cahn

And including Emperor Joseph II!

from Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790:

Joseph's alleged comment to Mozart about the Entführung, "Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like, "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstrous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question were those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.

(though not gonna lie, I think it is a LOT of notes)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

selenak

Yeah, I am gonna trust Beales here. This is big enough that he would totally have talked about it if it had actually happened!

Quite. It did occur to me that if it happened, Mimi's husband Albert - who later published (part of) the letters after her death (i.e. a somewhat censored version, but enough to make it clear whom Isabella loved and whom she did not - would have mentioned it in his memoirs. But those Beales is familiar with, and I can't imagine why he wouldn't have mentioned such an emotional bombshell as any of those letters would have been to Joseph.

Aw, this made me smile :)

To be fair, Lorenzo da Ponte's memoirs aren't exactly hardcore realism. Aside from all the "I'm the greatest!" (hardly unique to da Ponte), there's stuff like this: when Leopold after Joseph's death whithdraws imperial patronage from da Ponte, this is of course solely due to the scheming of da Ponte's enemies, who slander him in front of the new Emperor. When da Ponte travels after Leopold to Trieste in order to get reinstated as court poet and supreme opera librettist, the conversation he describes between him and Leopold has him proudly unmasking all the false claims his enemies have made as slander and Leopold agreeing with him that yeah, now he realizes these were all lies and everyone sucks (including Salieri and his mistress for turning againt da Ponte), but somehow, mysteriously, not reinstating da Ponte in his old job after five pages of this.

This said, it's human to like someone who liked and supported you, and da Ponte's "Joseph was cool, had great taste (he adored my stuff!), and only wanted the best!" is as valid a response as Leopold's seething "here's all Joseph did wrong".

Incidentally, I don't know whether I ever linked that pic of the Kapuzinergruft where Joseph is buried with his parents, his simple copper-made coffin vs their baroque magnificence. Very telling about everyone involved - note that the figures representing MT and FS are looking at each other, not to the ceiling/heaven as usually couple depictions on tombs go.That Joseph wanted to be buried in the exact opposite of this, yet with them, just about sums it up. All their differences aside, I do imagine the first thing his parents did when he joined them in the hereafter after his painful death was give him the spiritual equivalent of a big hug.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

You had linked to this before, but long ago, and it's definitely worth a revisit. I, for one, had forgotten he was buried with them (though I remembered their tomb facing each other), and yeah, wow. So telling.

That Joseph wanted to be buried in the exact opposite of this, yet with them, just about sums it up.

Yes, exactly. Families are so complicated.

All their differences aside, I do imagine the first thing his parents did when he joined them in the hereafter after his painful death was give him the spiritual equivalent of a big hug.

Awww. Yes!

but somehow, mysteriously, not reinstating da Ponte in his old job after five pages of this.

Lololol. Yes, this seems 100% hardcore realism.

This said, it's human to like someone who liked and supported you, and da Ponte's "Joseph was cool, had great taste (he adored my stuff!), and only wanted the best!" is as valid a response as Leopold's seething "here's all Joseph did wrong".

Also true!

From:

felis

Oh, that's a cool and very interesting picture, I hadn't that before! And yes, the whole background is very telling indeed, aw. Now I'm thinking about his vs. Fritz' wishes for their funeral again. The simplicity is certainly a shared trait. Seems to me like Fritz saw his burial place as more of a final escape, though. And of course he didn't want to be buried next to his Dad (*boos FW2*), nor was there a central crypt for all family members to begin with.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh, that's a cool and very interesting picture, I hadn't that before!

Another good reason to reshare things, we have new people with new contributions! :D

Now I'm thinking about his vs. Fritz' wishes for their funeral again. The simplicity is certainly a shared trait.

Yeah, with Fritz's tomb looking even more simple, just the flat headstone. It took me a long time to find it and I eventually had to ask for directions, because I was expecting something with an elevation greater than -1 centimeters! :PP

But then Fritz also has the Flora statue, because why be a prince if you're not going to commission art! (With naked breasts that also surprised me. :P)

Seems to me like Fritz saw his burial place as more of a final escape, though.

Yeah, and of course he *didn't* believe in an afterlife. His burial site and instructions are much like Sanssouci itself: extremely personal. He didn't want the palace at the edge of the terrace where it could be seen on display from below, he didn't want the palace maintained at the end of his life more than necessary for his personal comfort, and he wanted a final resting place that was just him and his dogs and the art that he personally cared about. Extremely geared toward what made him feel better instead of display.

*boos FW2*

Hahahaha. Well, the rational part of my brain acknowledges that after what Fritz put him through, I don't expect him to care about Uncle Fritz's feelings any more than Fritz cared about his, but the irrational part of me had to write a whole fic because I was so upset about FW2 burying him next to FW! :PP

nor was there a central crypt for all family members to begin with.

Yes, though I'm now being reminded that there was also the poem Fritz wrote about wanting his ashes to mingle with Wilhelmine's in a single grave!

From:

selenak

Well, the rational part of my brain acknowledges that after what Fritz put him through, I don't expect him to care about Uncle Fritz's feelings any more than Fritz cared about his, but the irrational part of me had to write a whole fic because I was so upset about FW2 burying him next to FW!

I was going to say that from FW2's perspective, burying Fritz next to FW was the only possible comment on the way Fritz raised him/had him raised and then treated him as an adult. But I do get your upsetness!

But then Fritz also has the Flora statue, because why be a prince if you're not going to commission art! (With naked breasts that also surprised me. :P)

You and my Dad, who after all my lobbying for gay!Fritz at the sight of all the female nudity at Sanssouci (and there's a lot more than just that Flora statue) reverted back to "Are you sure? No man who doesn't like women sexually would want that many naked women depicted in his personal hideout!"

From:

felis

The last part reminds me - did any of you see this tumblr post? The sources seem legit (Oesterreich definitely checks out) and I rather liked the interpretation! :D

From:

selenak

Haven't seen it, no. Identifying himself with Mary Magdelene, hm. My first instinct is to say no, if for no other reason than raised by FW the Calvinist!Fritz lacks the Catholic cultural context for Mary Magdalene having this particular meaning to him. Otoh: maybe he brushed up on his saints before writing the Palladion, and at any rate, he did choose the picture, and it's certainly a very unusual Magdalene (i.e. showing her reading and without the symbols of penitence otherwise in most depictions).

On the non-existing third hand, his withdrawing into loneliness didn't stop him from building an extra palace just for representation and showing off his Silesian marble & superpower status. :) (Some Magdalene.)

From:

cahn

Oh, that's very neat!

Ngl, my first thought on seeing the picture was "Portrait of woman With Book looking all comfy reading, that's so cool, I would A+ hang that up if I were an art-collecting monarch!" So, idk, I could imagine Fritz thinking the same :)

From:

cahn

but somehow, mysteriously, not reinstating da Ponte in his old job after five pages of this.

ahahaha, very mysterious! I did remember you'd mentioned all the "I'm the greatest!" but didn't remember this, if you'd mentioned it before.

note that the figures representing MT and FS are looking at each other, not to the ceiling/heaven as usually couple depictions on tombs go.That Joseph wanted to be buried in the exact opposite of this, yet with them, just about sums it up.

I... have a lot of feelings about this <3

All their differences aside, I do imagine the first thing his parents did when he joined them in the hereafter after his painful death was give him the spiritual equivalent of a big hug.

Yeah, this is just going to be my headcanon now!

From:

selenak

Mildred being a fan of maps, here's one of the entire Cappuchin Crypt, where (most of) the Habsburgs are buried. The section where MT, FS, Joseph, MT's children who died as infants, Isabella and her two dead children as well as Joseph's unfortunate second wife are buried is unsurprisingly called the Maria-Theresien-Gruft. Leopold, his wife and children aren't there, they lie in a different section, the Toskana-Gruft. (Toskana = Tuscany.)

Here's something touching I didn't know yet I learned from the Kapuziner-Gruft-Website: as you might recall, Maria Carolina, who (courtesy of Napoleon) having left Naples for good, spent the last years of her life in Vienna. She's buried there, too (which I figured), but what was new to me is that in 1802, Maria Carolina had a medaillon with a picture of herself be added to MT's sarcophagus with the following inscription:

IUNGERE CUI NEQUEO MATER DULCISSIMA CORPUS HANC NATAE MOESTAM SUSCIPITO EFFIGIEM MDCCCII.

"Sweetest Mother, with whom I could not reunite in body, take this mourning picture of your daughter, 1802."

ETA: also, reminder, the one person buried in that crypt who is neither a Habsburg nor was married to one was MT's governess, Karoline von Fuchs ("die Fuchsin"), who had raised her. Here, after the inscription declaring her name, age, titles etc., MT added a personal PS: "IN MEMORIAM IMMORTALEM GRATIOSISS. GRATIQ. ANIMI. LIBARALIS AD VIRTUTEM INSTITUTIONIS ERGO, M. THERESIA AUGUSTA"

"For the immortal memory of a grateful heart for the noble education towards virtue, I, Maria Theresia, Empress"

Edited Date: 2022-01-17 10:12 am (UTC)