The Jewish War: First half of Book 2

[cahn]

Last week: Discussion on how Herod stacked up against various Roman emperors in terms of body count of his nearest and dearest; how Friedrich Wilhelm might hear the Josephus text; Herod throwing money around; Cleopatra!

This week: ...uhhhh there was a lot going on and I haven't actually finished the reading yet *ducks* -- I am doing that right now and I should most likely be able to comment tomorrow. (I don't anticipate this being a problem again for at least two more months, and most likely not then either; this was a confluence of various time sinks that doesn't usually happen all at the same time.) But I wanted to go ahead and get the post up because I know you guys have read it... (ETA: have finished the reading now :P :) )

Next week: finishing up Book 2!

Comments

Graves' Claudius and the Republic

[cahn]

What the existence of fake Neros does demonstrate, though, is that he was still popular in some of the provinces, otherwise the fake Neros wouldn’t have been able to con so many people out of support and money so successfully.

Ah right, I remember you mentioned that he was popular in some places.

his Claudius secretly wanted to bring back the republic all his life, missed out on doing so when becoming Emperor, realised too late that when being a good Emperor he was making people fond of the monarchy and then decided to marry the worst woman ever, i.e. Agrippina, and make Nero his successor because he knew Nero would inevitably be the worst of the Julio-Claudians and expected that this would finally make Romans into Republicans again and finish the Principate for good.

Oh wow. This sounds like the kind of justification that can work in a novel and that I would enjoy in a novel buuuuut also seems to rely on so many things as to be rather implausible.

but had a fatal heritage because ever since Robert Graves, every sympathetic Roman character in the Imperial Era wants to bring back the Republic, which, no, no, and no.

Because they wouldn't actually have thought that way?

Re: Graves' Claudius and the Republic

[selenak]

It does work in the novel and in the tv show, as I said, but even within the tv show, they add a scene where Claudius shortly before his death has a conversation with Britannicus where he explains he is not really a tool of Agrippina, he hates her and her son, but the Republic, etc., and Britannicus essentially says: But Dad, no one wants the Republic anymore, and Nero being given the chance to screw up won’t change that. (I.e. the tv show writers were lampshading the problem with this justification).

The other problem within the Graves version is that Claudius isn’t just willing to make Nero his heir over Britannicus so the monarchy will crash and burn, but marries his daughter Octavia to him (which neither Octavia nor Nero are keen on, in this or any other version), and this makes Claudius look far more ruthless towards people he claims to love (i.e. his kids) than the Graves version is supposed to be.

In terms of all the other fictional secret Republicans in movies and tv: most annoying when they’re living centuries later, the Emperor Marcus Aurelius being a case in point. There is absolutely zero indication Marcus Aurelius thought about the Republic at any point of his life, and given we have his “Meditations”, we actually know more about what Marcus Aurelius was thinking than we do of most other Emperors. Graves sells it with Claudius because Claudius never experienced the Republic himself, so can idealize it, and he comes off age when it’s not yet a given that the Principate of Augustus will remain something permanent; that only finalizes when the Senate first confirms Tiberius and then Caligula, whose reigns are anything but a reccomendation for the monarchy. But by the time Marcus Aurelius lives, there has been no other state system but the monarchy anywhere for centuries, and the big question is only “adopt or make my bio son the heir?” Not “Republic?”

Re: Graves' Claudius and the Republic

[cahn]

and Britannicus essentially says: But Dad, no one wants the Republic anymore, and Nero being given the chance to screw up won’t change that. (I.e. the tv show writers were lampshading the problem with this justification).

Heh.

But by the time Marcus Aurelius lives, there has been no other state system but the monarchy anywhere for centuries, and the big question is only “adopt or make my bio son the heir?” Not “Republic?”

Ah, I see, that makes sense!

Re: Graves' Claudius and the Republic

[aella_irene]

Nero pissed off at least two overlapping influential groups in Rome. One of those groups was the Senators (who also produced all the historians) roughly speaking because he thought they were boring old men who didn't do anything except try and stop him doing what he wanted to do.

The other started off as a good thing which became a bad. Following the Great Fire of Rome in 64 AD it became clear that Rome had been so overcrowded, with so little space between buildings, that once the fire had started there was no hope of stopping it, and a fire had been inevitable. Nero therefore instituted a programme of compulsory purchase (similar to what was done in Lisbon post their earthquake and fire) so that streets could be widened. This meant that the owners of the land lost some of it, and didn't feel they'd been adequately recompensed. Unfortunately, Nero (who had lost his palace in the fire) decided that he too deserved a little treat, and kept a chunk of the land to build his Domus Aurea on, which gave rise to speculation that he'd set the whole thing going so he could build a new palace. (I've seen a reconstruction, the Domus Aurea was very nice...)

The reconstruction of the city also required heavy taxation, and Nero ended up devaluing the currency, which is rarely a good idea. Still, he was immediately popular among the people, partly because, in the immediate aftermath of the fire, gardens and public buildings were opened to refugees, and food was distributed. I think he was also popular amongst the army, who he thought were 'real' Romans, as opposed to those wealthy Senators sitting on their arses saying he couldn't do things and failing to appreciate his mastery of the water organ.

Re: Graves' Claudius and the Republic

[cahn]

Unfortunately, Nero (who had lost his palace in the fire) decided that he too deserved a little treat, and kept a chunk of the land to build his Domus Aurea on, which gave rise to speculation that he'd set the whole thing going so he could build a new palace. (I've seen a reconstruction, the Domus Aurea was very nice...)

Ohhhh this makes a lot of sense, both that he might do that and also that this would give rise to speculation!

as opposed to those wealthy Senators sitting on their arses saying he couldn't do things and failing to appreciate his mastery of the water organ.

...water organ??