The wedding anecdote is great, though having now read the source - Henckel von Donnersmarck the son's memoirs - in the original, I am a bit sad. A reminder, the Henckel von Donnersmarcks in Connection to Heinrich are:
Henckel his AD early in the 7 Years War (requested Transfer because of Kalckreuth but remained Heinrich's friend; Heinrich after his death supported his widow and Kids (hence, btw, also the reason why he organizes the wedding of the daugher)
Henckel von Donnersmarck the son: said son, wrote memoirs mostly dealing with the Napoleonic wars, but also containing a few old age Heinrich stories
Henckel the Grandson: published granddad's war time Diary and the letters of the Princes to Granddad
HvD the son's stories about Heinrich as an excentric old Gentleman were quoted/paraphrased by both Ziebura and Christian von Krockow in his Fritz and Heinrich double portrait, and they sounded affectionate there, but in the original there's an unmistakable note of contempt going with it, due to the occasional remarks like "no one would have believed that THIS was the brother of the great Friedrich, the hero of the Seven Years War", with his not wearing any manly uniforms but French ancien regime clothing, foppish wigs, and general Francophile cultural taste. (Why no, HvD Fils never met Fritz in person.) :(
Mind you, the wedding itself is another example of fraternal parallels, since it's Heinrich venting his autocratic vein but, due to him not being a monarch, in a way that's harmless and charming (except for the groom). You can bet that if anyone had dared to show up late at any of the weddings Fritz had arranged, not only would the wedding have gone ahead regardless, too, but there'd been hell to pay later.
Mind you, the stories are still good; HvD fils is also the source for Heinrich pretending not to speak German but when the hour was late and wine had been drunk would switch to "Das will ich Ihnen auch noch sagen" mid argument, for example. And it's a very generational reflecting the big cultural shift that had taken place. But still.
FW3: don't remember exactly, since I've only read that part once. But as far as I recall, FW3 didn't disagree with Heinrich's big three interior Reform Memoranda but didn't follow up on them, either, until Freiherr von Stein years later said the same Thing.
That indeed makes me sad too :(( Everyone should like Heinrich as much as Ziebura and we like him! (Except as usual for Mina, could not say anything if she wasn't thrilled with him.) And, I suppose more to the point, respect him, too -- I mean, I definitely came out of the bio thinking he was even more competent and awesome than I thought he was before reading it (and I thought he was pretty competent then).
I fiiiiinally finished, only several days after mildred :P :)
So, yeah, you were right that the best stuff is at the very end and it's depressing up until that point, but I'm not sorry I skimmed through the rest of it (even if none of the politics or military stuff took).
-Because I am such a Lehndorff stan, of course the most tragic (tragifarcical? farcitragedy?) was when Lehndorff came to visit and Heinrich was like "man, that was boring, all we could do was relive memories, which wasn't much fun." Poor Lehndorff! I guess they must not have had much in common at that point, though, so I get that... but still. *sparkly hearts Lehndorff*
-So I also thought it was hilarious how Marie de la Roche Aymon and Louis had this affair and everyone almost ended up dueling each other -- it's hilarious because, like the text says, she had to share her husband with Heinrich, after all! :P (She was the one who was the awesome character later in life, right?)
-"I think I can forget everything that has happened in the past twelve years here... I have illusions about the past." Well, I guess, points for being honest? But seriously, that was a pretty awful twelve years, I can see why, although before then wasn't exactly a bed of roses, he might choose to remember those over hte past twelve years.
-selenak, thank you for synopsizing the bit where Heinrich reads Wilhelmine's memoirs, because the translation was not good there and it's such a wrenching bit
-I had somehow forgotten by this point that Heinrich's name is actually Friedrich, like everyone else in the entire saga, lol!
But really, poor Heinrich. I feel like if he'd been incompetent that would have been one thing, but to be hyper-competent and not be able to use it, that just seems really awful.
I really enjoyed this, thank you selenak for explaining it to me and mildred_of_midgard for keeping me on track with reading it :)
Lehndorff: I know, I reacted the same way when first reading this. However, since then I've been able some comforting rationalizing and contextualizing via finding out more which I hope will be of help. First of all, it was one cranky remark in a letter about a visit, not an overall retrospective/goodbye. After 50 years, all friends have moments where they just get on each other's nerves. My mother has been known to say "good lord, that was boring, please tell me if I'm llike that!" about a conversation with some of her old friends, too, but she still would and does do everything for them if they need her. (Case in point, one of my parents' oldest friends in both senses of the word old who was already going senile before the Coronavirus but now has even forgotten his wife has been dead since nine years. :( :( :( )
Secondly, it always pays to look at what Heinrich is doing in addition to what he's saying. And simultanous to before, during and after this visit, he lets Lehndorff and his family live for free in his Berlin town residence. (Reason: Lehndorff had sold his own place in Berlin years ago, since he's been living mostly in East Prussia, but now the boys are grown up and starting in their careers and he wants to be close to them, but getting a house in late 1790s Berlin is awfully expensive, hence Heinrich to the rescue.) Also, he keeps writing to Lehndorff till the end of his life (Lehndorff outlives Heinrich). An essay in a painting catalogue about the Lehndorff family portrait even mentions Heinrich inviting him to Wusterhausen in 1800, which is after the cranky letter from 1799. So: comforting context.
(She was the one who was the awesome character later in life, right?)
Yes, she was the excentric old lady Fontane described, "the last survivor of the Prince Heinrich era" who still talked fondly about him. (And died herself a Rokoko death by cat bite and subsequent infection.)
I had somehow forgotten by this point that Heinrich's name is actually Friedrich, like everyone else in the entire saga, lol!
It's the reason why his tag at A03 is awfully long. For some reason, Wilhelmine by contrast was spared getting listed with all her first names, thankfully.
"I think I can forget everything that has happened in the past twelve years here... I have illusions about the past." Well, I guess, points for being honest? But seriously, that was a pretty awful twelve years, I can see why, although before then wasn't exactly a bed of roses, he might choose to remember those over hte past twelve years.
Quite. I mean, he only would have admitted it very begrudgingly, but if you'd asked him then to choose between living in the Fritz era (or eras, any of those 40 plus years) of his life versus living in the post Fritz years, it's clear what he'd have picked.
But really, poor Heinrich. I feel like if he'd been incompetent that would have been one thing, but to be hyper-competent and not be able to use it, that just seems really awful.
It makes me so angry when older writers like Pangels are like "..and then he deservedly died a bitter old man who wasted his life without anyone caring about him and he brought it on himself, too", because a) he died surrounded by people who cared, b) that he could not use all his abilities had not been his fault, and c) keeping all that frustration in mind, it wouldn't have been surprising if he'd been suicidal and misanthropic to the max, and he wasn't. He engaged with the present till the end (even if he was depressed about it), and he kept enjoying, as he always did, (French) theatre, literature and music.
<3 I am glad to see that I am not the only one sad for poor Lehndorff, and even more glad to see that it seems to not have been the rule on Heinrich's part :) And I totally get what you're saying about complaining about loved ones once in a while -- I may be guilty of the same sort of thing on occasion :) That is a lot of comforting context and I am very glad that they seem to have been good friends to the end and that you were able to reassure me of that <3
(but man, Ziebura, what about catering to my interests of gossipy sensationalism and also the romance with Lehndorff?? everyone should cater to those)
a) he died surrounded by people who cared, b) that he could not use all his abilities had not been his fault, and c) keeping all that frustration in mind, it wouldn't have been surprising if he'd been suicidal and misanthropic to the max, and he wasn't. He engaged with the present till the end (even if he was depressed about it), and he kept enjoying, as he always did, (French) theatre, literature and music.
Oh! Yes, I meant to comment on (a) as well -- I do really like how Ziebura makes it clear that in terms of fulfilling relationships he did have a bunch, and he loved and was loved (even if maybe those relationships were not necessarily romantic ones, except for the Comte). <3 And yeah, that's a good point that he was (very understandably) depressed sometimes, but he did engage with life.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: ~Ch 14-15
Date: 2020-05-23 08:03 am (UTC)Henckel his AD early in the 7 Years War (requested Transfer because of Kalckreuth but remained Heinrich's friend; Heinrich after his death supported his widow and Kids (hence, btw, also the reason why he organizes the wedding of the daugher)
Henckel von Donnersmarck the son: said son, wrote memoirs mostly dealing with the Napoleonic wars, but also containing a few old age Heinrich stories
Henckel the Grandson: published granddad's war time Diary and the letters of the Princes to Granddad
HvD the son's stories about Heinrich as an excentric old Gentleman were quoted/paraphrased by both Ziebura and Christian von Krockow in his Fritz and Heinrich double portrait, and they sounded affectionate there, but in the original there's an unmistakable note of contempt going with it, due to the occasional remarks like "no one would have believed that THIS was the brother of the great Friedrich, the hero of the Seven Years War", with his not wearing any manly uniforms but French ancien regime clothing, foppish wigs, and general Francophile cultural taste. (Why no, HvD Fils never met Fritz in person.) :(
Mind you, the wedding itself is another example of fraternal parallels, since it's Heinrich venting his autocratic vein but, due to him not being a monarch, in a way that's harmless and charming (except for the groom). You can bet that if anyone had dared to show up late at any of the weddings Fritz had arranged, not only would the wedding have gone ahead regardless, too, but there'd been hell to pay later.
Mind you, the stories are still good; HvD fils is also the source for Heinrich pretending not to speak German but when the hour was late and wine had been drunk would switch to "Das will ich Ihnen auch noch sagen" mid argument, for example. And it's a very generational reflecting the big cultural shift that had taken place. But still.
FW3: don't remember exactly, since I've only read that part once. But as far as I recall, FW3 didn't disagree with Heinrich's big three interior Reform Memoranda but didn't follow up on them, either, until Freiherr von Stein years later said the same Thing.
Re: ~Ch 14-15
Date: 2020-05-25 04:16 am (UTC)Ch 16: the end
Date: 2020-05-25 05:29 am (UTC)So, yeah, you were right that the best stuff is at the very end and it's depressing up until that point, but I'm not sorry I skimmed through the rest of it (even if none of the politics or military stuff took).
-Because I am such a Lehndorff stan, of course the most tragic (tragifarcical? farcitragedy?) was when Lehndorff came to visit and Heinrich was like "man, that was boring, all we could do was relive memories, which wasn't much fun." Poor Lehndorff! I guess they must not have had much in common at that point, though, so I get that... but still. *sparkly hearts Lehndorff*
-So I also thought it was hilarious how Marie de la Roche Aymon and Louis had this affair and everyone almost ended up dueling each other -- it's hilarious because, like the text says, she had to share her husband with Heinrich, after all! :P (She was the one who was the awesome character later in life, right?)
-"I think I can forget everything that has happened in the past twelve years here... I have illusions about the past." Well, I guess, points for being honest? But seriously, that was a pretty awful twelve years, I can see why, although before then wasn't exactly a bed of roses, he might choose to remember those over hte past twelve years.
-selenak, thank you for synopsizing the bit where Heinrich reads Wilhelmine's memoirs, because the translation was not good there and it's such a wrenching bit
-I had somehow forgotten by this point that Heinrich's name is actually Friedrich, like everyone else in the entire saga, lol!
But really, poor Heinrich. I feel like if he'd been incompetent that would have been one thing, but to be hyper-competent and not be able to use it, that just seems really awful.
I really enjoyed this, thank you
Re: Ch 16: the end
Date: 2020-05-25 06:51 am (UTC)Secondly, it always pays to look at what Heinrich is doing in addition to what he's saying. And simultanous to before, during and after this visit, he lets Lehndorff and his family live for free in his Berlin town residence. (Reason: Lehndorff had sold his own place in Berlin years ago, since he's been living mostly in East Prussia, but now the boys are grown up and starting in their careers and he wants to be close to them, but getting a house in late 1790s Berlin is awfully expensive, hence Heinrich to the rescue.) Also, he keeps writing to Lehndorff till the end of his life (Lehndorff outlives Heinrich). An essay in a painting catalogue about the Lehndorff family portrait even mentions Heinrich inviting him to Wusterhausen in 1800, which is after the cranky letter from 1799. So: comforting context.
(She was the one who was the awesome character later in life, right?)
Yes, she was the excentric old lady Fontane described, "the last survivor of the Prince Heinrich era" who still talked fondly about him. (And died herself a Rokoko death by cat bite and subsequent infection.)
I had somehow forgotten by this point that Heinrich's name is actually Friedrich, like everyone else in the entire saga, lol!
It's the reason why his tag at A03 is awfully long. For some reason, Wilhelmine by contrast was spared getting listed with all her first names, thankfully.
"I think I can forget everything that has happened in the past twelve years here... I have illusions about the past." Well, I guess, points for being honest? But seriously, that was a pretty awful twelve years, I can see why, although before then wasn't exactly a bed of roses, he might choose to remember those over hte past twelve years.
Quite. I mean, he only would have admitted it very begrudgingly, but if you'd asked him then to choose between living in the Fritz era (or eras, any of those 40 plus years) of his life versus living in the post Fritz years, it's clear what he'd have picked.
But really, poor Heinrich. I feel like if he'd been incompetent that would have been one thing, but to be hyper-competent and not be able to use it, that just seems really awful.
It makes me so angry when older writers like Pangels are like "..and then he deservedly died a bitter old man who wasted his life without anyone caring about him and he brought it on himself, too", because a) he died surrounded by people who cared, b) that he could not use all his abilities had not been his fault, and c) keeping all that frustration in mind, it wouldn't have been surprising if he'd been suicidal and misanthropic to the max, and he wasn't. He engaged with the present till the end (even if he was depressed about it), and he kept enjoying, as he always did, (French) theatre, literature and music.
Re: Ch 16: the end
Date: 2020-05-27 04:58 am (UTC)(but man, Ziebura, what about catering to my interests of gossipy sensationalism and also the romance with Lehndorff?? everyone should cater to those)
a) he died surrounded by people who cared, b) that he could not use all his abilities had not been his fault, and c) keeping all that frustration in mind, it wouldn't have been surprising if he'd been suicidal and misanthropic to the max, and he wasn't. He engaged with the present till the end (even if he was depressed about it), and he kept enjoying, as he always did, (French) theatre, literature and music.
Oh! Yes, I meant to comment on (a) as well -- I do really like how Ziebura makes it clear that in terms of fulfilling relationships he did have a bunch, and he loved and was loved (even if maybe those relationships were not necessarily romantic ones, except for the Comte). <3 And yeah, that's a good point that he was (very understandably) depressed sometimes, but he did engage with life.
And I was also going to say, he likes Gluck :D