cahn

In the previous post Charles II found AITA:

Look, I, m, believe in live and let live. (And in not going on my travels again. Had enough of that to last a life time.) Why can't everyone else around me be more chill? Instead, my wife refuses to employ my girlfriend, my girlfriend won't budge and accept another office, my brother is set on a course to piss off everyone (he WILL go on his travels again), and my oldest kid shows signs of wanting my job which is just not on, sorry to say. And don't get me started about Mom (thank God she's living abroad). What am I doing wrong? AITA?

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From:

selenak

Although the Habsburgs quote would have the same unfortunate implications, wouldn't it?

Well, yes. There's no avoiding the unfortuante implications if you're going to use a "the only man" statement, and unfortunately the other three complimentary Fritz statements re: MT aren't useable either. One because it was made after her death (the "We fought, but I was never her enemy" one to D'Alembert), and the other two were "at least she's not a whore and hates whores" (slightly paraphrased, and anyway Mildred found out that Henri de Catt altered that one in his memoirs) and, hilariously, in a written pep talk to one of his people during Silesia 2, "In Silesia 1, the Queen of Hungary didn't budge when someone invaded her homeland despite of how dangereous it looked, and now you're complaining to me?").

...okay, now I've looked up the original Fritz quote from the D'Alembert letter, and it's worth repeating: And yet, I have regretted the death of the Empress-Queen: she brought honor to her throne and sex; I have gone to war with her, but I was never her enemy. Regarding the Emperor, the son of this great woman: I know him personally; he seemed too enlightened to me to me to make overhasty steps; I esteem him and do not fear him.

The son of this great woman is also the coming menace when it suits Fritzian propaganda, of course. Back to your comments on my review.

Leopold being the one eager to pounce on prostitutes in the show in the light of Leopold later presenting Joseph as the one who can't get enough of them amused me, too. Re: Mimi/Isabella being unambigously an on screen affair: for all its inaccuracies, one thing the MT series can't be accused of is being homophobic or pretending the historical world consists of only straight peopole. Fritz never shows up on screen, but everyone describes him as gay (and gives him his father's fetish for tall guys for good measure). Prince Eugene in part 1 (who is a sympathetic and tragic character) doesn't have any on screen action due to his age, but he's also presented as a gay man. And Isabella/Mimi do have on screen action, with both written as lesbians (as opposed to Mimi as bi), presumably as not to make Mimi look less invested in Isabella than Isabella is in her.

This sounds... honestly kind of plausible

Yup. When I watched it, I thought, I could see that happening in rl as well. Sounds Josephian to me. Poor Isabella.

Joseph: Well, I had a great role model.

OH VIENNAJOE NO

I was on the floor. Mind you, until this point there had been no mention of Joseph's secret fannishness, so the audience the show is aiming for (i.e. doesn't know their 7 Years War from their 30 Years War, at best knows MT was Austrian) can't have seen it coming, but the moment he said that I knew what would follow.

Huh. He... looks much nicer in that picture :P

Well, in reality it was painted by sister Charlotte's court painter for herself; Fritz' nieces (that would be AW's daughter Wilhelmine the future Queen of Holland, Wilhelmine's daughter Friederike the Duchess of Würtemberg, and Anna Amalia the Duchess of Weimar, Charlotte's daughter, as well as her sister EC Junior the future first wife of FW2) and newly ascended to the throne G3 also got a copy each. (Whether young G3, who said apropos Fritz' letter re: no more Englislh support money that no one had ever talked to him as impudently, was thrilled is another question.) Whether it was indeed the only portrait of King (as opposed to Crown Prince, as prince he sat repeatedly for various painters) Fritz for which he actually sat is disputed these days according to the painter's wiki entry, and current theory is that the painter had to content himself with making sketches of Fritz while meeting him, but that Fritz didn't sit while the actual oil painting was created. But in any case, it was painted in 1763, directly after the 7 Years War ended, and Fritz famously had aged rapidly during that war, as well as lost weight, so presumably in rl he looked more haggard. But a court painter in the 18th century is in the business of offering flattering likenesses that still somewhat resemble their subjects, not hardcore realism. Then again, maybe the fact the war was over now and he'd come out with all his territory intact against four foreign powers put Fritz into an extra good mood while the painter sketched him.

I... um. He didn't actually have syphilis, right?

It was one of the rumors making the rounds due to Joseph not marrying a third time and not having any known bastards. When that happens with a ruling monarch who has a vested interest in continuing his dynasty, people search for explanations, especially since they don't have access to the monarch's private correspondance.
ETA:also worth bearing in mind that not only did Joseph come from a famously fertile family, he himself had gotten Isabella pregnant repeatedly in their few years of marriage, so there was no question of him having started out as sterile. /ETA.

Now, in ViennaJoe's case, we have the letter when Leopold has his first son (that's when MT is still alive) with the "THANK YOU GREAT POPULATOR!" congratulations making it very clear Joseph was really determined not to marry again and was glad Leopold solved the dynastic question for him, we also know he really really hadn't wanted the second marriage to begin with, and that he was still traumatized by Isabella's death and grieving when it happened. But the avarage contemporary doesn't know that, the avarage contemporary sees an Emperor who does not procreate either legally or illegally. With Fritz, that contributed to the "gay? gay!" stories, but in combination with the "got STD as a young man" story. Because, let's face it, STD (whether gonorrhea or the more damaging syphilis) is something that's more likely to happen than not in an age where "safer sex" isn't on the menu. You didn't even have to be promiscious to get it - just think of the wife of Charles Hanbury-Williams, who was infected by her husband and understably cut off relations because of it. (Thankfully, she didn't get as severe a case of syphilis as her husband did, who died of it after losing his mind first.)

Now, as to whether historical Joseph had it: we have no idea. If he had often sex with prostitutes, the likelihood is certainly higher than otherwise, but then again, see above, having had sex just once with the wrong person is enough to catch an infection. Also, on the other end of the scale, being promiscious doesn't have to mean you also catch an STD - Charles II. certainly had a lot of sex in his life time, and yet managed to avoid an infection. (How do we know? Because Restoration gossip certainly would have pounced on it. As it did in the case of two of Charles' pals, Buckingham and later Rochester.) He certainly haven't had third degree syphilis, though, since he remained compos mentis till the end.

Speaking of the sex lives of European monarchs, the MT & Mimi chat after the time skip and before MT collapses also had this bit:

Mimi: I hear MA got pregnant. Yay!
MT: About time, too. I had to send Joseph to Paris for that to happen.
Mimi: Really?
MT: Indeed. As it turned out, young Louis had no idea of how to go about it, and Joseph had to explain it in detail.
Mimi: A French King who needs to be told how to have sex by an Austrian. Mama, you've truly changed the face of Europe.

Dr. Freud and Dr. Ruth, in the future: You have no idea what's coming.

Edited Date: 2022-04-28 09:12 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Leopold being the one eager to pounce on prostitutes in the show in the light of Leopold later presenting Joseph as the one who can't get enough of them amused me, too.

I know, me too! I was like, "Didn't we just read a disapproving letter from Leopold?" Mind you, none of this says anything about how he felt when he was very young. ;)

Mimi: A French King who needs to be told how to have sex by an Austrian.

Hahahaha! It's true, the last two French kings are turning over in their respective graves, and Henri IV can't believe his ghostly ears.

From:

selenak

Mind you, none of this says anything about how he felt when he was very young. ;)

Also, there's the law of projection and accusing your brother (literally) of what you are guilty of. Even though Pelham thinks we can take Leopold at his word re: Joseph & prostitutes but must not believe Leopold's enemies and the gossips who accuse him of having shagged every moving female in the vicinity throughout his life.

More seriously, I dare say adult Leopold prided himself on having sex without paying for it - in cash, that is. Nice town palaces and wardrobe and jewelry etc. for mistresses are completely different.

It's true, the last two French kings are turning over in their respective graves, and Henri IV can't believe his ghostly ears.

Presumably Louis XIII is the only Bourbon king up to that point who doesn't feel Louis XVI let down the side with this in the hereafter...

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Presumably Louis XIII is the only Bourbon king up to that point who doesn't feel Louis XVI let down the side with this in the hereafter...

Exactly what I was thinking! Everyone else is yelling from beyond the grave, "This is what you call keeping up the family traditions, young man?" :P

From:

cahn

Nice town palaces and wardrobe and jewelry etc. for mistresses are completely different.

Totally different! ;)

Presumably Louis XIII is the only Bourbon king up to that point who doesn't feel Louis XVI let down the side with this in the hereafter...

More about Louis XIII? I read wikipedia and it said he might be gay? How much should I trust wikipedia?

Edited Date: 2022-05-05 05:06 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

My own impression, based on a great many Richelieu biographies though no Louis XIII biographies that I've read, was that he most likely was gay, but unlike his younger son Philippe did not have sex with any of his male favourites. (He only had one female favourite in between the guys, and that relationship does not come across as passionate compared to the others.) Louis XIII in general has a repressed, unhappy aura. It should be said, though, that after his father died, he was an unhappy child. As mentioned previously a couple of times, his mother very much prefered his younger brother Gaston, and Louis loathed his mother's favourite and likely lover Concini, the marshal of Ancre. When Louis was a teenager, his falconer, de Luynes, and first own favourite was instrumental in organizing the overthrow of Concini and Maria de' Medici's regency. By that time Concinci was so spectactularly hated among the general population that he was literally torn to shreds by the people. Someone who watched this and never forgot it was young Armand du Plessis, bishop of Lucon. He had impressed the Queen Regent at the General Assembly after Henri IV's death, remember, and being young and ambitious had risen in her favor, which made her son Louis automatically dislike him. This meant Armand and his family got banished to Avignon for a while after Concini's fall, but then Armand (still not Richelieu) approached de Luynes with the suggestion that he could mediate between the exiled Queen Mother and her son, which Louis accepted. The reconciliation accomplished, he was called back, married his oldest niece to Luyne's nephew and showed his administrative skills so that even when Luynes died and the next (male) favourite was installed, Armand got to be de facto PM and was made a Cardinal (now he's Richeieu!) when France got its hand on a Cardinal's hat again. There was just one big problem. Maria de' Medici, understandably, thought he owed her and that he should represent her policies. Otoh, the conclusion that Richelieu had drawn from Concini's ending was that he needed to build and prioritize his connection to Louis above all else, and also his policies and Maria de' Medici's policies completely diverged by now. Richelieu was concinved France had a shot at displacing Spain as the dominant Catholic power in Europe, whereas Maria was pro Habsburg. This all led to a showdown at the so called "Day of Dupes" where Maria de' Medici gave her son a "Richelieu or me!" ultimatum, and thought she'd won. So did a lot of courtiers who promptly showed their hostility against Richelieu. Except that as it turned out, the Cardinal had won, Louis picked him. Cue again and forever exiled Queen Mother and a lot of scrambling courtiers.

The Louis XIII & Richelieu relationship was really interesting in that it did not fall into any obvious tropes. Louis had started out disliking not-yet-Richelieu, and he was won over by the sheer competence. Otoh, he was very aware people said Richelieu was the true King and resented that. They were fifteen years apart, which isn't quite enough for a father/son relationship, but ensured they weren't really of the same generation, either, though Louis at times confided in Richelieu about very personal stuff, too. In the last years of their lives, the Cinq Mars affair happened, which was a tragedy on various levels. Cinq Mars, young, pretty, none too bright, son of one of Richelieu's (dead) loyal lieutenants, was introduced to Louis by Richelieu as a seemingly safe option for "latest favourite". Only then it turned out Cinq Mars had a massive ego. He even quarrelled with the King (Richelieu had to reconcile them, we have the letters). Then he wanted to marry one of Louis' rich cousins, which would have meant he'd become a part of the royal family, at which point Richelieu heard the alarm bells ringing and said no. This made Cinq Mars turn against him. Richelieu always had a surplus of enemies, with whom Cinq Mars now teamed up, promising his co-conspirators he could get Louis' approval for an assassination of Richelieu the way teenage Louis had greenlighted the disposal of Concini all those years ago. He didn't quite succeed, but what he got was a lame no. Louis said "He's a Cardinal, I'd be excommunicated", whereupon de Treville, the boss of the Musketeers, said it would be his honor to go to Rome and get a papal forgiveness for the King. Louis didn't say anything anymore, which could have been a silent okay. Or not. We'll never know.

However, Richelieu still had the better spies. Once he'd learned of the plan, and learned that Cinq Mars (which he hadn't told Louis) had approached the Spaniards (offering to make peace after Richelieu's death), which given that France was at war with Spain was treason, and presented all the proof against Cinq Mars, Louis had no choice but to sign Cinq Mars' death sentence instead. (By executioner, not assassination.) And he did make Louis sign that warrant in person. (Presumably he didn't feel too warmly about the King right then once he'd learned Louis' defense of him had amounted to "he's a Cardinal, I'd be excommunicated", this after decades of working for the guy). The lethal irony as that both Richelieu and Louis were already very sick at that point. They only lived for another year or so after Cinq Mars' execution, Louis outliving Richelieu by only six months or so. Richelieu did get Louis to promise that after the Cardinal's death, Richelieu's protegé Mazarin would succeed him as de facto PM (the title didn't exist yet, but that's what the job amounted to), and Louis did keep that promise. (Richelieu: one of the very few men of power not afraid to find and train a gifted successor to take their place, which meant that after his death, the system they'd built around them didn't collapse. Looking at you, Bismarck, who didn't do that because ego. Or you, Fritz.)

In between Luynes and Cinq Mars, there were a couple of other male and one female favourite for Louis XIII, but as opposed to either of his sons, gossip didn't think he actually had sex with them, which is why I think he'd be the one Bourbon sympathizing with Louis XVI!

From:

cahn

Eeee, thank you! :D I actually forgot that I had asked you about Louis because your writeup of Richelieu was so fascinating. Okay, I am sold on Richelieu, and also Richelieu & Louis XIII; is there a readable biography you'd recommend?

Someone who watched this and never forgot it was young Armand du Plessis, bishop of Lucon

Oh wow. This whole story is just fascinating and I'm just imagining Armand/Richelieu thinking of Concini the whole time.

This all led to a showdown at the so called "Day of Dupes" where Maria de' Medici gave her son a "Richelieu or me!" ultimatum, and thought she'd won. So did a lot of courtiers who promptly showed their hostility against Richelieu. Except that as it turned out, the Cardinal had won, Louis picked him. Cue again and forever exiled Queen Mother and a lot of scrambling courtiers.

! and this is epic!

Louis had started out disliking not-yet-Richelieu, and he was won over by the sheer competence. Otoh, he was very aware people said Richelieu was the true King and resented that.

...maybe this doesn't have a trope name, but I really like it! (I am just a sucker for all-out competence in any form, really.)

They were fifteen years apart, which isn't quite enough for a father/son relationship, but ensured they weren't really of the same generation, either, though Louis at times confided in Richelieu about very personal stuff, too.

...this is great. So they don't even quite fall into the uneasy friends/almost enemies trope, although it sounds like it's also time-dependent.

Louis said "He's a Cardinal, I'd be excommunicated", whereupon de Treville, the boss of the Musketeers, said it would be his honor to go to Rome and get a papal forgiveness for the King. Louis didn't say anything anymore

LOUIS

The lethal irony as that both Richelieu and Louis were already very sick at that point.

Ohhhhh, that really is lethal irony.

Richelieu: one of the very few men of power not afraid to find and train a gifted successor to take their place, which meant that after his death, the system they'd built around them didn't collapse.

Yay! I remember you'd mentioned this before (but not until you mentioned it again, thank you as usual for being patient with me!)