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cahnIn the previous post Charles II found AITA:
Look, I, m, believe in live and let live. (And in not going on my travels again. Had enough of that to last a life time.) Why can't everyone else around me be more chill? Instead, my wife refuses to employ my girlfriend, my girlfriend won't budge and accept another office, my brother is set on a course to piss off everyone (he WILL go on his travels again), and my oldest kid shows signs of wanting my job which is just not on, sorry to say. And don't get me started about Mom (thank God she's living abroad). What am I doing wrong? AITA?
Look, I, m, believe in live and let live. (And in not going on my travels again. Had enough of that to last a life time.) Why can't everyone else around me be more chill? Instead, my wife refuses to employ my girlfriend, my girlfriend won't budge and accept another office, my brother is set on a course to piss off everyone (he WILL go on his travels again), and my oldest kid shows signs of wanting my job which is just not on, sorry to say. And don't get me started about Mom (thank God she's living abroad). What am I doing wrong? AITA?
Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-04-25 08:29 am (UTC)Anyway, the last part features Joseph as a new main character, and on the level this show is, does a reasonably good job with him. (The actor does a reasonably good job, too.) The Mimi/Isabella affair is (explicitly) there, though because of the time jump between FS' death and MT's death, we jump over the death of Joseph's daughter, too. The character most bewilderingly drawn is Kaunitz. Because in the earlier installments, the show gave MT other Trusty Lieutenants in her cabinet, Kaunitz early in this one doesn't show up to deliver the Diplomatic Revolution, he shows up (early in the not mentioned for eons 7 Years War) Not Delivering the MA/Louis marriage that MT wanted him to deliver because Louis XV refuses to marry his grandson to an undereducated princess like her, with the result that MT then orders MA to be raised exclusively French so she fits Versailles criteria. MA also gets send away to France before FS dies (
Historical Kaunitz: I can only conclude the King of Prussia was a co-author of this script. After all, he never forgave me for outwitting him diplomatically and kept bitching about me and my in his opinion undeserved reputation as a political mastermind. Making me an incompetent swindler who can't even deliver a marriage sounds like his kind of slander.
What I mean with: the show did a reasonably good job with Joseph:
Joseph: I want to be a working Emperor! Unlike you, Dad. Yay reforms!
FS: One can work in the financial sector, too.
MT: Reforms need to be used sparingly.
Joseph: But I want to live a useful life NOW!
MT: I have a useful marriage lined up for you.
Joseph: I don't think I'll be a good husband. I don't want to be married, I want to work.
MT: Let me put it this way: the dynasty needs to continue. No more crisis like in my father's day. So you either marry, or you join a monastary and let your brother Leopold be Emperor-in-waiting.
Joseph: *glares and falls silent*
Joseph: *is ultra nervous before his first marriage* (which he was)
MT: Franz, you need to explain marital duties to our eldest before his bride arrives her. Go have the talk!
FS: *interprets "having the talk* differently: Joseph, theory will only get you so far. I'll take you to a brothel so you can practice a bit before your bride arrives.
Joseph: *looks vaguely ill*
Leopold: I want to join and practice marital duties, too!
FS: Aren't you a bit young for that! But okay, come along.
(Sidenote: since Leopold was born 1747. Joseph married Isabella in 1760. So Leopold would have been 13, but since the show pointedly does not mention any dates, I dare say he's meant to be 15 or thereabouts.)
Brothel: *lines up ladies*
Leopold: *pounces* I'm taking this one. *runs upstairs with a girl*
Joseph: *looks still ill*
FS: *selects lady für Joseph, who moves him upstairs*
Joseph: *feels more embarassed by the minute, goes downstairs again without sex, sees FS making out with several of the other girls, does not forget this and will bring it up years later*
Isabella arrives, Joseph is smitten on sight, Isabella is not. Wedding night:
Isabella: *looks miserable, waiting for him*
Joseph: *ultra nervous, smitten, but noting she's miserable and afraid* We don't have do it tonight, don't worry. But I can't leave the bedroom with everyone waiting outside. I'll sleep on the couch.
Isabella: *perks up a bit* That's nice of you, but you'll be cold on the couch. You may sleep next to me.
Joseph: *thus has a chance making his wife like him*
Joseph: *once lying next to Isabella, gazing at her adoringly* ...Or we could do it now, get it behind us, you know?
Isabella: *is disappointed, any chance she might like him dies* *endures clumsy first time sex on Joseph#s part*
Isabella falls in love with Mimi who is characterised as cheerful and forward, and seduces her after having persuaded Isabella to pose for her in a painting au naturel. The two have a passionate affair while Joseph does not have a clue. Mimi is presented as already engaged to Albert, but basically a lesbian who just thinks Albert is the least dreadful option among the available princes; no mention of this as a love match.
Minion who is not Kaunitz: *intercepts letter from Isabella to Mimi, the text of which is actually one of the historical (unbowlderised) ones, presents it to MT*
MT: catches Isabella and Mimi in the act: Okay, this won't do. Mimi, your marriage to Albert is sped up, and then I'm sending you two elsewhere, and Isabella, not a word of this to Joseph. It would break his heart.
FS: However, until Mimi marries, you may stay together.
MT: ?!?
FS (when they're alone): Look, I think the affair is a disaster, too, but you want to be a grandmother, don't you? Anything that helps Isabella getting in the mood...
Isabella: *is depressed, gets pregnant, is even more depressed*
Mimi: Cheer up, once you've had the kid, you only need to meet it for the holidays and otherwise the servants will take care of it.
Isabella: *notices that Mimi isn't depressed, is even more depressed*
MT: Dr. Swieten, you will attend my daughter-in-law.
Swieten: But a new bout of smallpox is raging! I need to work at my smallpox hospital!
MT: Not until you've helped Isabella safely deliver her baby, you don't.
Isabella: *gives birth to MT Junior*
Joseph: *like his father back in the day, is not disappointed about girl babies, adores*
Isabella: *wanders somehow to Dr. Swieten's smallpox hospital in her nightgown and infects herself deliberately with smallpox so she may die*
(Sidenote: I can understand the script skipping Isabella's second pregnancy, but the idea that either Swieten's smallpox hospital being in the Hofburg or that Isabella post birth would just wander underattended through Vienna till she gets there is too much ebven for this show.)
Joseph: *mourns violently, as in, bashes head against her coffin*
MT: *tries to comfort Joseph, is bad at it*
Joseph: *storms off to Mimi*
Mimi: *sits in her atelier with the nude painting of Isabella*
Joseph: *takes that in*
Explosion: *does not happen*
Joseph: I wanted to be with someone who knows how I feel. *sits down next to Mimi. They silently take each other's hands and cry*
Selena: You know, I wish that had happened. Would have been so much better for their relationship.
Joseph: Mom, I'm off to travel!
(A bit ahead of schedule, since FS is still alive, but fine. As I said, the show really plays loose with dates in order to not let FS die till almost the end.)
Joseph: *back from travel* Okay, here are all the backwards sucky things happening in our Empire. The nobility sucks! The church sucks! We need to abolish serfdom NOW!
MT: Look, son, we can't do without the nobility. It's not that I'm against all your ideas. Some are actually, much as I hate to admit it for ideological reasons, good. I mean that. You'll be a great monarch if you only manage to get the balance...
Joseph: Well, I had a great role model.
MT: *is touched* Joseph...
Joseph: The greatest monarch in Europe, who pursues reforms without anything holding him back, who has his nobility in line, and doesn't kowtow to the church.
*cut to MT and FS later*
FS: Seriously? He threw Friedrich at you?
MT: *fuming* "Has the nobility in line, as if. That guy doesn't get more concessions from his nobility than I get of mine!
FS: *amused* Still, I have to say Joseph is a courageous man. Ah well. Maybe a second marriage will calm him down, keep him busy and continue the dynasty.
MT: Excellent idea!
Joseph: I DO NOT WANT TO MARRY AGAIN.
MT: It's your duty to! The girl in question, Josepha, is the daughter of the Bavarian Duke, and Friedrich is all set to snatch her for his nephew. I don't have to spell out to you why a Bavaria/Prussia team-up would be very bad for us, do I?
Joseph's second marriage: *takes place*
Joseph in his second wedding night: Sorry. I'm not going to have sex with you, ever.
Josepha: But why did you marry me?
Joseph: Because of politics and my parents. All I can offer you is politice distance. Goodbye!
*a few months later, MT finds out there is no marital sex*
MT: Franz, you need to talk to the boy.
FS: *tries so*
Joseph: *explodes in a cold, controlled way* Actually, no. I literally can't have sex with her because I have syphilis. Ask Swieten.
Swieten: He does.
Joseph: And I have syphilis because I went to the brothel like you taught me to, so thanks for that, Dad. I go there, and I hate myself, but I know what I am, and I don't pretend otherwise. But you, you pretend at marital love while making out with prostitutes, I can't tell you how much you disgust me!
FS: *stunned*
Josepha: *dies of smallpox, with MT at her deathbed, guilty apologizing for the marriage*
(That's pretty historical - not the point blank apology, but that MT, who hadn't liked Josepha nearly as much as Isabella, took care of her during her sickness out of guilt for the entire disastrous situation*.)
MT: We do need some good news. Leopold, it's your turn to get married now! But not in Vienna, where there's still smallpox, in Innsbruck, where I'll also see my dear banished friend Countess Fritz again.
Swieten to FS: You shouldn't travel at all, you're sick.
FS: *keeps this a secret from MT and everyone else*
FS, Leopold, Joseph: *in a carriage to Innsbruck*
Leopold: Thanks for Tuscany as a wedding present, Dad, that's super nice of you.
Joseph: I think it's a bad idea, Tuscany should remain with the Empire.
Leopold: As if! *hops out of the carriage first*
FS: Look, Joseph, about what you said. I do love your mother. I've never stopped loving her. But it's hard for a man to live next to someone like your mother. So now and then, I just need space. Can you understand that? It's not like these frivolities are taking anything away from her. She doesn't mind.
Joseph: Oh, doesn't she? You're kidding yourself. Mom and I argue a lot, and I'm not saying I always get her, but I get how she loves, and she minds, and you're just making excuses.
FS: *collapses, dies in Joseph's arms*
Joseph: *guilt trip*
Reading of FS testament*
Testament reader: Basically, FS bought up all the debts of the Austrian state which evil scheming Kaunitz caused due to the paper money. 7 Years War debts, what 7 years war debts?
Joseph: *throws the debt notes into the fire*
Leopold: But that was money you were owed, you idiot!
Joseph: I'm not going to make the state pay ME. We need to live for the state.
Testament reader: Also, FS set up his other millions in a family fund so that the Habsburgs can live of them for the next two hundred years.
Leopold: Haha. I get money, you do not.
Joseph: You're off to Tuscany. That's not a request. I'm the Emperor.
Selena: That's not quite how the arguments about FS' money went, but okay, close enough for this show.
*eight years later* (ETA: in reality, there were 15 years between FS' death and MT's)
MT chats with Mimi:
Mimi: So, no kids for Albert and me, but we'll found a nifty museum called the Albertina.
MT: *collapses*
MT: *spends the rest of her screentime slowly dying, in a chair not in the bed, which is true*
Joseph: *notified of original collapse in his office, where a portrait of Fritz hangs - btw the only Fritz as King portrait supposedly painted in his life time and based on a sitting:
Joseph to servant: *put a bed for me in Mom's antechamber, I'm staying with her*
Joseph: *does so*
(MT's other kids, Marianne, Elisabeth, Mimi, son in law Albert, who also spend much of her dying days with her, are absent, but okay in the interest of dramatic focus, and Joseph was the one with her ALL the time during those days.)
MT and Joseph: *have a conversation where he basically signals he now understands she and FS truly loved each other and that FS wanted the best for the Empire and she signals she's proud of Joseph*
MT: *makes funeral arrangement for herself in voiceover while we see it play out on screen*
Show: *credits MT with inventing the Habsburg ceremonial at the Capppuchin crypt, the three times knocking, which she did not*
Saga: ends.
In conclusion: Not a must, and there are some truly bewildering choices - all things Kaunitz, and Ophelia!Isabella wandering into the small pox hospital - even for the pop corn entertainment level it aims at. Not to mention that the script deigns to mention the 7 Years War only when it ends. Also, the actress playing old MT is often too stiff, so the difference between MT post FS' death doesn't come across like the script wants it to. But some parts of it work, it does get across some of the push-pull dynamic between Joseh and MT, Joseph's capacity for self sabotage, and the "I had a great role model" exchange is truly hilarious.
Oh, and there's also this, when MT the widow is talking to Swieten after her collapse.
Swieten: You know what King Friedrich of Prussia has said about you, your majesty?
Selena: I can think of many things, but I have no idea which one these scriptwriters might have picked. "The Habsburgs have only produced one man in two centuries, and it's a woman" would not be something Swieten would mention to her, surely? And that was one of the nicer things.
Swieten: There's only one man sitting on the thrones of Europe along with me right now, and it's a woman: Maria Theresia.
MT: *snorts*
Catherine the Great: *does not exist*
Joseph: *sits in his office with the Fritz portrait in the very next scene*
Selena: I can see why you changed the quote, script, but I don't think you've thought through the implications...
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-04-27 11:04 pm (UTC)Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-04-28 05:20 am (UTC)The Mimi/Isabella affair is (explicitly) there
Yay!
Historical Kaunitz: I can only conclude the King of Prussia was a co-author of this script. After all, he never forgave me for outwitting him diplomatically and kept bitching about me and my in his opinion undeserved reputation as a political mastermind. Making me an incompetent swindler who can't even deliver a marriage sounds like his kind of slander.
HAHAHAHA
Leopold: *pounces* I'm taking this one. *runs upstairs with a girl*
I'm dying thinking about show!Leopold going on to write about how Joseph was getting it on with everyone...
and becoming Don Joe, because that will never not be funnyJoseph: *once lying next to Isabella, gazing at her adoringly* ...Or we could do it now, get it behind us, you know?
Isabella: *is disappointed, any chance she might like him dies* *endures clumsy first time sex on Joseph#s part*
:( This sounds... honestly kind of plausible, and anyway heartbreaking for poor Isabella :(
Isabella: *wanders somehow to Dr. Swieten's smallpox hospital in her nightgown and infects herself deliberately with smallpox so she may die*
*blinks* This, on the other hand...
Joseph: I wanted to be with someone who knows how I feel. *sits down next to Mimi. They silently take each other's hands and cry*
<33333 Oh, this is... I wish this had happened IRL too.
MT: Look, son, we can't do without the nobility. It's not that I'm against all your ideas. Some are actually, much as I hate to admit it for ideological reasons, good. I mean that. You'll be a great monarch if you only manage to get the balance...
MT! :D
Joseph: Well, I had a great role model.
OH VIENNAJOE NO
Joseph: *explodes in a cold, controlled way* Actually, no. I literally can't have sex with her because I have syphilis. Ask Swieten.
I... um. He didn't actually have syphilis, right? I feel like I would have known this before now. Also mercury *shudder*
Joseph: *notified of original collapse in his office, where a portrait of Fritz hangs - btw the only Fritz as King portrait supposedly painted in his life time and based on a sitting:
Huh. He... looks much nicer in that picture :P
Swieten: There's only one man sitting on the thrones of Europe along with me right now, and it's a woman: Maria Theresia.
Joseph: *sits in his office with the Fritz portrait in the very next scene*
Selena: I can see why you changed the quote, script, but I don't think you've thought through the implications...
AHAHAHAHA
Although the Habsburgs quote would have the same unfortunate implications, wouldn't it?
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-04-28 07:00 am (UTC)Well, yes. There's no avoiding the unfortuante implications if you're going to use a "the only man" statement, and unfortunately the other three complimentary Fritz statements re: MT aren't useable either. One because it was made after her death (the "We fought, but I was never her enemy" one to D'Alembert), and the other two were "at least she's not a whore and hates whores" (slightly paraphrased, and anyway Mildred found out that Henri de Catt altered that one in his memoirs) and, hilariously, in a written pep talk to one of his people during Silesia 2, "In Silesia 1, the Queen of Hungary didn't budge when someone invaded her homeland despite of how dangereous it looked, and now you're complaining to me?").
...okay, now I've looked up the original Fritz quote from the D'Alembert letter, and it's worth repeating: And yet, I have regretted the death of the Empress-Queen: she brought honor to her throne and sex; I have gone to war with her, but I was never her enemy. Regarding the Emperor, the son of this great woman: I know him personally; he seemed too enlightened to me to me to make overhasty steps; I esteem him and do not fear him.
The son of this great woman is also the coming menace when it suits Fritzian propaganda, of course. Back to your comments on my review.
Leopold being the one eager to pounce on prostitutes in the show in the light of Leopold later presenting Joseph as the one who can't get enough of them amused me, too. Re: Mimi/Isabella being unambigously an on screen affair: for all its inaccuracies, one thing the MT series can't be accused of is being homophobic or pretending the historical world consists of only straight peopole. Fritz never shows up on screen, but everyone describes him as gay (and gives him his father's fetish for tall guys for good measure). Prince Eugene in part 1 (who is a sympathetic and tragic character) doesn't have any on screen action due to his age, but he's also presented as a gay man. And Isabella/Mimi do have on screen action, with both written as lesbians (as opposed to Mimi as bi), presumably as not to make Mimi look less invested in Isabella than Isabella is in her.
This sounds... honestly kind of plausible
Yup. When I watched it, I thought, I could see that happening in rl as well. Sounds Josephian to me. Poor Isabella.
Joseph: Well, I had a great role model.
OH VIENNAJOE NO
I was on the floor. Mind you, until this point there had been no mention of Joseph's secret fannishness, so the audience the show is aiming for (i.e. doesn't know their 7 Years War from their 30 Years War, at best knows MT was Austrian) can't have seen it coming, but the moment he said that I knew what would follow.
Huh. He... looks much nicer in that picture :P
Well, in reality it was painted by sister Charlotte's court painter for herself; Fritz' nieces (that would be AW's daughter Wilhelmine the future Queen of Holland, Wilhelmine's daughter Friederike the Duchess of Würtemberg, and Anna Amalia the Duchess of Weimar, Charlotte's daughter, as well as her sister EC Junior the future first wife of FW2) and newly ascended to the throne G3 also got a copy each. (Whether young G3, who said apropos Fritz' letter re: no more Englislh support money that no one had ever talked to him as impudently, was thrilled is another question.) Whether it was indeed the only portrait of King (as opposed to Crown Prince, as prince he sat repeatedly for various painters) Fritz for which he actually sat is disputed these days according to the painter's wiki entry, and current theory is that the painter had to content himself with making sketches of Fritz while meeting him, but that Fritz didn't sit while the actual oil painting was created. But in any case, it was painted in 1763, directly after the 7 Years War ended, and Fritz famously had aged rapidly during that war, as well as lost weight, so presumably in rl he looked more haggard. But a court painter in the 18th century is in the business of offering flattering likenesses that still somewhat resemble their subjects, not hardcore realism. Then again, maybe the fact the war was over now and he'd come out with all his territory intact against four foreign powers put Fritz into an extra good mood while the painter sketched him.
I... um. He didn't actually have syphilis, right?
It was one of the rumors making the rounds due to Joseph not marrying a third time and not having any known bastards. When that happens with a ruling monarch who has a vested interest in continuing his dynasty, people search for explanations, especially since they don't have access to the monarch's private correspondance.
ETA:also worth bearing in mind that not only did Joseph come from a famously fertile family, he himself had gotten Isabella pregnant repeatedly in their few years of marriage, so there was no question of him having started out as sterile. /ETA.
Now, in ViennaJoe's case, we have the letter when Leopold has his first son (that's when MT is still alive) with the "THANK YOU GREAT POPULATOR!" congratulations making it very clear Joseph was really determined not to marry again and was glad Leopold solved the dynastic question for him, we also know he really really hadn't wanted the second marriage to begin with, and that he was still traumatized by Isabella's death and grieving when it happened. But the avarage contemporary doesn't know that, the avarage contemporary sees an Emperor who does not procreate either legally or illegally. With Fritz, that contributed to the "gay? gay!" stories, but in combination with the "got STD as a young man" story. Because, let's face it, STD (whether gonorrhea or the more damaging syphilis) is something that's more likely to happen than not in an age where "safer sex" isn't on the menu. You didn't even have to be promiscious to get it - just think of the wife of Charles Hanbury-Williams, who was infected by her husband and understably cut off relations because of it. (Thankfully, she didn't get as severe a case of syphilis as her husband did, who died of it after losing his mind first.)
Now, as to whether historical Joseph had it: we have no idea. If he had often sex with prostitutes, the likelihood is certainly higher than otherwise, but then again, see above, having had sex just once with the wrong person is enough to catch an infection. Also, on the other end of the scale, being promiscious doesn't have to mean you also catch an STD - Charles II. certainly had a lot of sex in his life time, and yet managed to avoid an infection. (How do we know? Because Restoration gossip certainly would have pounced on it. As it did in the case of two of Charles' pals, Buckingham and later Rochester.) He certainly haven't had third degree syphilis, though, since he remained compos mentis till the end.
Speaking of the sex lives of European monarchs, the MT & Mimi chat after the time skip and before MT collapses also had this bit:
Mimi: I hear MA got pregnant. Yay!
MT: About time, too. I had to send Joseph to Paris for that to happen.
Mimi: Really?
MT: Indeed. As it turned out, young Louis had no idea of how to go about it, and Joseph had to explain it in detail.
Mimi: A French King who needs to be told how to have sex by an Austrian. Mama, you've truly changed the face of Europe.
Dr. Freud and Dr. Ruth, in the future: You have no idea what's coming.
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-04-30 01:44 pm (UTC)I know, me too! I was like, "Didn't we just read a disapproving letter from Leopold?" Mind you, none of this says anything about how he felt when he was very young. ;)
Mimi: A French King who needs to be told how to have sex by an Austrian.
Hahahaha! It's true, the last two French kings are turning over in their respective graves, and Henri IV can't believe his ghostly ears.
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-05-01 06:16 am (UTC)Also, there's the law of projection and accusing your brother (literally) of what you are guilty of. Even though Pelham thinks we can take Leopold at his word re: Joseph & prostitutes but must not believe Leopold's enemies and the gossips who accuse him of having shagged every moving female in the vicinity throughout his life.
More seriously, I dare say adult Leopold prided himself on having sex without paying for it - in cash, that is. Nice town palaces and wardrobe and jewelry etc. for mistresses are completely different.
It's true, the last two French kings are turning over in their respective graves, and Henri IV can't believe his ghostly ears.
Presumably Louis XIII is the only Bourbon king up to that point who doesn't feel Louis XVI let down the side with this in the hereafter...
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-05-01 03:16 pm (UTC)Exactly what I was thinking! Everyone else is yelling from beyond the grave, "This is what you call keeping up the family traditions, young man?" :P
Louis XIII
Date: 2022-05-05 05:05 am (UTC)Totally different! ;)
Presumably Louis XIII is the only Bourbon king up to that point who doesn't feel Louis XVI let down the side with this in the hereafter...
More about Louis XIII? I read wikipedia and it said he might be gay? How much should I trust wikipedia?
Re: Louis XIII
Date: 2022-05-05 08:10 am (UTC)The Louis XIII & Richelieu relationship was really interesting in that it did not fall into any obvious tropes. Louis had started out disliking not-yet-Richelieu, and he was won over by the sheer competence. Otoh, he was very aware people said Richelieu was the true King and resented that. They were fifteen years apart, which isn't quite enough for a father/son relationship, but ensured they weren't really of the same generation, either, though Louis at times confided in Richelieu about very personal stuff, too. In the last years of their lives, the Cinq Mars affair happened, which was a tragedy on various levels. Cinq Mars, young, pretty, none too bright, son of one of Richelieu's (dead) loyal lieutenants, was introduced to Louis by Richelieu as a seemingly safe option for "latest favourite". Only then it turned out Cinq Mars had a massive ego. He even quarrelled with the King (Richelieu had to reconcile them, we have the letters). Then he wanted to marry one of Louis' rich cousins, which would have meant he'd become a part of the royal family, at which point Richelieu heard the alarm bells ringing and said no. This made Cinq Mars turn against him. Richelieu always had a surplus of enemies, with whom Cinq Mars now teamed up, promising his co-conspirators he could get Louis' approval for an assassination of Richelieu the way teenage Louis had greenlighted the disposal of Concini all those years ago. He didn't quite succeed, but what he got was a lame no. Louis said "He's a Cardinal, I'd be excommunicated", whereupon de Treville, the boss of the Musketeers, said it would be his honor to go to Rome and get a papal forgiveness for the King. Louis didn't say anything anymore, which could have been a silent okay. Or not. We'll never know.
However, Richelieu still had the better spies. Once he'd learned of the plan, and learned that Cinq Mars (which he hadn't told Louis) had approached the Spaniards (offering to make peace after Richelieu's death), which given that France was at war with Spain was treason, and presented all the proof against Cinq Mars, Louis had no choice but to sign Cinq Mars' death sentence instead. (By executioner, not assassination.) And he did make Louis sign that warrant in person. (Presumably he didn't feel too warmly about the King right then once he'd learned Louis' defense of him had amounted to "he's a Cardinal, I'd be excommunicated", this after decades of working for the guy). The lethal irony as that both Richelieu and Louis were already very sick at that point. They only lived for another year or so after Cinq Mars' execution, Louis outliving Richelieu by only six months or so. Richelieu did get Louis to promise that after the Cardinal's death, Richelieu's protegé Mazarin would succeed him as de facto PM (the title didn't exist yet, but that's what the job amounted to), and Louis did keep that promise. (Richelieu: one of the very few men of power not afraid to find and train a gifted successor to take their place, which meant that after his death, the system they'd built around them didn't collapse. Looking at you, Bismarck, who didn't do that because ego. Or you, Fritz.)
In between Luynes and Cinq Mars, there were a couple of other male and one female favourite for Louis XIII, but as opposed to either of his sons, gossip didn't think he actually had sex with them, which is why I think he'd be the one Bourbon sympathizing with Louis XVI!
Re: Louis XIII
Date: 2022-05-13 04:56 am (UTC)Someone who watched this and never forgot it was young Armand du Plessis, bishop of Lucon
Oh wow. This whole story is just fascinating and I'm just imagining Armand/Richelieu thinking of Concini the whole time.
This all led to a showdown at the so called "Day of Dupes" where Maria de' Medici gave her son a "Richelieu or me!" ultimatum, and thought she'd won. So did a lot of courtiers who promptly showed their hostility against Richelieu. Except that as it turned out, the Cardinal had won, Louis picked him. Cue again and forever exiled Queen Mother and a lot of scrambling courtiers.
! and this is epic!
Louis had started out disliking not-yet-Richelieu, and he was won over by the sheer competence. Otoh, he was very aware people said Richelieu was the true King and resented that.
...maybe this doesn't have a trope name, but I really like it! (I am just a sucker for all-out competence in any form, really.)
They were fifteen years apart, which isn't quite enough for a father/son relationship, but ensured they weren't really of the same generation, either, though Louis at times confided in Richelieu about very personal stuff, too.
...this is great. So they don't even quite fall into the uneasy friends/almost enemies trope, although it sounds like it's also time-dependent.
Louis said "He's a Cardinal, I'd be excommunicated", whereupon de Treville, the boss of the Musketeers, said it would be his honor to go to Rome and get a papal forgiveness for the King. Louis didn't say anything anymore
LOUIS
The lethal irony as that both Richelieu and Louis were already very sick at that point.
Ohhhhh, that really is lethal irony.
Richelieu: one of the very few men of power not afraid to find and train a gifted successor to take their place, which meant that after his death, the system they'd built around them didn't collapse.
Yay! I remember you'd mentioned this before (but not until you mentioned it again, thank you as usual for being patient with me!)
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-04-28 07:08 pm (UTC)I keep wondering, so I'll ask - nicer than what? His reputation? Other paintings? ...? :D
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-04-28 09:29 pm (UTC)Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-05-01 11:11 pm (UTC)Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-04-28 06:23 pm (UTC)Historical Kaunitz: I can only conclude the King of Prussia was a co-author of this script. After all, he never forgave me for outwitting him diplomatically and kept bitching about me and my in his opinion undeserved reputation as a political mastermind. Making me an incompetent swindler who can't even deliver a marriage sounds like his kind of slander.
Me: Heeee.
Fritz: As always, Count Kaunitz likes to hear himself talk. May I point out what I wrote about him in 1770 [to my Envoy Rohd in Vienna], after I had to spent hours upon hours listening to him in Neustadt:
[...] I tell you in secret that he has indoctrinated me long enough. I think I have understood his character. I take him for a man of great mind, he has sound and clear judgment, but he is so prejudiced about himself that he thinks himself an oracle in politics and the others schoolboys whom he wants to indoctrinate. As for me, I think he only took me for a soldier who had no idea of politics, and I can't deny that he amused me a little.
See also my memoirs: This man had a good mind but was full of quirks. To interrupt him while speaking meant to insult him. Instead of conversing, he gave speeches, because he liked listening to himself more than to anyone else.
Also, when I told young Emperor Joseph everything we'd talked about, he appreciated that very much, since [Kaunitz] treated him very condescendingly and more like his subordinate than his master.
(Maybe I see why they cast him as the bad guy after all, ha.)
Joseph: But I want to live a useful life NOW!
MT: I have a useful marriage lined up for you.
AW: Seems familiar.
Isabella: *wanders somehow to Dr. Swieten's smallpox hospital in her nightgown and infects herself deliberately with smallpox so she may die*
Oooooookay then. What the.
Joseph: Well, I had a great role model.
Ha. Also, I'm amused that FS was amused by this.
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-04-30 02:17 pm (UTC)Fritz's retinue and visitors: *simultaneously start coughing*
Or, to quote Shaw:
When a lion meets another with a louder roar "the first lion thinks the last a bore."
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-04-30 07:38 pm (UTC)To be fair, though, I got curious, skimmed PolKor, and lest you think Fritz is exaggerating, here's Kaunitz in just a few of his own words, from his report to MT:
[...] As soon as I entered his study, the King made me sit down, and, to further my project and without giving him time to start the conversation, I told him first: that I had come to profit with great pleasure from the honor which he wished to do me by conversing with me; but that, as I did not in any way resemble either my predecessors or my contemporaries in politics, I was far from taking the advantage that was, according to them, in being able to listen and not having to place your bet first. As I wanted our conversation to be of some use, I begged him to kindly begin by listening quietly and without interrupting me to everything I would say to him. That I thought I had to do it that way, because I was very happy to put him in a position to be able to judge by the things I would say to him, what he thought he could say to me from his side, as well as the tone which he could take with me after having heard me.
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-04-30 07:46 pm (UTC)And no, I don't think Fritz was exaggerating--I think Fritz was telling the truth, and that he was someone who would be particularly put out by an encounter like this, since *he's* supposed to do most of the talking!
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-05-01 11:15 pm (UTC)(Maybe I see why they cast him as the bad guy after all, ha.)
Hee! What does Joseph say about Kaunitz?
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-05-02 07:39 am (UTC)In detail, when Joseph was younger and MT was still alive, he shared some ideas with Kaunitz (they both wanted to reduce the influence of the Church, for example, and Kaunitz was generally on Team Enlightenment, just not at the speed Joseph wanted it to happen), but was very impatient regarding the later's ponderous ways, and there were arguments all around in various combinations among the ruling trio, with one of the three usually falling back on the offer of retirement as the last weapon. One item where it was Joseph + Kaunitz against MT was the first partitioning of Poland, which the two guys were all ready to do from the start. (Apocryphical Fritz snark not withstanding, MT really did have to be dragged into this.) OTOH, it was Kaunitz + MT against Joseph in the mess that was the War of the Bavarian Succession.
re: Kaunitz as a Diplomat - his big coups in that capacity were, in addition to the Diplomatic Revolution (which he largely accomplished while Austrian Envoy in Paris): years earlier, in the first two Silesian Wars, he won the support of Victor Emmanuel III. for MT against Fritz (clearly, sending Algarotti to do this hadn't had the same effect), and he managed to get MT's youngest son Max as Coadjutator in Cologne and Münster after centuries of the Wittelsbachs having a lockhold on the job. (This was important because it meant the Habsburgs regained some influence among the Northern German princes.) His reputation for vanity was definitely deserved, but he did have the skills to back it up. It should also be said that with Kaunitz, MT and Joseph all three having powerful personalities, it's a not so minor phenomenon that they were able to work with each other, arguments and occasional "fine, be like that, I'm going to retire!" threats not withstanding, for fifteen years. Conversely, Fritz had capable people in his administration, too, but there's no example of him being able to work with someone else on that level. (Fredersdorf had a personality of his own, of course, but he was entirely dependent on Fritz, which is a different situation.) At least in peace time; Heinrich in the 7 Years War comes closest, which brings us to Beales' comparison again (that Heinrich/Fritz = Joseph/MT).
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-05-05 04:46 am (UTC)Yeah, that is really something, especially when one is used to Fritz :) But even aside from Fritz's example or lack thereof, I feel like you would have to be pretty strongly functional to do that with three strong personalities for that long, no matter what the context.
At least in peace time; Heinrich in the 7 Years War comes closest, which brings us to Beales' comparison again (that Heinrich/Fritz = Joseph/MT).
and there were arguments all around in various combinations among the ruling trio, with one of the three usually falling back on the offer of retirement as the last weapon.
I mean. Yeah.
Heinrich: But I actually did resign from the army! Because Fritz was that much worse.
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-04-30 01:21 pm (UTC)I have to admit, this is weirding me out. Did they pick this name intentionally? Of all the possible names...!
I can only conclude the King of Prussia was a co-author of this script. After all, he never forgave me for outwitting him diplomatically and kept bitching about me and my in his opinion undeserved reputation as a political mastermind. Making me an incompetent swindler who can't even deliver a marriage sounds like his kind of slander.
LOL!
FS: *interprets "having the talk* differently: Joseph, theory will only get you so far. I'll take you to a brothel so you can practice a bit before your bride arrives.
Joseph: *looks vaguely ill*
Leopold: I want to join and practice marital duties, too!
FS: Aren't you a bit young for that! But okay, come along.
ROFL! The characterization here is amaaaazing.
Isabella: *is disappointed, any chance she might like him dies* *endures clumsy first time sex on Joseph#s part*
:-(
MT: ?!?
FS (when they're alone): Look, I think the affair is a disaster, too, but you want to be a grandmother, don't you? Anything that helps Isabella getting in the mood...
Wow.
Joseph: I wanted to be with someone who knows how I feel. *sits down next to Mimi. They silently take each other's hands and cry*
Selena: You know, I wish that had happened. Would have been so much better for their relationship.
Awwww, yeah.
Joseph: Well, I had a great role model.
MT: *is touched* Joseph...
Joseph: The greatest monarch in Europe, who pursues reforms without anything holding him back, who has his nobility in line, and doesn't kowtow to the church.
LOL OMG!! Uh, yeah, ViennaJoe, your mother's right on this one. Fritz made his nobility the cornerstone of his approach to ruling. Like, he was specifically hamstrung in some of his reform efforts (like abolishing feudalism in the places where it still lingered) because he built his entire military around the concepts of "nobles serve" and "officers must be noble" and "officers lead from the front lines" and "I decimated my nobility in the Seven Years' War enforcing all that leading from the front line."
And I'm in agreement with Beales, FW had more success in fundamental reforms than Joseph because he worked *with* his nobility, not against, and Fritz was conservative enough not to mess with that.
But yeah, you just keep telling yourself that. :P
FS: *amused* Still, I have to say Joseph is a courageous man.Joseph: Oh, doesn't she? You're kidding yourself. Mom and I argue a lot, and I'm not saying I always get her, but I get how she loves, and she minds, and you're just making excuses.
FS: *collapses, dies in Joseph's arms*
Joseph: *guilt trip*
Oh noes!! </3
Leopold: But that was money you were owed, you idiot!
Joseph: I'm not going to make the state pay ME. We need to live for the state.
Wooow.
Also, all this is reminding me that I need to order a hard copy of Peham's bio so I can read it for myself.
the "I had a great role model" exchange is truly hilarious.
You communicated the hilarity to us very effectively!
Swieten: There's only one man sitting on the thrones of Europe along with me right now, and it's a woman: Maria Theresia.
MT: *snorts*
Catherine the Great: *does not exist*
Joseph: *sits in his office with the Fritz portrait in the very next scene*
Selena: I can see why you changed the quote, script, but I don't think you've thought through the implications...
Uh, wow, yeah. Catherine I can understand not existing, but ViennaJoe is *right* there, people!
Btw, when did historical Fritz write/say that? I assume it was during the 1740s?
In conclusion, thank you for this! We are so spoiled in having you. <333
Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End
Date: 2022-05-01 06:34 am (UTC)She's at best an amalgan character anyway. For example, the favored former lady in waiting who together with her husband (most definitely not Kaunitz!) hosted Leopold's wedding in Innsbruck was Sophie Baronness Schack von Schackenburg, married Enzenberg. (Monika Czernin, the author of the Joseph biography "Der Kaiser reist incognito", published a collection of MT's letters to her over thirty years.) Otoh, the lady-in-waiting the fictional Elisa Fritz is based on at the start of the show is someone else altogether, whom FS was suspected to have had a fling with. It's in any case regrettable how they wrote her in the fifth part, because until then, she was an interesting original creation. She started out as a society queen flirting with FS, and then young MT had the original idea to go to her and say, look, you can be my friend, or you can
have sex withflirt with my husband and hurt me, but not both, and I will say that I am loyal to my friends, come what may. Countess Elisa f. considered this, knew as a woman of the world that any affair with FS was bound to be over soon and would not get her much in the long run, and therefore decided to become MT's friend and advisor in how to win over/manage the nobility instead. She remained MT's loyal friend through all the series until the fifth part where she lets fictionalized Kaunitz talk her into the shady paper money scheme and then into an intrigue to make trouble between MT and FS so that both of them are recalled from Innsbruck with just a token protest, and then after FS' heart attack disappears from the show.As to why they called her Elisa von Fritz, God knows. It's not even a likely sounding name.
FS (when they're alone): Look, I think the affair is a disaster, too, but you want to be a grandmother, don't you? Anything that helps Isabella getting in the mood...
Wow.
If you want to be generous, you can see series!FS is clearly a believer into the "multiple orgasms make a woman more fertile" theory which was actually a thing for centuries. But I suspect it's just that the series writers, having introduced him as the most tolerant and open minded person of the ensemble, not just when it's his own sex life at stake, don't want to make him look like a hypocrite to modern viewers.
Btw, when did historical Fritz write/say that? I assume it was during the 1740s?
As far as I recall, though with our luck, it may be one of those apocryphal sayings attributed to him later in various biographies.