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cahnIn the previous post Charles II found AITA:
Look, I, m, believe in live and let live. (And in not going on my travels again. Had enough of that to last a life time.) Why can't everyone else around me be more chill? Instead, my wife refuses to employ my girlfriend, my girlfriend won't budge and accept another office, my brother is set on a course to piss off everyone (he WILL go on his travels again), and my oldest kid shows signs of wanting my job which is just not on, sorry to say. And don't get me started about Mom (thank God she's living abroad). What am I doing wrong? AITA?
Look, I, m, believe in live and let live. (And in not going on my travels again. Had enough of that to last a life time.) Why can't everyone else around me be more chill? Instead, my wife refuses to employ my girlfriend, my girlfriend won't budge and accept another office, my brother is set on a course to piss off everyone (he WILL go on his travels again), and my oldest kid shows signs of wanting my job which is just not on, sorry to say. And don't get me started about Mom (thank God she's living abroad). What am I doing wrong? AITA?
collected replies from the last post
Date: 2022-02-24 05:50 pm (UTC)...This is putting Tiny Terror FW throwing a chamberlain out the window into the shade!
Tiny Terror FW was a hands-on guy who didn't need no stinking weapons! What's up with all the guns, bow and arrow and knife stuff, Karl Emil? And if Fritz ever did hear about the family legend, it might indeed have induced him to see Ferdinand in that vein if my head canon is true. However, given Karl Emil died so young, I doubt it. I mean, FW himself was born years later, he never knew any of his uncles except for the Schwedt half uncles, who were more his own generation, and I doubt F1 when talking about his beloved dead brother mentioned he used to be a Tiny Terror as a kid.
Dorothea being married for twelve years without a child in her first marriage, then producing lots of kids iwth the Elector:
Huh! Do we know if her husband had fathered any other children, legitimate or illegitimate?
He did not, and if he had, history might have gone very different, for her first husband was, drumroll, Christian Ludwig, whose younger brothers included Georg Wilhelm (of Celle) and Ernst August (of Hannover, husband of Sophie).
Émilie did not cross dress (except in my Rossini opera fiction), as far as I know.
Bedfellows: In fairness, sharing a bed with someone of the same sex in the 17th century for royals really wasn't, by itself, erotically connotated. Remember, these people never slept alone. Especially when young. In addition to the valet (or maid) in the same room or just behind the door, you also had governors/ governesses or stewards sharing the beds of young royals. Sharing a bed with a lady-in-waiting - especially in a country where it's cold - does not have necessarily to signify anything beyond that lady being a trusted and favored member of the royal household. HOWEVER, in the specific case of Christina and Ebba Sparre, you have this and the emo letters and her (Ebba) being married by her family and then later, the one time where Christina comes back to Sweden, not allowed to meet her, and it definitely looks like people in insisting they were just gal pals and couldn't have been anything else are stretching things.
Christina and the hot Cardinal Azzolino:
<3 I... kind of like the idea of them being platonic life partners, although I suppose that's less likely than not.
For what it's worth: In a letter on 26 January 1676 to Azzolino Christina writes (in French) that she would never offend God or give Azzolino reason to take offense, but this "does not prevent me from loving you until death, and since piety relieves you from being my lover, then I relieve you from being my servant, for I shall live and die as your slave."
Christina's mother:
Wow, this was amazingly close to the way Juana was accused of being mad.
What I thought. So the question is, did Maria Eleonora take Juana as her role model, or did Oxtierna take Juana's father Ferdinand as his role model in how to freeze out a Queen you don't want anywhere near power, or was it sheer coincidence?
All the executing and none of the governing responsibilities, I see! Someone wants to have her throne and abdicate it too.
No kiddng. (In addition to Poland, she also at one point offered herself as a candidate for the throne of Naples.) And the execution episode really had everyone going WTF? To quote wiki:
On 15 October 1657 apartments were assigned to her at the Palace of Fontainebleau, where she committed an action that stained her memory: the execution of marchese Gian Rinaldo Monaldeschi, her master of the horse and formerly leader of the French party in Rome. For two months she had suspected Monaldeschi of disloyalty; she secretly seized his correspondence, which revealed that he had betrayed her interests. Christina gave three packages of letters to Le Bel, a priest, to keep them for her in custody. Three days later, at one o'clock on Saturday afternoon, she summoned Monaldeschi into the Galerie des Cerfs, discussing the matter and letters with him. He insisted that betrayal should be punished with death. She was convinced that he had pronounced his own death sentence. After an hour or so Le Bel was to receive his confession. Both Le Bel and Monaldeschi entreated for mercy, but he was stabbed by her domestics – notably Ludovico Santinelli – in his stomach and in his neck. Wearing his coat of mail, which protected him, he was chased around in an adjacent room before they finally succeeded in dealing him a fatal wound in his throat. "In the end, he died, confessing his infamy and admitting [Santinelli's] innocence, protesting that he had invented the whole fantastic story in order to ruin [him]." Father Le Bel was told to have him buried inside the church, and Christina, seemingly unfazed, paid an abbey to say a number of Masses for his soul. She "was sorry that she had been forced to undertake this execution, but claimed that justice had been carried out for his crime and betrayal.
Mazarin, who had sent her old friend Chanut, advised Christina to place the blame due to a brawl among courtiers, but she insisted that she alone was responsible for the act.
The other two women buried in the Grotte Vaticane are Matilda of Tuscany, one of the most remarkable and powerful ladies of the Middle Ages who certainly saved Pope Gregory's butt more than once in his clashes with Emperor Henry IV (she also was the one who brokered the Canossa meeting), and, wait for it... Maria Clementina Sobieska, mother of Bonnie Prince Charlie. What she did to deserve the honor is somewhat beyond me, though.
Struensee: all the talk about Christina made me type "Sweden" when I meant "Denmark" - Struensee was reforming Denmark and executed for his trouble, not Sweden.
The Chevalier Balde is also interesting, thank you! Especially her treating him as a madman as an act of mercy, in a way.
If you recall how the guy who tried to knife Louis XV was executed just four years later (drawn and quartered, with additional torture like hot iron dropping into orifices), definitely an act of mercy.
thus explaining why I'm not really into Fritz/Suhm
Well, me neither, but then again there's also an age gap of a similar size between Fritz and Voltaire. :) (In fact, I haven't looked it up, so I'm just guessing, but from what I recall Voltaire was only four years younger or thereabouts than FW and thus definitely could have been Fritz' father, in terms of age gap.) I mean, aside from the very different emotions involved, there is of course the difference that Fritz and Voltaire did not meet until Fritz was very much an adult, and Suhm knew Fritz as a teen.
Joan dying on the battle field is a fix it when compared to burning alive, but NOT FOR LOVE!
Re: collected replies from the last post
Date: 2022-02-25 01:43 am (UTC)HAHAHAHA. :D
However, given Karl Emil died so young, I doubt it.
Oh, I agree. I was saying it reminds *us* of your Ferdinand headcanon. What I think is that maybe Fritz heard all the stories about how Karl Emil was the greatest, and that that influenced him to suggest it as a name. I don't think he heard anything about bows and arrows. :P
He did not
Okay, so probably sterile, which is why she was able to be more prolific in her next marriage.
for her first husband was, drumroll, Christian Ludwig, whose younger brothers included Georg Wilhelm (of Celle) and Ernst August (of Hannover, husband of Sophie).
Aaahh!
Émilie did not cross dress (except in my Rossini opera fiction), as far as I know.
Same, but given her alleged dueling with a sword, it's a possibility!
If so, we know she *also* liked dressing up in fancy feminine clothes, so she can join that club.
Bedfellows: In fairness, sharing a bed with someone of the same sex in the 17th century for royals really wasn't, by itself, erotically connotated.
Or even apparently in the American South for aristocratic ladies, in the 1860s or 1930s or both, judging by Gone with the Wind, where all the young ladies pile up on the beds for a midday nap, and nobody suggests it's a lesbian orgy. :P
Sharing a bed with a lady-in-waiting - especially in a country where it's cold
Which is exactly why I had female Marwitz warming Wilhelmine's bed in the non-sexy sense in one of my fics!
So the question is, did Maria Eleonora take Juana as her role model, or did Oxtierna take Juana's father Ferdinand as his role model in how to freeze out a Queen you don't want anywhere near power, or was it sheer coincidence?
I have no idea, but it's a really fascinating question! Considering what happened to Juana, I have to assume door number 2 is more likely than door number 1, but could be a coincidence too.
wait for it... Maria Clementina Sobieska, mother of Bonnie Prince Charlie.
Ah, I should have remembered that! But she never invaded anywhere, so I know less about her than about her husband and older son. (I wasn't in a fandom with you to flesh out my battle maps with family dynamics. :) )
Struensee: all the talk about Christina made me type "Sweden" when I meant "Denmark" - Struensee was reforming Denmark and executed for his trouble, not Sweden.
I had Charles XII conquering Sweden instead of Saxony in one of my posts (that reminds me, I need to find that in Rheinsberg and fix it), as noted in a recent email to you and Cahn. :D
If you recall how the guy who tried to knife Louis XV was executed just four years later (drawn and quartered, with additional torture like hot iron dropping into orifices), definitely an act of mercy.
I was thinking of Damiens when you said that FW's Berlin wouldn't have been as forgiving of an assassination attempt as MT's Vienna! Not Louis XV's Paris, either!
The prisoner was placed, around five o’clock, on a scaffold eight and a half feet square. They tied him with heavy cords held by iron rings which immobilised his arms and his thighs. They started by burning his hand in a brazier filled with burning sulphur. Then they took red-hot pincers and tore at his flesh on his arms, his thighs and his chest. They poured molten lead and pitch and boiling oil on all his wounds. These tortures dragged from him the most frightful screams.
Four vigorous horses, whipped on by four executioners’ assistants, pulled with cords on the bleeding and flaming wounds of the patient; these pullings lasted an hour. His limbs stretched but did not part. The executioners finally cut some muscles. His limbs parted one after the other. Damiens, having lost two legs and an arm, was still breathing, and did not expire until his other arm was separated from his bleeding trunk. The limbs and the trunk were thrown on a pyre ten feet from the scaffold.
Remember: "The individual being tortured is Robert-François Damiens, an evidently mentally ill man who tried to assassinate Louis XV with a pocketknife, but only gave him a scratch."
thus explaining why I'm not really into Fritz/Suhm
Well, me neither, but then again there's also an age gap of a similar size between Fritz and Voltaire... and Suhm knew Fritz as a teen.
Ha. This is another example where a dynamic is enough for me to ship people even if I'm not particularly interested in Suhm as an individual. He scratches a very specific itch for me, which involves an age gap combined with a praise kink.
And while I certainly hope nothing inappropriate happened when Fritz was a child or teen, the earliest emo letters we have between them are when Fritz is 24, so plenty old enough to consent. And FWIW, my headcanon for them is the praise-kink and hand-kissing dynamic of the early Voltaire days, without the later saltiness. Not sexy times.
I realize it's not for everyone! But this has been an iddy thing for me for so long that the moment Suhm came along, he fell into that same pre-formed slot with others of his ilk and got insta-shipped. :DDD
Joan dying on the battle field is a fix it when compared to burning alive, but NOT FOR LOVE!
I think we can all agree on that!
Various replies
Date: 2022-02-26 08:45 pm (UTC)1)
2)
Re: loyalty kink, that can definitely appeal to me! And I am quite fond of the comrades in arms vibe, which has love and duty aligned.
Re: military history, I enjoy this blog, which has a wide range of military history stuff along with other interesting history. for example, there was a recent series on the history of fortifications.
I guess what I’ve found interesting when reading about the military history of the '45 is trying to understand how the outcome is influenced by various factors: weaponry, logistics, money, allies, training, supply, the tactical and strategic decisions made by various people, intelligence, propaganda, prior social networks before the war, etc etc.
3)
The Road Not Taken - Frank McLynn
Date: 2022-02-27 07:46 pm (UTC)Sorry again for the poor spelling etc, since I'm dictating to spare my hands.
there's nothing new for me about the actual course of the war, but I learned two new things about the economics of the period which I'm really surprised I haven't come across elsewhere. Why has no one said this before? the first is that the anti Catholic feeling in Britain had (among other things) an economic basis. The so called Abbey lands were taken from the Catholic Church, and the owners of that land were afraid that if the country became Catholic again, then these lands would be taken from them, Even in the 18th century. This was a third of britain’s land! Of course it had changed hands a lot of times since then, and now often belonged to various members of the aristocracy. the jacobites from James II onwards never intended to give that land back to the Catholic Church, but it was used as a Whig scare tactic against them.
So the second thing I learned is about the importance of britain's national debt. Apparently William of orange needed a lot of money for his wars, and the monarchs after that borrowed too. There was a whole system of financial capitalism set in place after 1688, like the Bank of England and the South sea company. The Whigs were very worried that if James II or BPC ended up on the throne, they would repudiate the national debt since it had been pledged by illegitimate monarchs (from the jacobite POV). obviously the debt holders were rich and powerful people, allied with the Whigs or Whig politicians themselves. this is the primary reason for the stock market crashes connected with jacobite attempts. And unlike the situation with the Abbey lands, James III or BPC might very well have done that. Many of James III’s advisors apparently counseled him to do so. BPC equivocated in 1745, and it's unclear what he would have done if he had won. Obviously it would have been good for state finances, but bad for (relations with) the debt holders including the Dutch. it would also have allowed James III/BPC to lower the high taxes, which was a major jacobite criticism of the whigs, and conciliate the people on which the taxes fell.
McLynn agrees with Szechi about the increasing radicalism of jacobite politics and how far it had come from the divine right of James II.
Re: The Road Not Taken - Frank McLynn
Date: 2022-02-28 12:41 am (UTC)McLynn is the author of what seems to be the definitive biography of BPC.
I definitely read this at least once, but I wasn't critically assessing different authors in those days (mostly just getting outraged if I found mistakes or "mistakes"), so I can't tell you what I thought of it, alas.
Re: collected replies from the last post
Date: 2022-02-28 05:27 am (UTC)Aww. I platonically-ship it! :D
Well, me neither, but then again there's also an age gap of a similar size between Fritz and Voltaire. :)
Heeeee, true! I feel like Fritz/Voltaire is a special case because I kiiiiind of don't take them seriously as a ship and that's actually what attracts me about it? Like, they are just so over-the-top and I think they're hilarious and cute but also not a real canon ship but also Voltaire wrote a whole fanfic epistolary novel with super gay tropes. Like. What do you even do with these guys?? Even though age gap is usually really not my thing, here I'm kind of like, wow, age gap is the least of their worries!
Joan dying on the battle field is a fix it when compared to burning alive, but NOT FOR LOVE!
PREACH IT.
Re: collected replies from the last post
Date: 2022-02-28 05:31 am (UTC)I thought of the duel thing! I'm not convinced that the dueling is actually attested (do we have anything resembling proof?) but presumably if it did happen she would have been wearing some kind of men's clothing -- but there being a rumor about it maybe means that it's not totally unlikely?
(whoops, hit button too soon) and did not expire until his other arm was separated from his bleeding trunk.
AGH!
Re: Various replies
Date: 2022-02-28 05:39 am (UTC)Re: The Road Not Taken - Frank McLynn
Date: 2022-02-28 05:54 am (UTC)Re: collected replies from the last post
Date: 2022-02-28 11:11 am (UTC)Meaning: of course it was way more comfortable to duel in male clothing, but it wasn't impossible to duel in female clothing in the 18th century!
Re: collected replies from the last post
Date: 2022-02-28 11:24 am (UTC)Not to mention that we all agreed ages ago that since neither of them would ever shut up, the most sexual thing that could ever have happened even under the best of circumstances would have been a hand job. :) (More seriously, I'm with Mildred in that I think hand kissing and mutual praise-plus-insult was it for them.
I kiiiiind of don't take them seriously as a ship
Whereas the same editor Richter who insists that Fritz loved three-years-older Fredersdorf as a father loved his son grudgingly declares Fritz/Voltaire to have been "an intellectual love affair" ("eine intellektuelle Liebesbeziehung"), though with Fritz as the woobie who did all the suffering in said intellectual romance and Voltaire as the heartless slut breaking our hero's heart. ("Begleiten wir den König eine Weile auf seinem Leidensweg.")
I think one reason why the age gap basically isn't a factor for Fritz/Voltaire, in addition to them not meeting in person until Fritz is nearly 30, is what appeals to me about this craziest of Frederician ships in general - they come across as equals in all regards (despite Fritz having all the social power, but that's only a factor in the pamphlet burning and Frankfurt arrest, not for the rest of their lives). Voltaire isn't more mature emotionally (is he ever). And I think Fritz means it when in one of the post 7 Years letters he writers "you're younger than me", referring to Voltaire's energy and unbroken ability to tackle new things and be creative. Voltaire might have complained he was at death's door from childhood onwards, but he truly had a remarkable life force, and Fritz was emotionally and physically exhausted after the 7 Years War in a way that had rapidly aged him in his own perception and others. Also, while Voltaire didn't have armies at his disposal, he did have words, and did he ever how to use them damagingly if he wanted so. So: equals, years of birth not withstanding.
Re: collected replies from the last post
Date: 2022-02-28 02:14 pm (UTC)Re: collected replies from the last post
Date: 2022-03-04 06:36 am (UTC)HAHAHAHAHAHA
what appeals to me about this craziest of Frederician ships in general - they come across as equals in all regards
Yes! That's so true -- what squicks me out about age gaps is the power differential, and that just super isn't a factor in this ship. (I imagine this is also why I tend to very much prefer my loyalty relationships as platonic or UST rather than as a straight ship -- though in this case, loyalty relationships are so my jam that I'm willing to put up with the power differential in the ship if I have to. But they never really are my OTP, whereas the platonic or UST-y versions are often my favorites.)
Catherine and Voltaire
Date: 2022-03-04 06:42 am (UTC)However! Before I stopped reading, I did read the chapter about Voltaire and Catherine and that was hilarious, and I've been meaning to talk a little about that.
[Voltaire was] already a millionaire from his writing
You know, this made me realize that I actually don't know how much he made from his writing, but I was certainly under the impression from Orieux that his millions came mostly from financial
shadinessdealings more than best-selling authorship.At the age of eighty, [Voltaire] rose early on a May morning and climbed a hill with a friend to see the sunrise. At the top, overwhelmed by the magnificent panorama of red and gold, he kneeled and said, "Oh mighty God, I believe." Then, standing up, he said to his friend, "As to Monsieur the son and Madame his mother, that is another matter!"
I find this story really endearing <3
On Calas: eventually, Jean Calas was posthumously exonerated and his reputation rehabilitated.
But! But! You totally buried the lede there (if maybe not so much as with Fritz)!
On Mme Denis: Voltaire's relationsihp with Mme Denis was straightforward. He concealed nothing; she was his mistress; he called her "my beloved."
Ummmmm idk those Pamela letters are reeeeally written in such a way to emphasize the "niece" part of it and not so much the "mistress" part of it. I'm just saying. (There is no Emilie, which makes sense as this is all after Emilie died, but :( )
That's all in the Voltaire background. Now onto his relationship with Catherine (though Massie doesn't say anything about the Turks or about war chariots, as far as I can tell):
He addressed her as "the Semiramis of the North"
I know I've seen the "Semiramis" bit in salon before, but really? If so, I'm dying :D Fritz isn't the only one to be thrifty!
After Diderot visits Catherine, apparently Voltaire sends her a letter (dated August 9, 1774) that goes like this:
Madame:
I am positively in disgrace at your court. Your Imperial Majesty has jilted me for Diderot, or for Grimm, or for some other favorite. .. I am trying to find crimes I have committed that would justify your indifference. I see that indeed there is no passion that does not end. This thought would cause me to die of chagrin, were I not already so near to dying of old age.
I am dying, you guys. VOLTAIRE.
This letter, alas, isn't on fr.wikisource.org (it's later than what they have) but I did a bit of digging and found it here.
... oh wow, google translate is giving me this other great bit in the part that Massie glossed:
I also accuse myself of having bored you by means of a Frenchman whose name I have forgotten, who boasted of running to Petersburg to be useful to your Majesty and who was doubtless very useless.
(I assume he's talking about Diderot here?? Despite having name-checked him earlier in the letter??)
Re: The Road Not Taken - Frank McLynn
Date: 2022-03-04 06:29 pm (UTC)Re: Catherine and Voltaire
Date: 2022-03-04 06:45 pm (UTC)I hear and understand you. If it helps: Catherine, I think, would consider the current one a very unworthy Czar, not because she'd object to him wanting Ukraine, of course, but because of the economy-wrecking and the alliances-burning. Say what you want about Catherine, but she was careful not to leave Russia without allies (and I don't mean vassals like Belarus) and set against most of the world. But yeah, best take a break from the Massie for a while (how far did you get with Peter, btw?) and switch to Zweig.
I was certainly under the impression from Orieux that his millions came mostly from financial
shadinessdealings more than best-selling authorship.That would be the right impression. (If you look up my Orieux write-up at
(Sidenote: otoh, where you could make some money as an author were in the theatre through plays, provided your plays were successful. Because if your plays were hits, and you were a good bargainer, you could have arranged with the theatre in question to get a cut of the cash. That still wasn't money on a Voltaire level - for example, Beaumarchais' plays were doing very well, but he got his main income through his clock making and army supplying.)
I find this story really endearing <3
:) I hadn't heard it before, but it is, and very Voltaire.
But! But! You totally buried the lede there
He did. Mentioning the Calas affair without explaining what a big deal the postumous exonoration was is a bit like summing up "Rosa Parks got thrown out of a bus that time, but eventually, she was able to sit in busses wherevery she wanted".
Madame Denis: "Voltaire concealed nothing"? Rubbish. He concealed it so well that most people didn't catch on and all the 20th century biographies of Voltaire until the 1950s have him as swearing of sex altogether when he stopped having it with Émilie. I mean, you can say he was open about it in his letters to Madame Denis (that weren't the Pamela letters which he had doctored with an eye for posterity reading them), but, for example, I didn't have the impression Fritz ever realised. (You just know that if he had, he'd have brought it up when going on a "Voltaire is the worst!" outburst at some point.) Casanova and Boswell, both of whom loved spicy gossip, don't mention anything about it in their respective write-ups of meeting Voltaire AND Madame Denis. (And Casanova even had a brief fling with her at one point because of course he did.)
As we've discussed, Voltaire presumably was very aware that while uncle/niece was okay with you were a Habsburg or a Hohenzollern and married your niece, for normal citizens (and without a marriage) it was a criminal offense, and he had enough trouble with the law as it was. I seem to recall he once did ask a friend of his discreetly about how one might one go about such a marriage, but he certainly didn't say "btw, I'm thinking about me/Marie-Louise here".
Semiramis of the North - not only was Catherine called that by people other than Voltaire as well as him, Christina of Sweden had been called the same a century earlier. (Also "Minerva of the North". But definitely "Semiramis".) See also "Athens of the North", which at various times was used to compliment Christina for Stockholm, Sophie Charlotte for Berlin and Fritz for Berlin again. There are some obvious comparisons and phrases for literati to use with female monarchs encouraging the arts.
(There are also some obvious insults. See Lehndorff applying MESSALINA to several royal ladies!)
OMG, the Voltaire quotes are golden. The second one does sound like he means Diderot, though then again Catherine was trying to get as many literati and artists as she could, and I don't think Diderot was the only Frenchman of Voltaire's aquaintance to make it to St. Petersburg?
Re: Catherine and Voltaire
Date: 2022-03-05 12:13 am (UTC)I hear and understand you.
Seconding Selena's comment. You can tell from my DW post that I immediately had some ambivalent feelings about invaders myself. (Just because you're my historical fave doesn't mean I could like you if you were alive!)
This is why I went to all the trouble of world-building a universe where this kind of thing is ethical!
the economy-wrecking and the alliances-burning. Say what you want about Catherine, but she was careful not to leave Russia without allies
Whereas my fave... :P
So if Massie thinks Voltaire's money came from his writings, he clearly doesn't know much about a) Voltaire and b) the author business in the 18th century.
Which is why I warned you all about Massie's accuracy! Or rather lack thereof. His strength is preparing you to read drier and more accurate treatments of his subject.
Ummmmm idk those Pamela letters are reeeeally written in such a way to emphasize the "niece" part of it and not so much the "mistress" part of it.
Yeah, like Selena said, he concealed it from other people. His letters to her--the genuine ones, not the ones written for publication like Pamela--though, were full of cunts and penises and breasts. She tried to bowdlerize them for selling to make money, then apparently gave up because there was TOO MUCH. :P
As we've discussed, Voltaire presumably was very aware that while uncle/niece was okay with you were a Habsburg or a Hohenzollern and married your niece, for normal citizens (and without a marriage) it was a criminal offense
I was reminded of him in my recent German reading in which I encountered another uncle/niece marriage: Acton, the naval commander and later prime minister in Naples during the Ferdinand - Maria Carolina - Hamilton - Emma - Nelson days. To quote from Wikipedia:
On 2 February 1800, at the age of 63, he married his 13 year-old niece Mary Ann Acton, the eldest daughter of his younger brother General Joseph Edward Acton (1737-1830). The marriage appears to have been made for dynastic purposes to keep control of the family's wealth and required papal dispensation due to consanguinity. On hearing the news Nelson commented "it is never too late to do well" and following his arrival in Naples threw a party for the newlyweds aboard his flagship.
63 and 13 is definitely waaaay skeevier than Ferdinand and his wife/niece. To the point where I hope it *was* dynastic, but still not cool either way.
See also "Athens of the North", which at various times was used to compliment Christina for Stockholm, Sophie Charlotte for Berlin and Fritz for Berlin again.
And Solomon of the North for Fritz. One of the most hilarious things Voltaire ever wrote, imo, was, "As Solomon said--the other Solomon, the one not from the North," which makes me collapse into giggling whenever I remember it. :D
The second one does sound like he means Diderot, though then again Catherine was trying to get as many literati and artists as she could, and I don't think Diderot was the only Frenchman of Voltaire's aquaintance to make it to St. Petersburg?
I too guess Diderot, but Grimm comes to mind as another qualifying Frenchman, and I see that he's also name-checked in this letter. Remember this passage from one of the books I was reading:
As his homesickness deepened, Diderot had begun to make plans for his return to Paris. Determined to make the trip with Grimm, he was no less determined to avoid a layover in Berlin. Torn by his devotion to Diderot and his debt to Frederick, Grimm’s predicament seemed without issue. “I am more than a bit embarrassed over Denis’s intentions,” he confided to Nesselrode at year’s end. “As you can imagine, the last thing in the world I want is to cancel Berlin, but the last thing Denis wants is to place his foot there.”
And my summary: "Grimm and Diderot ended up traveling separately, so they could respectively go to, and avoid the hell out of, Berlin."
Re: Catherine and Voltaire
Date: 2022-03-05 03:06 am (UTC)63 and 13 is incredibly skeevy, no matter the motive. Suddenly, the Judge‘s intentions re: Johanna in „Sweeney Todd“ look like hardcore realism. Btw, the guy -Karl Thedor - who was married to the erotic letters writing Elisabeth Augusta and who couldn‘t trade Bavaria for Belgium to Joseph because everyone else among the German princes was WTF? About it and started to root for protector-against-invasions Fritz, married again after her death since they didn‘t have a surviving son. He married a teenage Habsburg. Who retaliated against her family for marrying her off to a 70 years old (she was 17, I think, which is at least well past puberty) by successfully refusing to have sex with him till he died, so Bavaria went to another branch of the Wittelsbachs who were profoundly grateful. In Nymphenburg, the text that goes with her portrait says „heroine of Bavarian independence“ since otherwise Bavaria would have ended up swallowed by Austria after all.
Re: Catherine and Voltaire
Date: 2022-03-05 03:26 am (UTC)Fair! I just think of him as the French culture correspondent guy, but yes, you're right about how Voltaire would see it. So yeah, it's got to be Diderot even if there are other qualifying Frenchmen hanging out with Catherine.
Who retaliated against her family for marrying her off to a 70 years old (she was 17, I think, which is at least well past puberty) by successfully refusing to have sex with him till he died
Ha! Good for her.
I forgot to mention that this Acton is the grandfather of "absolute power corrupts" Lord Acton, and the brother of Harold Acton's ancestor. Harold Acton being the author of the Last of the Medici, and a friend of Norman Douglas, who was no stranger to age-skeevy relationships himself.
(Srsly, Fritz being 24+ and crown prince and having a strong personality negates any squickiness for me surrounding any possible power differential based on the age gap with Suhm. Especially since I don't think they had sex when he was in his 20s, much less his teens. Hand-kissing and emo letters is my ship. I am not okay with Acton and Douglas!)
Agony Aunts (and Uncles)
Date: 2022-03-06 04:29 pm (UTC)"Dear Philosophe, I am in a high stress position, have experienced various setbacks - which were in no way my fault! -, the hostility towards me on a professional and personal level is almost universal, and in short, I'm seriously wondering whether I shouldn't go out Roman Style!"
would be:
"Don't do it. Your enemies of which you have deservedly a lot would rejoice and take it as proof they were right and you were wrong. Also, I'd miss you."
Moving on to Austria: Joseph would be as horrible/well suited to the job as Fritz in that they're both know-it-alls prone to sarcasm, BUT there's canon that in one particular case, he was an A plus Agony Aunt and accomplished the mission, i.e. Marie Antoinette and Louis and their sex problem. So.... keep Joseph away from advice columns except for a sideline as Marie Antoinette's agony uncle?
Wilhelmine would think she'd do a good job but regard it as beneath her dignity. In reality, she'd be way too high handed and judgey and thus as hilaribad for it as most of her family.
Mostly good at the job yet also entertaining with canon to back this up: Sophie/Sophia of Hannover. She'd write witty advice columns galore. Not necessarily correct ones (I mean, FW/SD was partly her idea), but definitely readable.
Incredibly readable but also incredibly bitchy: Lord Hervey's Dos and Don'ts for the Enterprising Gentleman. It turns out he has several socks writing extra insulting letters.
And then there's the FW Advice Column which goes something like this:
Q: Dear Father To His Men, I've lost my oldest son who yes, fucked up, but was repentant and also the law sentenced him to prison before the sentence was overruled. My wife and other kids can't stop crying, and I keep rereading his last letter. My profession means I have to work for the overrider. Should I retire? Pietus
A: Dear Pietus, pray - always a good way to cope with distress - and while you're at it, pray for your boss, too. Just imagine how distressed HE must feel? You don't want to grieve him any more, do you? Also, no quitting. And it's not your fault your son sucked.
Re: Agony Aunts (and Uncles)
Date: 2022-03-06 10:18 pm (UTC)Oh god NOOOO loool.
FW2: Fritz is an Agony-Inducing Uncle!!
"Don't do it. Your enemies of which you have deservedly a lot would rejoice and take it as proof they were right and you were wrong. Also, I'd miss you."
Laughing out loud in real life. Never change, Fritz and Voltaire. You deserve each other (and each other's advice).
But "Philosophe" is the perfect name for his column!
Joseph would be as horrible/well suited to the job as Fritz in that they're both know-it-alls prone to sarcasm, BUT there's canon that in one particular case, he was an A plus Agony Aunt and accomplished the mission
Too true. But Fritz wishes to protest:
Fritz: I knew Cocceji was no damn good for Barbarina! And I told the Swedes they'd regret Ulrike, and what did she do but try to stage a coup on them? For that matter, did Heinrich/Marwitz last? It did not. All this proves is that people who don't take my advice live to regret it!
(He probably did have an STD, too. Fritz is an expert in STDs!)
Wilhelmine would think she'd do a good job but regard it as beneath her dignity. In reality, she'd be way too high handed and judgey and thus as hilaribad for it as most of her family.
SO TRUE. Oh, Wilhelmine.
Incredibly readable but also incredibly bitchy: Lord Hervey's Dos and Don'ts for the Enterprising Gentleman. It turns out he has several socks writing extra insulting letters.
This is all very true! I love the title of his column, too!
FW: Oh, god. I wanted to laugh and cry at the same time. "Pray for your boss"--I died. FW!!
These are all so great, I'm still laughing!
Re: Agony Aunts (and Uncles)
Date: 2022-03-08 11:49 am (UTC)Fritz could add he also correctly judged Schmeling/Mara, and for that matter, Heinrich/Mara, as well as Heinrich/Kaphengst - well, Heinrich/anyone in Fritz' lifetime, with one glaring exception, the Heinrich match he had personally arranged, i.e. Heinrich/Mina*. ("Women will do him good", anyone? He did write that to Wilhelmine.)
FW2: Agony-Inducing Uncle Fritz also arranged both my marriages.
Fritz: But I never said they would do you good. That was never the point.
*Fritz would undoubtedly point out that Heinrich chose Mina himself from the (tiny) set of princesses he could choose from after being told to marry. But the fact remains Mina is the one Heinrich partner Fritz was positively enthusiastic about ("We can congratulate ourselves to this acquisition" - again to Wilhelmine), and would not allow Heinrich to leave, as opposed to the various boyfriends.
Émilie fandom exhibit
Date: 2022-03-08 12:12 pm (UTC)Re: Émilie fandom exhibit
Date: 2022-03-08 11:19 pm (UTC)one of our main Munich museums
Alte Pinakothek? Or another one?
Re: Agony Aunts (and Uncles)
Date: 2022-03-08 11:27 pm (UTC)(Of course, in no universe do I believe that Fritz would have approved of a good marriage for Schmeling or Barbarina and only objected on the grounds that their intendeds were good-for-nothings.)
FW2: Agony-Inducing Uncle Fritz also arranged both my marriages.
Fritz: But I never said they would do you good. That was never the point.
HAHAHAHA