cahn

In the previous post Charles II found AITA:

Look, I, m, believe in live and let live. (And in not going on my travels again. Had enough of that to last a life time.) Why can't everyone else around me be more chill? Instead, my wife refuses to employ my girlfriend, my girlfriend won't budge and accept another office, my brother is set on a course to piss off everyone (he WILL go on his travels again), and my oldest kid shows signs of wanting my job which is just not on, sorry to say. And don't get me started about Mom (thank God she's living abroad). What am I doing wrong? AITA?

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From:

cahn

Nice town palaces and wardrobe and jewelry etc. for mistresses are completely different.

Totally different! ;)

Presumably Louis XIII is the only Bourbon king up to that point who doesn't feel Louis XVI let down the side with this in the hereafter...

More about Louis XIII? I read wikipedia and it said he might be gay? How much should I trust wikipedia?

Edited Date: 2022-05-05 05:06 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

My own impression, based on a great many Richelieu biographies though no Louis XIII biographies that I've read, was that he most likely was gay, but unlike his younger son Philippe did not have sex with any of his male favourites. (He only had one female favourite in between the guys, and that relationship does not come across as passionate compared to the others.) Louis XIII in general has a repressed, unhappy aura. It should be said, though, that after his father died, he was an unhappy child. As mentioned previously a couple of times, his mother very much prefered his younger brother Gaston, and Louis loathed his mother's favourite and likely lover Concini, the marshal of Ancre. When Louis was a teenager, his falconer, de Luynes, and first own favourite was instrumental in organizing the overthrow of Concini and Maria de' Medici's regency. By that time Concinci was so spectactularly hated among the general population that he was literally torn to shreds by the people. Someone who watched this and never forgot it was young Armand du Plessis, bishop of Lucon. He had impressed the Queen Regent at the General Assembly after Henri IV's death, remember, and being young and ambitious had risen in her favor, which made her son Louis automatically dislike him. This meant Armand and his family got banished to Avignon for a while after Concini's fall, but then Armand (still not Richelieu) approached de Luynes with the suggestion that he could mediate between the exiled Queen Mother and her son, which Louis accepted. The reconciliation accomplished, he was called back, married his oldest niece to Luyne's nephew and showed his administrative skills so that even when Luynes died and the next (male) favourite was installed, Armand got to be de facto PM and was made a Cardinal (now he's Richeieu!) when France got its hand on a Cardinal's hat again. There was just one big problem. Maria de' Medici, understandably, thought he owed her and that he should represent her policies. Otoh, the conclusion that Richelieu had drawn from Concini's ending was that he needed to build and prioritize his connection to Louis above all else, and also his policies and Maria de' Medici's policies completely diverged by now. Richelieu was concinved France had a shot at displacing Spain as the dominant Catholic power in Europe, whereas Maria was pro Habsburg. This all led to a showdown at the so called "Day of Dupes" where Maria de' Medici gave her son a "Richelieu or me!" ultimatum, and thought she'd won. So did a lot of courtiers who promptly showed their hostility against Richelieu. Except that as it turned out, the Cardinal had won, Louis picked him. Cue again and forever exiled Queen Mother and a lot of scrambling courtiers.

The Louis XIII & Richelieu relationship was really interesting in that it did not fall into any obvious tropes. Louis had started out disliking not-yet-Richelieu, and he was won over by the sheer competence. Otoh, he was very aware people said Richelieu was the true King and resented that. They were fifteen years apart, which isn't quite enough for a father/son relationship, but ensured they weren't really of the same generation, either, though Louis at times confided in Richelieu about very personal stuff, too. In the last years of their lives, the Cinq Mars affair happened, which was a tragedy on various levels. Cinq Mars, young, pretty, none too bright, son of one of Richelieu's (dead) loyal lieutenants, was introduced to Louis by Richelieu as a seemingly safe option for "latest favourite". Only then it turned out Cinq Mars had a massive ego. He even quarrelled with the King (Richelieu had to reconcile them, we have the letters). Then he wanted to marry one of Louis' rich cousins, which would have meant he'd become a part of the royal family, at which point Richelieu heard the alarm bells ringing and said no. This made Cinq Mars turn against him. Richelieu always had a surplus of enemies, with whom Cinq Mars now teamed up, promising his co-conspirators he could get Louis' approval for an assassination of Richelieu the way teenage Louis had greenlighted the disposal of Concini all those years ago. He didn't quite succeed, but what he got was a lame no. Louis said "He's a Cardinal, I'd be excommunicated", whereupon de Treville, the boss of the Musketeers, said it would be his honor to go to Rome and get a papal forgiveness for the King. Louis didn't say anything anymore, which could have been a silent okay. Or not. We'll never know.

However, Richelieu still had the better spies. Once he'd learned of the plan, and learned that Cinq Mars (which he hadn't told Louis) had approached the Spaniards (offering to make peace after Richelieu's death), which given that France was at war with Spain was treason, and presented all the proof against Cinq Mars, Louis had no choice but to sign Cinq Mars' death sentence instead. (By executioner, not assassination.) And he did make Louis sign that warrant in person. (Presumably he didn't feel too warmly about the King right then once he'd learned Louis' defense of him had amounted to "he's a Cardinal, I'd be excommunicated", this after decades of working for the guy). The lethal irony as that both Richelieu and Louis were already very sick at that point. They only lived for another year or so after Cinq Mars' execution, Louis outliving Richelieu by only six months or so. Richelieu did get Louis to promise that after the Cardinal's death, Richelieu's protegé Mazarin would succeed him as de facto PM (the title didn't exist yet, but that's what the job amounted to), and Louis did keep that promise. (Richelieu: one of the very few men of power not afraid to find and train a gifted successor to take their place, which meant that after his death, the system they'd built around them didn't collapse. Looking at you, Bismarck, who didn't do that because ego. Or you, Fritz.)

In between Luynes and Cinq Mars, there were a couple of other male and one female favourite for Louis XIII, but as opposed to either of his sons, gossip didn't think he actually had sex with them, which is why I think he'd be the one Bourbon sympathizing with Louis XVI!

From:

cahn

Eeee, thank you! :D I actually forgot that I had asked you about Louis because your writeup of Richelieu was so fascinating. Okay, I am sold on Richelieu, and also Richelieu & Louis XIII; is there a readable biography you'd recommend?

Someone who watched this and never forgot it was young Armand du Plessis, bishop of Lucon

Oh wow. This whole story is just fascinating and I'm just imagining Armand/Richelieu thinking of Concini the whole time.

This all led to a showdown at the so called "Day of Dupes" where Maria de' Medici gave her son a "Richelieu or me!" ultimatum, and thought she'd won. So did a lot of courtiers who promptly showed their hostility against Richelieu. Except that as it turned out, the Cardinal had won, Louis picked him. Cue again and forever exiled Queen Mother and a lot of scrambling courtiers.

! and this is epic!

Louis had started out disliking not-yet-Richelieu, and he was won over by the sheer competence. Otoh, he was very aware people said Richelieu was the true King and resented that.

...maybe this doesn't have a trope name, but I really like it! (I am just a sucker for all-out competence in any form, really.)

They were fifteen years apart, which isn't quite enough for a father/son relationship, but ensured they weren't really of the same generation, either, though Louis at times confided in Richelieu about very personal stuff, too.

...this is great. So they don't even quite fall into the uneasy friends/almost enemies trope, although it sounds like it's also time-dependent.

Louis said "He's a Cardinal, I'd be excommunicated", whereupon de Treville, the boss of the Musketeers, said it would be his honor to go to Rome and get a papal forgiveness for the King. Louis didn't say anything anymore

LOUIS

The lethal irony as that both Richelieu and Louis were already very sick at that point.

Ohhhhh, that really is lethal irony.

Richelieu: one of the very few men of power not afraid to find and train a gifted successor to take their place, which meant that after his death, the system they'd built around them didn't collapse.

Yay! I remember you'd mentioned this before (but not until you mentioned it again, thank you as usual for being patient with me!)