Still one of my favorite quotes from Lehndorff :D well, gosh, I have so many, but I mean. That one it is sort of hard to misinterpret. Unless you are, I guess, an editor... I also love it because of the evidence Heinrich wasn't conventionally beautiful :D
Wow, that's... an interesting letter. I mean, not only easily refutable, but unless Sophie and AW were a lot closer than I imagine they were, I don't really see why this friend would bother to say something like that to her? Like, wouldn't Sophie be more interested in it as (unfortunately tragic) gossip about old acquaintances than as something with marked emotional impact? And now we've seen enough adulteration of primary sources that... yeah, I kinda am going with your alternate theory as well.
unless Sophie and AW were a lot closer than I imagine they were
Well, AW was passionately in love with Sophie and fainted at her wedding, and Sophie had agreed to marry him, only Fritz said no, and rather than have extramarital sex, she decided to tell him no and marry someone else. See here for selenak's writeup. So I could see AW's public humiliation and death having marked emotional impact, even a few years after she married her second choice. Of course, I haven't actually read up to that point in her diary, so I don't know what her feelings were at that point.
Oh riiiiiight, THAT Sophie! I did remember that writeup, I just got confused. OK, thanks :) Yeah, in that case I guess I could see it, though it does still seem a little weird (I mean, the insistence on Fritz making up through Amalie, not writing about AW in general).
Still one of my favorite quotes from Lehndorff :D well, gosh, I have so many, but I mean. That one it is sort of hard to misinterpret. Unless you are, I guess, an editor... I also love it because of the evidence Heinrich wasn't conventionally beautiful :D
If you need a future exact citation, it's December 22, 1753, page 148 in the 2007 reprint of volume 1, and it says: Prince Heinrich comes to dinner in tight riding pants and beautiful like an angel. We are very high spirited. ("Wir sind sehr vergnügt" can also be translated as "we enjoy ourselves a lot".) All the more remarkable since in the previous entry from December 21, Lehndorff reports having had a long conversation with Heinrich that makes him feel very sad. But such is Lehndorff's normal state of being in the first half of the 1750s, all but holding a daisy and going "he loves me, he loves me not". The other entry of Lehndorff's that made us feel curious back in the day before reading the entire diary is cribbed from earlier that year, May 1st and May 2nd 1753, and that's young Lehndorff at his emo best, even m ore so in the full length version of those entries. Context: first AW and then Heinrich are about to leave Berlin. Not for another country! They're just going to Oranienburg and Potsdam respectively. Schönhausen, as a reminder, is where EC resides and Lehndorff is supposed to do his job.
May 1st. The saddest day of my life. The Prince of Prussia goes to Oranienburg, where he'll stay during the King's absence. Pöllnitz visits me and shows me his new memoirs about the last four rulers of our royal house. There are many strange anecdotes. I go to have supper with Prince Heinrich, my heart heavy. Here I dine with the old Baron and Bielfeld. I find it impossible to say a word. I go with the Prince to the Queen, where we have supper. Then I hurry to be alone with this dear Prince. But what a sad meeting! I leave him without having told him a word. I see his tears fall, the dearest of the world. What a man to be worshipped! What a loss for me! Yes, I swear eternal devotion to you! I return home without consolation. I can't sleep. I write a letter to the Prince.
May 2nd. I rise early. The Prince writes a letter to me which makes me melt into tears. I jump on a horse and want to rush to him. When I see his carriage from afar, I hide behind a house; for my heart would have burst into pieces if I had seen him. I go to Schönhausen, where I walk full of sadness. I return home and write a very sad letter to another person.* I could never have believed that it is possible to be so devoted to another man. But what a man it is I have to leave! In pagan times, they would have made him a god, in our time, all who know him build altars to him in their hearts.
*Asteriks: Schmidt-Lötzen tells us older Lehndorff annotated this to say his younger self meant Countess Bentinck, who as you may recall was on a vain quest for Heinrich herself at that time.
I see his tears fall, the dearest of the world. What a man to be worshipped! What a loss for me! Yes, I swear eternal devotion to you!
Wait, I know you've excerpted this for us before and somehow either I missed the swearing eternal devotion or I forgot it. <33333333333333333333333
In pagan times, they would have made him a god, in our time, all who know him build altars to him in their hearts.
except all of Heinrich's actual lovers Awwwwwwww!
*Asteriks: Schmidt-Lötzen tells us older Lehndorff annotated this to say his younger self meant Countess Bentinck, who as you may recall was on a vain quest for Heinrich herself at that time.
That is amazingly hilarious. Now I'm just imagining Lehndorff and Countess Bentinck having soulful conversations (both in letter and in person) about Heinrich and how beautiful and unattainable he is :D
Eternal devotion: "ewige Anhänglichkeit" in German, and who knows what in French. The thing is, I bet a great many guys in their early 20s swear something like that in the heat of passion, but Lehndorff is one of the few whom we know to have kept this vow for their remaining life.
except all of Heinrich's actual lovers
Marwitz: You try building altars to the King's younger brother when the King is looking over your shoulder the entire time. Go on. I dare you. Reisewitz: Look, I swear I did adore him. Okay, so I was the first to spend lots of his money in dubious ways, but look at all the gardening I did at Rheinsberg! Also, I offed myself when the debts grew too many. Because I was sorry. Lamberg: He dumped me for goddam Kalckreuth. That put an end to any altars right then and there. Kalckreuth: I could have had the King, I'm sure of it, and I picked Heinrich anyway. That was mighty generous of me. Also I was the true military genius. And I gave him an excuse to separate from Mina. What did I get? I mean, other than lots of presents and promotions through the war. I got dumped for Kaphengst! Of all the indignities. Kaphengst: I put a portrait of him on the wall of the nice country palace he bought me. Does that qualify? Mara: You don't get anywhere with this prince if you don't behave like a bastard towards him. #canon Tauentzien: I don't know about altars, but I did get him to watch contemporary theatre, starring his brother. Antoine de la Roche-Raymon: Heinrich was the best, and I adored him. Why Lehndorff wouldn't believe I did, I have no idea. #finalguy
Now I'm just imagining Lehndorff and Countess Bentinck having soulful conversations (both in letter and in person) about Heinrich and how beautiful and unattainable he is :D
Your imagination is closer to the reality as depicted in the relevant diary entries than Charlotte Pangels, based on those same diary entries, imagining Lehndorff as a yenta shipping Heinrich/Bentinck. Mind you, later when Lehndorff was in one of his "he loves me not/he's so cold towards me, I just know it's all over!" parts of the cycle, they also bitched about him together, until she took off to greener pastures since her efforts to get Fritz to support her politically had failed as well.
LOOOL at the boyfriends! Heinrich sure knew how to pick 'em.
A great many guys in their early 20s swear something like that in the heat of passion, but Lehndorff is one of the few whom we know to have kept this vow for their remaining life.
I keep rereading this and laughing, and it occurred to me--I kind of want to put this in rheinsberg, because someday, Ziebura will not be fresh in my memory, and I know that before I read the Heinrich bio, I had a lot of trouble keeping the boyfriends and their order straight. And this is a perfect mnemonic!
I'd really like to take all the ficlets and wacky fic premises we've produced and put them somewhere... either in rheinsberg or on AO3. Because there are so many brilliant things! And I don't know where to find half of them anymore :(
okay I know I am coming to this late (the weekend was busier than I was expecting) but OMG THIS IS SO GREAT
Marwitz: You try building altars to the King's younger brother when the King is looking over your shoulder the entire time. Go on. I dare you.
HAHAHAHA! Okay, Marwitz, I'll give you that. That would be kinda difficult.
Also, I offed myself when the debts grew too many. Because I was sorry.
Um, okay... :)
I could have had the King, I'm sure of it, and I picked Heinrich anyway. That was mighty generous of me.
HAHAHAHA I suppose it was. In some sort of way.
Also I was the true military genius. And I gave him an excuse to separate from Mina.
LOLOLOLOL
Kaphengst: I put a portrait of him on the wall of the nice country palace he bought me. Does that qualify?
This is the part where I laughed out loud and D was like "what's so funny?" and I was like... "umm... it is one of those things where it would take quite a long time and a book in German to give you the context you'd need to appreciate it. But anyway it's one of my Fritz friends who wrote something really funny" and fortunately he accepted that or I'd still be here explaining it to him
Tauentzien: I don't know about altars, but I did get him to watch contemporary theatre, starring his brother.
*facepalm*
Heinrich was the best, and I adored him.
<333333 :D
The thing is, I bet a great many guys in their early 20s swear something like that in the heat of passion, but Lehndorff is one of the few whom we know to have kept this vow for their remaining life.
*nods* Yes, that's why I love Lehndorff so much <333333 *snuggly sparkly hearts* (and also why he is so hilarious -- it's partially, too, because with all that his thing for Heinrich doesn't get mentioned by all these editors??
Oh, the editor (Schmidt-Lötzen) mentions it, alright (as in: "to him, Heinrich was the Prince" or "when the author of these writings bursts into tears as the prospect of his beloved Prince Heinrich leaving Berlin for a few days, it is one more sign of a sentimental era"), it's just the reviewers of the 2007 re-edition of the first volume don't.
Something else that occured to me when thinking of the gallery of (known) Heinrich boyfriends: what's missing there is any type of erastes. Whereas Fritz has his sugar daddies as crown prince, complete with double Socrates/Alcibiades present for Mantteufel and Voltaire, and all the Suhm adoration. But while you could argue Heinrich himself played the erastes role in his late life affairs, in his youth he really seems at no point have wanted an older man to show him the ropes, so to speak. Either as a mentor or a lover, let alone both. If Ziebura is right about Marwitz being his first love, he starts with a guy three years older and keeps within his own generation until he hits middle life. Which is interesting in a man whom people, including Ziebura, assume to have had a kink for being dominated by his sex partners.
Ooh, I have so many things I want to say but I can't! The erastes point is very interesting, and not one I had noticed! I'll limit myself to:
1) I have never been convinced Heinrich was into being dominated. It's one possible explanation, of course, and one that I definitely find hot, but I think there are too many alternate explanations, at least given the limited evidence I have at my disposal. Ziebura may have a more accurate picture.
2) Hypothesis: Heinrich consistently started relationships with guys in their early 20s, whether he was 19 or 60. Counterevidence, selenak? I don't know all his boyfriends' birthdates, nor do I know when all the relationships started.
If so, possible evidence that sexual passion played a much stronger (although not exclusive) role in his relationships, compared to Fritz, who was a little more all over the place.
In addition to Voltaire, Manteuffel, and Suhm, let's not forget Katte was 26 when Fritz was 18, and Lt. Borcke, possible candidate for boyfriend and at the very least, close relationship, was, 10 years older than Fritz, so 25 when Fritz was 15. And it's been pointed out that the Rheinsberg circle, even the non-boyfriends, were by and large a generation older than Fritz. Fritz was definitely drawn to older mentors when he was younger, along with older romantic, maybe sexual partners.
Heinrich was indeed the Prince to our darling Lehndorff, glad to be wrong on that front :D (although lol to the "sentimental era") But this really shakes my faith in reviewers. How could they miss the biggest thing in Lehndorff's life??
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-05 05:13 am (UTC)Still one of my favorite quotes from Lehndorff :D well, gosh, I have so many, but I mean. That one it is sort of hard to misinterpret. Unless you are, I guess, an editor... I also love it because of the evidence Heinrich wasn't conventionally beautiful :D
Wow, that's... an interesting letter. I mean, not only easily refutable, but unless Sophie and AW were a lot closer than I imagine they were, I don't really see why this friend would bother to say something like that to her? Like, wouldn't Sophie be more interested in it as (unfortunately tragic) gossip about old acquaintances than as something with marked emotional impact? And now we've seen enough adulteration of primary sources that... yeah, I kinda am going with your alternate theory as well.
Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-05 05:20 am (UTC)Well, AW was passionately in love with Sophie and fainted at her wedding, and Sophie had agreed to marry him, only Fritz said no, and rather than have extramarital sex, she decided to tell him no and marry someone else. See here for
Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-05 05:24 am (UTC)Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-05 04:52 pm (UTC)If you need a future exact citation, it's December 22, 1753, page 148 in the 2007 reprint of volume 1, and it says: Prince Heinrich comes to dinner in tight riding pants and beautiful like an angel. We are very high spirited. ("Wir sind sehr vergnügt" can also be translated as "we enjoy ourselves a lot".) All the more remarkable since in the previous entry from December 21, Lehndorff reports having had a long conversation with Heinrich that makes him feel very sad. But such is Lehndorff's normal state of being in the first half of the 1750s, all but holding a daisy and going "he loves me, he loves me not". The other entry of Lehndorff's that made us feel curious back in the day before reading the entire diary is cribbed from earlier that year, May 1st and May 2nd 1753, and that's young Lehndorff at his emo best, even m ore so in the full length version of those entries. Context: first AW and then Heinrich are about to leave Berlin. Not for another country! They're just going to Oranienburg and Potsdam respectively. Schönhausen, as a reminder, is where EC resides and Lehndorff is supposed to do his job.
May 1st. The saddest day of my life. The Prince of Prussia goes to Oranienburg, where he'll stay during the King's absence. Pöllnitz visits me and shows me his new memoirs about the last four rulers of our royal house. There are many strange anecdotes. I go to have supper with Prince Heinrich, my heart heavy. Here I dine with the old Baron and Bielfeld. I find it impossible to say a word. I go with the Prince to the Queen, where we have supper. Then I hurry to be alone with this dear Prince. But what a sad meeting! I leave him without having told him a word. I see his tears fall, the dearest of the world. What a man to be worshipped! What a loss for me! Yes, I swear eternal devotion to you! I return home without consolation. I can't sleep. I write a letter to the Prince.
May 2nd. I rise early. The Prince writes a letter to me which makes me melt into tears. I jump on a horse and want to rush to him. When I see his carriage from afar, I hide behind a house; for my heart would have burst into pieces if I had seen him. I go to Schönhausen, where I walk full of sadness. I return home and write a very sad letter to another person.* I could never have believed that it is possible to be so devoted to another man. But what a man it is I have to leave! In pagan times, they would have made him a god, in our time, all who know him build altars to him in their hearts.
*Asteriks: Schmidt-Lötzen tells us older Lehndorff annotated this to say his younger self meant Countess Bentinck, who as you may recall was on a vain quest for Heinrich herself at that time.
Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-11 04:34 am (UTC)Wait, I know you've excerpted this for us before and somehow either I missed the swearing eternal devotion or I forgot it. <33333333333333333333333
In pagan times, they would have made him a god, in our time, all who know him build altars to him in their hearts.
except all of Heinrich's actual loversAwwwwwwww!*Asteriks: Schmidt-Lötzen tells us older Lehndorff annotated this to say his younger self meant Countess Bentinck, who as you may recall was on a vain quest for Heinrich herself at that time.
That is amazingly hilarious. Now I'm just imagining Lehndorff and Countess Bentinck having soulful conversations (both in letter and in person) about Heinrich and how beautiful and unattainable he is :D
Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-11 12:18 pm (UTC)except all of Heinrich's actual loversMarwitz: You try building altars to the King's younger brother when the King is looking over your shoulder the entire time. Go on. I dare you.
Reisewitz: Look, I swear I did adore him. Okay, so I was the first to spend lots of his money in dubious ways, but look at all the gardening I did at Rheinsberg! Also, I offed myself when the debts grew too many. Because I was sorry.
Lamberg: He dumped me for goddam Kalckreuth. That put an end to any altars right then and there.
Kalckreuth: I could have had the King, I'm sure of it, and I picked Heinrich anyway. That was mighty generous of me. Also I was the true military genius. And I gave him an excuse to separate from Mina. What did I get? I mean, other than lots of presents and promotions through the war. I got dumped for Kaphengst! Of all the indignities.
Kaphengst: I put a portrait of him on the wall of the nice country palace he bought me. Does that qualify?
Mara: You don't get anywhere with this prince if you don't behave like a bastard towards him. #canon
Tauentzien: I don't know about altars, but I did get him to watch contemporary theatre, starring his brother.
Antoine de la Roche-Raymon: Heinrich was the best, and I adored him. Why Lehndorff wouldn't believe I did, I have no idea. #finalguy
Now I'm just imagining Lehndorff and Countess Bentinck having soulful conversations (both in letter and in person) about Heinrich and how beautiful and unattainable he is :D
Your imagination is closer to the reality as depicted in the relevant diary entries than Charlotte Pangels, based on those same diary entries, imagining Lehndorff as a yenta shipping Heinrich/Bentinck. Mind you, later when Lehndorff was in one of his "he loves me not/he's so cold towards me, I just know it's all over!" parts of the cycle, they also bitched about him together, until she took off to greener pastures since her efforts to get Fritz to support her politically had failed as well.
Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-11 05:30 pm (UTC)A great many guys in their early 20s swear something like that in the heat of passion, but Lehndorff is one of the few whom we know to have kept this vow for their remaining life.
Some manage it by dying in their mid 20s. </3
Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-12 07:26 pm (UTC)Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-13 05:42 am (UTC)Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-13 12:11 pm (UTC)Okay, posted! You remain, as always, the best.
Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-14 04:11 am (UTC)Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-14 04:10 am (UTC)Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-14 05:08 am (UTC)Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-14 04:08 am (UTC)Marwitz: You try building altars to the King's younger brother when the King is looking over your shoulder the entire time. Go on. I dare you.
HAHAHAHA! Okay, Marwitz, I'll give you that. That would be kinda difficult.
Also, I offed myself when the debts grew too many. Because I was sorry.
Um, okay... :)
I could have had the King, I'm sure of it, and I picked Heinrich anyway. That was mighty generous of me.
HAHAHAHA I suppose it was. In some sort of way.
Also I was the true military genius. And I gave him an excuse to separate from Mina.
LOLOLOLOL
Kaphengst: I put a portrait of him on the wall of the nice country palace he bought me. Does that qualify?
This is the part where I laughed out loud and D was like "what's so funny?" and I was like... "umm... it is one of those things where it would take quite a long time
and a book in Germanto give you the context you'd need to appreciate it. But anyway it's one of my Fritz friends who wrote something really funny" and fortunately he accepted that or I'd still be here explaining it to himTauentzien: I don't know about altars, but I did get him to watch contemporary theatre, starring his brother.
*facepalm*
Heinrich was the best, and I adored him.
<333333 :D
The thing is, I bet a great many guys in their early 20s swear something like that in the heat of passion, but Lehndorff is one of the few whom we know to have kept this vow for their remaining life.
*nods* Yes, that's why I love Lehndorff so much <333333 *snuggly sparkly hearts* (and also why he is so hilarious -- it's partially, too, because with all that his thing for Heinrich doesn't get mentioned by all these editors??
Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-14 06:22 am (UTC)Something else that occured to me when thinking of the gallery of (known) Heinrich boyfriends: what's missing there is any type of erastes. Whereas Fritz has his sugar daddies as crown prince, complete with double Socrates/Alcibiades present for Mantteufel and Voltaire, and all the Suhm adoration. But while you could argue Heinrich himself played the erastes role in his late life affairs, in his youth he really seems at no point have wanted an older man to show him the ropes, so to speak. Either as a mentor or a lover, let alone both. If Ziebura is right about Marwitz being his first love, he starts with a guy three years older and keeps within his own generation until he hits middle life. Which is interesting in a man whom people, including Ziebura, assume to have had a kink for being dominated by his sex partners.
Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-15 03:42 am (UTC)1) I have never been convinced Heinrich was into being dominated. It's one possible explanation, of course, and one that I definitely find hot, but I think there are too many alternate explanations, at least given the limited evidence I have at my disposal. Ziebura may have a more accurate picture.
2) Hypothesis: Heinrich consistently started relationships with guys in their early 20s, whether he was 19 or 60. Counterevidence,
If so, possible evidence that sexual passion played a much stronger (although not exclusive) role in his relationships, compared to Fritz, who was a little more all over the place.
In addition to Voltaire, Manteuffel, and Suhm, let's not forget Katte was 26 when Fritz was 18, and Lt. Borcke, possible candidate for boyfriend and at the very least, close relationship, was, 10 years older than Fritz, so 25 when Fritz was 15. And it's been pointed out that the Rheinsberg circle, even the non-boyfriends, were by and large a generation older than Fritz. Fritz was definitely drawn to older mentors when he was younger, along with older romantic, maybe sexual partners.
Re: Lehndorff
Date: 2020-07-17 02:19 pm (UTC)