The Jewish War: First half of Book 2
Mar. 1st, 2026 08:02 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnLast week: Discussion on how Herod stacked up against various Roman emperors in terms of body count of his nearest and dearest; how Friedrich Wilhelm might hear the Josephus text; Herod throwing money around; Cleopatra!
This week: ...uhhhh there was a lot going on and I haven't actually finished the reading yet *ducks* -- I am doing that right now and I should most likely be able to comment tomorrow. (I don't anticipate this being a problem again for at least two more months, and most likely not then either; this was a confluence of various time sinks that doesn't usually happen all at the same time.) But I wanted to go ahead and get the post up because I know you guys have read it... (ETA: have finished the reading now :P :) )
Next week: finishing up Book 2!
This week: ...uhhhh there was a lot going on and I haven't actually finished the reading yet *ducks* -- I am doing that right now and I should most likely be able to comment tomorrow. (I don't anticipate this being a problem again for at least two more months, and most likely not then either; this was a confluence of various time sinks that doesn't usually happen all at the same time.) But I wanted to go ahead and get the post up because I know you guys have read it... (ETA: have finished the reading now :P :) )
Next week: finishing up Book 2!
Re: Death of Britannicus: Tacitus / Messalina
Date: 2026-03-10 04:36 pm (UTC)Either would work with the portrait Tacitus paints and his kind of morality. Incidentally, it has to be pointed out that Suetonius, who is an absolute fiend for sex related anecdotes and because he was Hadrian's secretary had access to the imperial Archive, doesn't mention this at all, it's only in Tacitus. This said, given the Roman hang up re: top/bottom (i.e.you, Roman man, have always be the one doing the buggering, never the one being buggered, and also while it absolutely doesn't matter what you do to your slaves, male or female, in this regard, you do not bugger other Roman adult men of equal or superior rank), I don't think it's out of the question Nero did this for spite. Mind you, what Suetonius does write is that "With such relish did he allow his body to be used as though it was prostitute's", which definitely implies Nero lets himself be topped as well.
Poor Octavia had a terrible (and short) life indeed.
Messalina, or, was Lehndorff would put it, MESSALINA: had just as bad or even worse press than Agrippina, only with another cliché. If Agrippina is seen as an evil powerhungry bitch with a masculine mind by Roman historians, Messalina is presented as a dumb, malicious and greedy slut. Who doesn't even get credited with facing her death with courage, as opposed to Agrippina or Cleopatra. She was a high born Roman aristocrat with a blood connection to the Julians - her great grandmother both from her mother's and her father's side was Octavia the sister of Augustus (whom her daughter is named after). Her mother was the sister of Agrippina's first husband and Nero's dad, Domitius, so in fact Messalina was Nero's first cousin, despite seventeen years of age difference (err, she's 17 years older than Nero, that is). No one knows under which circumstances the thirty years older Claudius married her, just that it happened during the reign of Caligula, which means at the time she was definitely the better party in that marriage, since Claudius was still treated as the family joke due to his physical impediments. (Robert Graves has Caligula himself arrange the marriage as a joke, which for all we know might have been the case; we simply don't know.) She must have been pregnant with Britannicus when Caligula was killed, which made her Empress when Claudius become Emperor. The ancient historians agree that Claudius was genuinely in love with her (whereas his first two marriages had been brief and unhappy affairs). Whereas Messalina is presented as cheating on him very soon into the marriage. The famous anecdote about her betting with a prostitute about who can satisfy more men in an night and winning with 25 men is only in Pliny's natural history, and the tale of her disguising herself with a wig and working in a brothel is in a satire by Juvenal, both writing more than a century after her death, but while Suetonius and Tacitus don't have those stories and stop short of presenting her as a nymphomaniac, they do present her in if possible even worse terms for Romans, since they include various stories of her forcing herself on men. The most famous anecdote is of her tricking Claudius into ordering the actor Mnester, who didn't want to have sex with the Empress for self preservation reasons, that he was to obey her every command (of course Claudius thought this meant acting), and then there is the story of her inventing false claims to judically kill men who had refused her, like her stepfather or the husband of Julia Livilla, who was the youngest sister of Agrippina and Caligula. In fact, she's also blamed for Julia Livilla's death; as a reminder, both Agrippina and Julia Livilla had been banished by brother Gaius (Caligula) for allegedly conspiring against him. Claudius brought both of his nieces back, and then Messalina supposedly started to gun for them, claiming in Julia Livilla's case that she had an adulterous affair with Seneca, which got Seneca exiled on an island and Julia Livilla executed. Agrippina (who had been widowed while on her island of exile) arranged a second marriage for herself post haste which took her out of Rome for most of Messalina's remaining years as Empress. (She did return when husband No.2 died.) And then there was Poppea Sabina, mother of the Poppea who would end up as the second Mrs. Nero (and star in a sympathetic role at the start of Feuchtwanger's Josephus trilogy), with whom Messalina allegedly competed over the actor Mnester (see above), and whom she drove to suicide. And a guy who owned the gardens of Lucullus (yes, that Lucullus, dead for a century at this point) which Messalina wanted for herself and whom she had killed by drummed up claims as well. Before I get to her ending, I shall add the caveat that all the Messalina stories were written decades after her violent ending and the damnation of her memory, they're also there to make her husband look terrible (because a chief criticism ancient historians have of Claudius was that he listened to his Freedmen and his wives instead of Senators), plus of course there's the possibility at least some of this stuff comes from the memoirs of her successor as Empress who at the very least blamed her for the death of her sister, i.e. Agrippina.
(One of the many things we don't know about Agrippina's memoirs is just when she wrote them. There are two obvious possibilities: either during the time brother Caligula had her banished on an island, or in the last few years of her life when she'd lost her political influence with Nero for good. While ancient historians mentions the Memoirs' existence, frustratingly there are only two incidents for which they are directly quoted as a source - one is the fact that Nero was a breech birth (Pliny the Elder mentions this in his natural history with Agrippina's memoirs as the quoted source), and the other is a story about her mother Agrippina the Elder and Tiberius (I think Tacitus name checks that one). Both could have been written on the island already, in which case Messalina would not show up in her memoirs at all, since Messalina/Claudius happened during said exile. Otoh most of Agrippina's own life's deeds were still ahead of her during her exile, so instinctively I would say she wrote them during her last years of life instead, in which case some Messalina dissing could have come from her, but we'll never know unless someone somewhere rediscovers the damn Memoirs.)
But even if you discount some of these stories as either misogyny, slander by a rival or exaggaration, there remains the matter of Messalina's downfall, which at the very least makes even the most sympathetic onlooker wonder what the hell she can have been thinking. Because it happens thusly: Messalina falls with a young hot guy named Gaius Silius, who divorces his wife for her. And then she decides she'll divorce Claudius while he's out of town, inaugurating a new harbor in Ostia, and marry Silius. Given that Claudius is not the family joke anymore but the almighty Emperor, this immediately begs the question what the plan was here? Tacitus & Suetonius assume it was to somehow kill Claudius, with Silius then acting as regent for little Britannicus. But if so, you'd think they at the very least try to get the Pretorian Guard on their side - you need the Pretorian guard for a bloody coup, has no one paid attention to Caligula? Anyway, the Freedmen who are Claudius' most powerful ministers find out while Messalina is still celebrating her wedding with Silius in Rome. Then there is the question who should tell Claudius, because Claudius is besotted with his 30 years younger wife and so far has always believed her and not someone else when someone else was protesting. They decide to ask one of Claudius' former mistresses, Calpurnia. Calpurnia does deliver the bad news. Claudius (undoubtedly remembering how Caligula died) asks whether that means he's no longer Emperor, and are the Pretorians still on his side? They are.
Lots of arrests happen. Silius is killed. Messalina tries to reach Claudius with her two little kids, Octavia and Britannicus, in tow, to plead for her life, but Narcissus the Freedman prevents this and shouts a list of her lovers at her while he's at it. Messalina, under guard in the same Gardens of Lucullus she wanted to have with her mother Domitia looking after her, is given the hint that now is the time to do the Roman thing and commit suicide. She tries but doesn't have the courage to do it. So Narcissus orders one of the guards to do it for her. Exit Messalina. (Also exit Mnester the Actor, because while Claudius was sympathetic to his "Caesar, you ordered me explicitly to obey her every command!" defense, he was persuaded by Narcissus the Freedman he still couldn't let an actor walk who had cuckolded him publically.)
Now, trying to figure out what she could have been thinking, there was at least one modern historian who theorized that maybe she was afraid Claudius would get interested in Agrippina and adopt Nero and in order to strike preemptively and ensure Britannicus would inherit, she married Silius. But leaving aside that Claudius can't have been simultanously besotted with Messalina and simultanously already eying up his niece and that this smacks of hindsight, surely then there would have been a better plan than just "let's throw ourselves a grand wedding party first, and then do the actual coup part"?
Agrippina: Without committing myself to a statement as to whether or not I hastened my Uncle-Husband's demise, I will say that years later I had everything ready for a smooth transition to my son. Up to and including the Seneca-written speech, and yes, of course the Pretorians, at this point commanded by my ally Burrus. Messalina might have a blood connection to us Julians, but clearly I'm the only one of our generation who inherited a sense of strategy.
Re: Death of Britannicus: Tacitus / Messalina
Date: 2026-03-12 05:19 am (UTC)mother of the Poppea who would end up as the second Mrs. Nero
And the subject of an opera by Monteverdi! (Which I haven't seen, though I've listened to some of the music.)
And a guy who owned the gardens of Lucullus (yes, that Lucullus, dead for a century at this point)
Wait, no, am I supposed to know this? sorry!
(because a chief criticism ancient historians have of Claudius was that he listened to his Freedmen and his wives instead of Senators)
Ha, lol!
plus of course there's the possibility at least some of this stuff comes from the memoirs of her successor as Empress who at the very least blamed her for the death of her sister, i.e. Agrippina.
Ohhhhh!
And then she decides she'll divorce Claudius while he's out of town, inaugurating a new harbor in Ostia, and marry Silius. Given that Claudius is not the family joke anymore but the almighty Emperor, this immediately begs the question what the plan was here?
...this does seem like a very not-well-thought-out plan!
Claudius (undoubtedly remembering how Caligula died) asks whether that means he's no longer Emperor, and are the Pretorians still on his side? They are.
Okay, I had to look up how Caligula died -- it looks like he was assassinated by Pretorian tribunes? So basically the important question is whose side the Pretorians are on, right?
Exit Messalina. (Also exit Mnester the Actor
And Silius, presumably?
Messalina might have a blood connection to us Julians, but clearly I'm the only one of our generation who inherited a sense of strategy.
Hee, I must agree, really.
Re: Death of Britannicus: Tacitus / Messalina
Date: 2026-03-12 12:53 pm (UTC)Lehndorff comparing both future FW2's first wife and Caroline the young Queen of Denmark to MESSALINA, btw, aims at the cheating in the former case and at the Silius marriage/possible coup plot in the second, because poor Caroline was slandered by stepmother-in-law Julia (herself a sister of EC and Luise, so that's how Lehndorff would have heard about the affair) to have planned keeping husband Christian drugged or possibly killed while she ruled with her lover Struensee the reformminded Doctor, while the frst Mrs. FW2, another Elisabeth Christine, reportedly had affairs with lots of young officers. (Never mind future FW2 had lots of affairs as well.)
Anyway, Silius like Messaline doesn't appear to have been the brightest (whereas Struensee was, so that's another part of the slander), and I did mention in my explanation he got killed!
So basically the important question is whose side the Pretorians are on, right?
Yes, for about a century. To understand why the Praetorians play such an outsize role in deciding who gets to rule, you have to remember that Rome itself is not supposed to have any type of army within its walls in Republican times. When soldiers go there after a completed campaign, they re-enter lives as private citizens. The only reason why they would wear their uniforms within the city walls would be during a triumph. One thing generals are never, ever, supposed to do is lead their armies to Rome itself. Now, in the late Republic (i.e. basically the last century before Christ) when things get pear shaped at an increasing pace, this last taboo gets broken. Sulla does it during his struggle with Marius. Pompey keeps his soldiers close enough that they're lingering when Cicero is supposed to defend Milo, with the net result that Milo gets convicted because Cicero is very nervous and doesn't give the speec he later will publish. And then of course Caesar leads his armies towards Rome and makes himself dictator. By the time we get to the second Triumvirate of Octavian/Antony/Lepidus, it's not even a question that the armies are within city walls.
Once Octavian has won and cleared the field of all competition, starting his transformation to Augustus, he reinstalls the taboo that there should be no army, under no circumstances except during a triumph, within Rome's walls. At the same time, he's aware that there are a lot of people who might not buy into the propaganda of Augustus the peace loving first citizen yet and whose nearest and dearest he had killed when he was still Octavian. So he does need some armed men at hand and under his personal control. Enter the DEFINITELY NOT AN ARMY Praetorians, the only military guys allowed to carry weapons within Rome. The Praetorians really are nothing but a tool in the decades of Augustus' rule, but this changes under Tiberius, because Tiberius can't stand Rome and eventually withdraws to Capri, ruling the Empire from there, living Rome the city under the control of his bff and leader of the Praetorians, Aelius Sejanus. (Patrick Stewart in "I, Claudius".) Sejanus, who isn't of senatorial rank originally but an ambitious go getter, uses this chance for all that it's worth and makes the Praetorians the fearful para military gang of legend. After Sejanus' fall, he's replaced with Macro, and the fact young Gaius (Caligula) cultivates Macro before Tiberius dies is already a signal that by now, it's clear that future Emperors want and need to have the Praetorians on their side. It's the Praetorians who after Caligula's assassination pick Claudius as his successor. The Senate has other ideas, but after a few bloody days it's clear the other ideas won't wash. Claudius has difficulties with the Senate in the first few years of his reign, but eventually things work out, not so coincidentally when he marries Agrippina, who apparantly can work the mixture of flattery and intimidation on the Senate like no one since Augustus. (And also makes sure that one of her clients, Burrus, is appointed head othe Praetorians.) After Nero's death, in the year of the Four Emperors, the Praetorians are instrumental in the picking of the first two Nero replacements but the thing is, by then generals have gotten the idea of marching on Rome again, and the eventual winner, Vespasian, does not win because of the Praetorians. (He's still careful enough to make his son Titus Prefect of the Praetorians after his accession to the throne and the end of the Jewish War (i.e. when Titus is back from Judea). Titus is good at playing grim enforcer to his father's benevolent monarch (so much so that everyone is surprised according to Suetonius when he himself gets to the throne and sheds the bad cop role). Domitian does keep the Praetorians on his side at first but that doesn't save his life. Then we get the series of the "Five Good Emperors" who succeed each other via adoption and all except for the first one, Nerva, are successful generals. The Praetorians don't play an important role in that era. (Trajan is busy campaigning and extending the Roman Empire to its maximum size, and Hadrian is busy travelling all over the Empire. Marcus Aurelius is busy campaigning again. Note this sets decades of precedence of the Emperor not being in Rome itself fo ryears and governing from everywhere else. Then Marcus Aurelius picks his son Commodus the sucky Gladiator guy as a successor, and the Fall and Decline of the Roman Empire (tm Gibbons) officially starts. The Praetorians have their hour of most power after the assassination of Commodus when they literally auction off the office of Emperor to the highest bidder in the Year of the Five Emperors, but this is also the beginning of the end for them, because the eventual winner of that year, Septimius Severus, has had it with the Praetorians and dismisses every single one of them, replacing them with his own men. (He's a general, of course.) The Praetorians are no match for actual army soldiers anymore because they never were in the field, they were just busy terrorizing Rome. In the subsequent decades and especially once the Third Century Crisis starts and Emperors start to drop like flies as general after general tries his luck, the city of Rome loses is importance other than the symbolic one entirely, it's no longer the seat of government, and so what some guys playing soldiers within it think doesn't matter anymore.
Praetorians
Date: 2026-03-13 03:38 am (UTC)Ahhhh wow! okay!
It's the Praetorians who after Caligula's assassination pick Claudius as his successor.
Ohhhh. Why?
In the subsequent decades and especially once the Third Century Crisis starts and Emperors start to drop like flies as general after general tries his luck, the city of Rome loses is importance other than the symbolic one entirely, it's no longer the seat of government, and so what some guys playing soldiers within it think doesn't matter anymore.
Oh wow, okay!
I really appreciate all these writeups. I feel like with each one of them I'm getting a sliiiiightly better sense of what's going on with Rome (when you wrote your fic for Mildred I really had no idea :) )
Re: Praetorians
Date: 2026-03-14 10:40 am (UTC)(This said: Emma Southon is sideeying the "poor old Claudius didn't want to be Emperor and got dragged from behind a curtain" story and speculates that he might have been in communication with the Praetorians before nephew Caligula got assassinated. If so, there was no proof, so it's pure speculation.)
In I, Claudius he does get dragged from behind the curtain, and it's bleakly ironic that he would have been on board with the return of the Republic thing if only the Senators had told him ahead of time, but as it is he doesn't want to get killed by the Praetorians and so becomes Emperor. The scene where he goes from being seen as Claudius the idiot to taking control of the Senate, revealing he's faked his "harmless fool" persona (in addition to the very real physical handicaps) in order to remain alive in his murderous family, is a wonderful acting showcase for Derek Jacobi, of course. Long before the tv show was made, there was an attempt by Alexander Korda to film I, Claudius as an epic movie, but alas it fell apart due to a combination of finances and sick leading lady (Merle Oberon as Messalina). But he did get to film the scene where Claudius, played by Charles Laughton, sheds his Poor Uncle Claudius persona and takes control of the senate as well, and Laughton is fantastic in it, and makes one deeply regret the movie never was finished. You can watch the scene here.
Re: Praetorians
Date: 2026-03-17 04:39 am (UTC)Ohhhhh. That makes a lot of sense.
The scene where they drag Claudius from literally behind a curtain where he was hiding when all hell broke loose
Ahhhh -- this is maybe the only thing I remember from Graves! I really need to read it again.
and it's bleakly ironic that he would have been on board with the return of the Republic thing if only the Senators had told him ahead of time, but as it is he doesn't want to get killed by the Praetorians and so becomes Emperor.
This I didn't remember :) (And, idk, maybe didn't even pick up on at the time -- I was pretty young when I read it.)
But he did get to film the scene where Claudius, played by Charles Laughton, sheds his Poor Uncle Claudius persona and takes control of the senate as well, and Laughton is fantastic in it, and makes one deeply regret the movie never was finished.
Thank you for the link! That was indeed quite impressive.