that there was also the poem Fritz wrote about wanting his ashes to mingle with Wilhelmine's in a single grave!
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-19 08:55 am (UTC)I was going to say that from FW2's perspective, burying Fritz next to FW was the only possible comment on the way Fritz raised him/had him raised and then treated him as an adult. But I do get your upsetness!
But then Fritz also has the Flora statue, because why be a prince if you're not going to commission art! (With naked breasts that also surprised me. :P)
You and my Dad, who after all my lobbying for gay!Fritz at the sight of all the female nudity at Sanssouci (and there's a lot more than just that Flora statue) reverted back to "Are you sure? No man who doesn't like women sexually would want that many naked women depicted in his personal hideout!"
Fritz and Female Nudity in Art
Date: 2022-01-19 10:10 am (UTC)Re: Fritz and Female Nudity in Art
Date: 2022-01-19 11:31 am (UTC)On the non-existing third hand, his withdrawing into loneliness didn't stop him from building an extra palace just for representation and showing off his Silesian marble & superpower status. :) (Some Magdalene.)
Re: Fritz and Female Nudity in Art
Date: 2022-01-20 06:05 am (UTC)Ngl, my first thought on seeing the picture was "Portrait of woman With Book looking all comfy reading, that's so cool, I would A+ hang that up if I were an art-collecting monarch!" So, idk, I could imagine Fritz thinking the same :)
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-17 06:55 am (UTC)ahahaha, very mysterious! I did remember you'd mentioned all the "I'm the greatest!" but didn't remember this, if you'd mentioned it before.
note that the figures representing MT and FS are looking at each other, not to the ceiling/heaven as usually couple depictions on tombs go.That Joseph wanted to be buried in the exact opposite of this, yet with them, just about sums it up.
I... have a lot of feelings about this <3
All their differences aside, I do imagine the first thing his parents did when he joined them in the hereafter after his painful death was give him the spiritual equivalent of a big hug.
Yeah, this is just going to be my headcanon now!
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-17 10:06 am (UTC)Here's something touching I didn't know yet I learned from the Kapuziner-Gruft-Website: as you might recall, Maria Carolina, who (courtesy of Napoleon) having left Naples for good, spent the last years of her life in Vienna. She's buried there, too (which I figured), but what was new to me is that in 1802, Maria Carolina had a medaillon with a picture of herself be added to MT's sarcophagus with the following inscription:
IUNGERE CUI NEQUEO MATER DULCISSIMA CORPUS HANC NATAE MOESTAM SUSCIPITO EFFIGIEM MDCCCII.
"Sweetest Mother, with whom I could not reunite in body, take this mourning picture of your daughter, 1802."
ETA: also, reminder, the one person buried in that crypt who is neither a Habsburg nor was married to one was MT's governess, Karoline von Fuchs ("die Fuchsin"), who had raised her. Here, after the inscription declaring her name, age, titles etc., MT added a personal PS: "IN MEMORIAM IMMORTALEM GRATIOSISS. GRATIQ. ANIMI. LIBARALIS AD VIRTUTEM INSTITUTIONIS ERGO, M. THERESIA AUGUSTA"
"For the immortal memory of a grateful heart for the noble education towards virtue, I, Maria Theresia, Empress"
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-17 03:56 pm (UTC)"For the immortal memory of a grateful heart for the noble education towards virtue, I, Maria Theresia, Empress"
Awwww. <33
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-17 04:35 pm (UTC)Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-15 09:06 pm (UTC)Everything I've read about the Relazione makes me want to check it out. Preferably after a Leopold bio. Regarding which...
Don't recall this from Beales, though maybe I overlooked it, can't comment without a Leopold biography.
Not Beales, as I suspected. I turned up the passage I was remembering in one of the popular history books I read over the holidays. As for Leopold bios, Stabi has the definitive one, at least as of when Beales was writing. I have no idea whether it's any good, but Beales cites it a lot and described it as "striking", and I'm super curious. :)
Thank you for the Max Ernst perspective, and fleshing out the details of the Joseph-Leopold friction that I'd forgotten!
the Prince de Ligne (RPF writer extraordinaire, but he did write about his own life as well)
Wait, is there any chance he's responsible for Austrian Trenck's apparently fake memoirs too? If Ligne was big into colorful figures who fought for the Austrians...Hmmm.
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-16 08:27 am (UTC)De Ligne & Austrian Trenck: otoh, sounds like him, otoh, could he, date wise? I thought the Austrian Trenck memoirs appeared within a year or so of Austrian Trenck's death, which is too early for Ligne who is of Joseph's generation?
ETA: However, the Stabi has the Relazione in the original Italian with an English preface by Beales, and also a Tuscany constitution draft from 1787, and Arneth's edition of the Joseph/Leopold correspondence online. (Which means presumably anatomical details of their sisters' sex lives get censured, but still, two volumes are available.)
Leopold bio
Date: 2022-01-16 03:22 pm (UTC)As far as all my googling can tell, the book was written in German, so I'm not sure why, even if there is a Hungarian translation, your library in Germany would have *only* a Hungarian translation (when all the other works they have by this author they have in German--with the exception of one Hungarian one that also looks like a typo).
The subtitle, Erzherzog v. Oesterreich, Großherzog v. Toskana, König v. Ungarn u. Böhmen, Römischer Kaiser, in the catalog entry is in German. I checked, and it is the custom of the Stabi, like most libraries, to list titles in the language of the volume, not to translate them all into German.
The publisher (Herold), years of publication for the two volumes (1963, 1965), and places of publication (Wien, München) listed are the same as for the German edition I'm finding in googling, and which is the same edition Beales used and heavily implied was in German.
The page numbers (450, 457) for each of the volumes match those of the German edition I'm finding exactly. In my experience, translations don't usually have exactly the same page numbers.
According to WorldCat, the Stabi's copy is the only Hungarian edition in the world.
In conclusion, I think it's worth ordering the first volume and seeing if 1) it's in German, 2) it's any good and worth ordering the second volume. If I'm wrong, you can start learning Hungarian. ;)
Re: Collected replies re: Joseph and Leopold , mainly
Date: 2022-01-16 03:38 pm (UTC)Checked, and you are correct! I'd forgotten how early they appeared. (1748.) So either Ligne got an early start on his RPF and was publishing at the precocious age of 13, or someone else was doing RPF in the 1740s. Alas!
Stabi request
Date: 2022-01-23 05:52 pm (UTC)<3 as always, and no rush, of course.
Re: Stabi request
Date: 2022-01-24 01:51 pm (UTC)