18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 35

[cahn]

In the previous post Charles II found AITA:

Look, I, m, believe in live and let live. (And in not going on my travels again. Had enough of that to last a life time.) Why can't everyone else around me be more chill? Instead, my wife refuses to employ my girlfriend, my girlfriend won't budge and accept another office, my brother is set on a course to piss off everyone (he WILL go on his travels again), and my oldest kid shows signs of wanting my job which is just not on, sorry to say. And don't get me started about Mom (thank God she's living abroad). What am I doing wrong? AITA?

Comments

Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End

[selenak]

Well, overall, given that Joseph kept Kaunitz as de facto PM after MT's death, and even Leopold did at first (Kaunitz: got really old, surviving both Joseph and Leopold who were a generation younger than him), he did think Kaunitz was That Good. (Kaunitz: kept the office of Chancellor for freaking' 41 years and through three very different monarchs - MT, Joseph and Leopold - until he retired.)

In detail, when Joseph was younger and MT was still alive, he shared some ideas with Kaunitz (they both wanted to reduce the influence of the Church, for example, and Kaunitz was generally on Team Enlightenment, just not at the speed Joseph wanted it to happen), but was very impatient regarding the later's ponderous ways, and there were arguments all around in various combinations among the ruling trio, with one of the three usually falling back on the offer of retirement as the last weapon. One item where it was Joseph + Kaunitz against MT was the first partitioning of Poland, which the two guys were all ready to do from the start. (Apocryphical Fritz snark not withstanding, MT really did have to be dragged into this.) OTOH, it was Kaunitz + MT against Joseph in the mess that was the War of the Bavarian Succession.

re: Kaunitz as a Diplomat - his big coups in that capacity were, in addition to the Diplomatic Revolution (which he largely accomplished while Austrian Envoy in Paris): years earlier, in the first two Silesian Wars, he won the support of Victor Emmanuel III. for MT against Fritz (clearly, sending Algarotti to do this hadn't had the same effect), and he managed to get MT's youngest son Max as Coadjutator in Cologne and Münster after centuries of the Wittelsbachs having a lockhold on the job. (This was important because it meant the Habsburgs regained some influence among the Northern German princes.) His reputation for vanity was definitely deserved, but he did have the skills to back it up. It should also be said that with Kaunitz, MT and Joseph all three having powerful personalities, it's a not so minor phenomenon that they were able to work with each other, arguments and occasional "fine, be like that, I'm going to retire!" threats not withstanding, for fifteen years. Conversely, Fritz had capable people in his administration, too, but there's no example of him being able to work with someone else on that level. (Fredersdorf had a personality of his own, of course, but he was entirely dependent on Fritz, which is a different situation.) At least in peace time; Heinrich in the 7 Years War comes closest, which brings us to Beales' comparison again (that Heinrich/Fritz = Joseph/MT).

Re: Maria Theresia the TV Series: The End

[cahn]

It should also be said that with Kaunitz, MT and Joseph all three having powerful personalities, it's a not so minor phenomenon that they were able to work with each other, arguments and occasional "fine, be like that, I'm going to retire!" threats not withstanding, for fifteen years.

Yeah, that is really something, especially when one is used to Fritz :) But even aside from Fritz's example or lack thereof, I feel like you would have to be pretty strongly functional to do that with three strong personalities for that long, no matter what the context.

At least in peace time; Heinrich in the 7 Years War comes closest, which brings us to Beales' comparison again (that Heinrich/Fritz = Joseph/MT).

and there were arguments all around in various combinations among the ruling trio, with one of the three usually falling back on the offer of retirement as the last weapon.

I mean. Yeah.
Heinrich: But I actually did resign from the army! Because Fritz was that much worse.