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- 1: The Jewish War: Last half of book 5
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timeasmymeasure
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Re: Ch 11-13
Date: 2020-05-21 06:28 am (UTC)I can also see how he would have preferred a life in constant conflict with Fritz, but where he could do interesting things and was always walking a bit of a tightrope, to the one where he doesn't get to do anything interesting and no one wants him to anymore.
There's also this: given he was 14 years younger than Fritz, he must have always expected to outlive him, and the prospect of eventually, one day, live a Fritz-less life where he'll be both free and useful probably kept him going. And since pre-Fritz' death, he did get along with FW2 pretty well, he really did not expect this lightning fast ending up in complete ignored retirement. Basically: pre-Fritz death, he wrote to Ferdinand: I don't know whether we'll be bedded on roses once he's gone, but one thing I know, there will be fewer thorns than during the last 46 years.
...and then he found out that the thorns at least interest.
I know you told us the Mirabeau story before, but it's pretty telling that he just... lets it go. (I mean, can you imagine Fritz letting it go??
To be fair, Heinrich was way less emotionally invested into Mirabeau to begin with than Fritz with Voltaire. (And Fritz himself is of course the big example of Heinrich in a Sweeney Todd ("And he never forgot, and he never forgave") mode.) (But then, Heinrich was super duper emotionally invested in Fritz. Negatively invested, but well, hateship of his life.)
I think with Fritz and people trashing him, it depended on the degree of emotional investment and his situation du jour as well. Hence the contrast between:
Journalist in tiny Franconian town of Erlangen, Editor of journal that can't have THAT much of a circulation: Writes Fritz-criticial articles in the Silesian War.
Fritz as the enstrangement builds up to its climax: I can't believe you and the Margrave stand for this and haven't flung him into the dungeon yet, Wilhelmine! What kind of sibling love is this!?!!!
and:
Voltaire's postumous memoirs are published in 1784 and, so Lehndorff notes, available in two languages in Berlin bookstores till the end of Fritz' life.
Fritz: Lucchessini, have I told you about how Voltaire was the worst yet? Gimme my copy of the Pucelle with the personal dedication, and read me some more Voltaire.
-I really like how he helped out / sponsored all those people. That's just really great.
What impressed me there, too, was that on the one hand, he helps French émigrés, but on the other, he still keeps an open mind about revolutionary France per se, and its goals.
Whereas most people at the time, especially in his social class were: Down with the rabble! The poor, poor dead king and queen and murdered aristocrats! What do you mean, help those refugees? No way, we need to save money, and they're probably only spongers and thieves anyway, and you know *insert slur about French national character* But the dead French royals!
Re: Ch 11-13
Date: 2020-05-21 06:44 am (UTC)I'm going to second this recommendation. I think I made the right call to continue, but the politics were confusing even for *me*, and the frustration was definitely frustrating. I don't see you getting a whole lot out of it that we can't summarize.
What impressed me there, too, was that on the one hand, he helps French émigrés, but on the other, he still keeps an open mind about revolutionary France per se, and its goals.
Yeah, same.
It's also interesting to watch Fritz go, "Previous monarch was a micromanaging autocrat, which I think is an awesome way to run a country," and Heinrich go, "Previous monarch was a micromanaging autocrat, which I think is the WORST way to run a country." Part of it is, of course, do you personally get the benefits of the micromanaging autocracy or not? But I think part of it is personality, much like Charlotte and Anna Amalia as parents. "Well, that sucked, I will now do exactly the same thing/the exact opposite."
~Ch 14-15
Date: 2020-05-23 05:05 am (UTC)Mina: ...
But yeah, the Basel Peace was extremely confusing and I skipped most of it. Although I wasn't following the military or political bits, I did think it was funny how everyone around the king was like, "We don't know what to do now... hey, let's ask Heinrich, we've got nothing to lose." Although of course it's sad too.
Also liked the line about how FW2 was all "dunno about going up against Austria and France BOTH?? too hard" and how Heinrich was the only one who remembered about going up against Austria and France and Russian, lol. Not that that was a good idea, exactly...
So I am not sure I parsed this correctly (and may have run into this gracious/ungracious translation error mildred notes) but, is it right that FW3 listened to him about domestic stuff but not about foreign policy at all? (I am pretty sure about the latter, but not about the former.)
Re: ~Ch 14-15
Date: 2020-05-23 08:03 am (UTC)Henckel his AD early in the 7 Years War (requested Transfer because of Kalckreuth but remained Heinrich's friend; Heinrich after his death supported his widow and Kids (hence, btw, also the reason why he organizes the wedding of the daugher)
Henckel von Donnersmarck the son: said son, wrote memoirs mostly dealing with the Napoleonic wars, but also containing a few old age Heinrich stories
Henckel the Grandson: published granddad's war time Diary and the letters of the Princes to Granddad
HvD the son's stories about Heinrich as an excentric old Gentleman were quoted/paraphrased by both Ziebura and Christian von Krockow in his Fritz and Heinrich double portrait, and they sounded affectionate there, but in the original there's an unmistakable note of contempt going with it, due to the occasional remarks like "no one would have believed that THIS was the brother of the great Friedrich, the hero of the Seven Years War", with his not wearing any manly uniforms but French ancien regime clothing, foppish wigs, and general Francophile cultural taste. (Why no, HvD Fils never met Fritz in person.) :(
Mind you, the wedding itself is another example of fraternal parallels, since it's Heinrich venting his autocratic vein but, due to him not being a monarch, in a way that's harmless and charming (except for the groom). You can bet that if anyone had dared to show up late at any of the weddings Fritz had arranged, not only would the wedding have gone ahead regardless, too, but there'd been hell to pay later.
Mind you, the stories are still good; HvD fils is also the source for Heinrich pretending not to speak German but when the hour was late and wine had been drunk would switch to "Das will ich Ihnen auch noch sagen" mid argument, for example. And it's a very generational reflecting the big cultural shift that had taken place. But still.
FW3: don't remember exactly, since I've only read that part once. But as far as I recall, FW3 didn't disagree with Heinrich's big three interior Reform Memoranda but didn't follow up on them, either, until Freiherr von Stein years later said the same Thing.
Re: ~Ch 14-15
Date: 2020-05-25 04:16 am (UTC)Ch 16: the end
Date: 2020-05-25 05:29 am (UTC)So, yeah, you were right that the best stuff is at the very end and it's depressing up until that point, but I'm not sorry I skimmed through the rest of it (even if none of the politics or military stuff took).
-Because I am such a Lehndorff stan, of course the most tragic (tragifarcical? farcitragedy?) was when Lehndorff came to visit and Heinrich was like "man, that was boring, all we could do was relive memories, which wasn't much fun." Poor Lehndorff! I guess they must not have had much in common at that point, though, so I get that... but still. *sparkly hearts Lehndorff*
-So I also thought it was hilarious how Marie de la Roche Aymon and Louis had this affair and everyone almost ended up dueling each other -- it's hilarious because, like the text says, she had to share her husband with Heinrich, after all! :P (She was the one who was the awesome character later in life, right?)
-"I think I can forget everything that has happened in the past twelve years here... I have illusions about the past." Well, I guess, points for being honest? But seriously, that was a pretty awful twelve years, I can see why, although before then wasn't exactly a bed of roses, he might choose to remember those over hte past twelve years.
-selenak, thank you for synopsizing the bit where Heinrich reads Wilhelmine's memoirs, because the translation was not good there and it's such a wrenching bit
-I had somehow forgotten by this point that Heinrich's name is actually Friedrich, like everyone else in the entire saga, lol!
But really, poor Heinrich. I feel like if he'd been incompetent that would have been one thing, but to be hyper-competent and not be able to use it, that just seems really awful.
I really enjoyed this, thank you
Re: Ch 16: the end
Date: 2020-05-25 06:51 am (UTC)Secondly, it always pays to look at what Heinrich is doing in addition to what he's saying. And simultanous to before, during and after this visit, he lets Lehndorff and his family live for free in his Berlin town residence. (Reason: Lehndorff had sold his own place in Berlin years ago, since he's been living mostly in East Prussia, but now the boys are grown up and starting in their careers and he wants to be close to them, but getting a house in late 1790s Berlin is awfully expensive, hence Heinrich to the rescue.) Also, he keeps writing to Lehndorff till the end of his life (Lehndorff outlives Heinrich). An essay in a painting catalogue about the Lehndorff family portrait even mentions Heinrich inviting him to Wusterhausen in 1800, which is after the cranky letter from 1799. So: comforting context.
(She was the one who was the awesome character later in life, right?)
Yes, she was the excentric old lady Fontane described, "the last survivor of the Prince Heinrich era" who still talked fondly about him. (And died herself a Rokoko death by cat bite and subsequent infection.)
I had somehow forgotten by this point that Heinrich's name is actually Friedrich, like everyone else in the entire saga, lol!
It's the reason why his tag at A03 is awfully long. For some reason, Wilhelmine by contrast was spared getting listed with all her first names, thankfully.
"I think I can forget everything that has happened in the past twelve years here... I have illusions about the past." Well, I guess, points for being honest? But seriously, that was a pretty awful twelve years, I can see why, although before then wasn't exactly a bed of roses, he might choose to remember those over hte past twelve years.
Quite. I mean, he only would have admitted it very begrudgingly, but if you'd asked him then to choose between living in the Fritz era (or eras, any of those 40 plus years) of his life versus living in the post Fritz years, it's clear what he'd have picked.
But really, poor Heinrich. I feel like if he'd been incompetent that would have been one thing, but to be hyper-competent and not be able to use it, that just seems really awful.
It makes me so angry when older writers like Pangels are like "..and then he deservedly died a bitter old man who wasted his life without anyone caring about him and he brought it on himself, too", because a) he died surrounded by people who cared, b) that he could not use all his abilities had not been his fault, and c) keeping all that frustration in mind, it wouldn't have been surprising if he'd been suicidal and misanthropic to the max, and he wasn't. He engaged with the present till the end (even if he was depressed about it), and he kept enjoying, as he always did, (French) theatre, literature and music.
Re: Ch 16: the end
Date: 2020-05-27 04:58 am (UTC)(but man, Ziebura, what about catering to my interests of gossipy sensationalism and also the romance with Lehndorff?? everyone should cater to those)
a) he died surrounded by people who cared, b) that he could not use all his abilities had not been his fault, and c) keeping all that frustration in mind, it wouldn't have been surprising if he'd been suicidal and misanthropic to the max, and he wasn't. He engaged with the present till the end (even if he was depressed about it), and he kept enjoying, as he always did, (French) theatre, literature and music.
Oh! Yes, I meant to comment on (a) as well -- I do really like how Ziebura makes it clear that in terms of fulfilling relationships he did have a bunch, and he loved and was loved (even if maybe those relationships were not necessarily romantic ones, except for the Comte). <3 And yeah, that's a good point that he was (very understandably) depressed sometimes, but he did engage with life.
And I was also going to say, he likes Gluck :D
Re: ~Ch 14-15
Date: 2020-05-23 10:26 am (UTC)Yeah, that was the best. I was totally going to point you to that if you didn't find it on your own! I also loved Heinrich's "Well, if it had been *me*, the groom would never have found me a virgin" line. Burn!
Also, I am so sympathetic, because if I were Heinrich, people would be hearing about this until I died.
I should have won the Greek prizeAlso liked the line about how FW2 was all "dunno about going up against Austria and France BOTH?? too hard" and how Heinrich was the only one who remembered about going up against Austria and France and Russian, lol. Not that that was a good idea, exactly...
Hahaha, yeah. Heinrich of all people knows you don't want to repeat that. Even Fritz didn't want a repeat!
Heinrich: But if you *need* to repeat it, I'm right here!
So I am not sure I parsed this correctly (and may have run into this gracious/ungracious translation error mildred notes) but, is it right that FW3 listened to him about domestic stuff but not about foreign policy at all?
With the caveat that this was my first time reading up on this subject and I was doing it in a language in which I'm very shaky, that's how I remember it. Heinrich told FW3 he needed to uncover and uproot corruption, and figure out what money was needed for what and where one could get it from, and he designed a whole system for the structure of the government (aka "the one where the monarch *doesn't* do everything personally from 3 am until 9 pm") and FW3 listened to at least some of it. But foreign policy not so much.
Re: ~Ch 14-15
Date: 2020-05-25 04:33 am (UTC)LOL!