Frederick the Great discussion post 15

[cahn]

...I have nothing clever to say here, just really pleased this is still going :)
rheinsberg

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A Marwitz question for the Rheinsberg salon

[iberiandoctor]

Hey, I have a question for the Rheinsberg salon!

Someone cited to me this example of honourable soldierly behaviour: this Marwitz, who apparently refused to sack castles dishonourably for Fritz and Henri. On his tombstone, this is engraved: Chose disfavour where obedience did not bring honour.

How is he related to our beauteous, potentially veneral-diseased, page Marwitz? Did you guys already discuss this and I missed it?

Re: A Marwitz question for the Rheinsberg salon

[mildred_of_midgard]

Good question! In fact, it's such an important topic to our gossipy sensationalist selves that we've discussed it at least three times. :D Most recently last week, but since we were on that occasion repeating a previous conversation precisely because I had forgotten about it in the several-month-long inundation of Fritzian information, missing it is quite understandable.

Short answer: no one knows. We've tried and tried to find out, but no luck.

Otherwise praiseworthy Heinrich biographer Ziebura asserts as fact that they're the same person, but selenak and I don't buy it, and we certainly don't agree it can be responsibly stated as fact. What is known of famous Marwitz's life contradicts what Lehndorff tells us about page Marwitz, assuming Lehndorff is reliable. (Actually, Lehndorff's 1907 editor also says they're the same person, but we still don't believe it. We think people just can't resist making the identification.)

Furthermore, Ziebura packs some other dicey claims into her same paragraph, namely:

- Marwitz was Heinrich's first love. Maybe! But, evidence?

- Marwitz couldn't have had gonorrhea or been cheating on Heinrich, because he had such a respectable military career later!

Me and selenak: You forgot about Seydlitz! Much more military prowess, famed general, honored by Heinrich on the same obelisk, total womanizer, died of advanced syphilis! The one (sexual morals) has nothing to do with the other (military performance and courage).

I should add that in that Marwitz fic selenak wrote you, she managed to write the entire thing without once giving him a first name (that isn't a pseudonym), precisely because we don't have a first name for him, nor do we know where he fits into the family tree. I thought that was clever. Also impressively scholarly for a fanfic. ;)

Two points on the castle-sacking:

- German wiki tells me that there's been a recent scholarly claim that this story is largely apocryphal. I haven't examined the documentary evidence and couldn't say one way or the other, just putting that out there.

- Either way, I don't think it would have been Heinrich ordering the sacking. Heinrich and Fritz were at odds as to how you treat civilians (well, and soldiers, too), with Heinrich way toning down the war crimes relative to Fritz. If I'm recalling correctly, Fritz once put someone else in charge of getting "contributions" out of the Saxon population, because Heinrich wasn't being ruthless enough.

Re: A Marwitz question for the Rheinsberg salon

[selenak]

Let me add to what Mildred told you that we have three Marwitzes were, with

- Page! Marwitz. No first name given by either Fritz in his letters or Lehndorff in his diary entry

- Quatermaster!(in the 7 Years War) Marwitz: No first name given, but a year of birth, which would make him 23 at the time of the Heinrich/Fritz/Page Story, which is quite old for a page, and also would make him older than both Heinrich and Lehndorff, making it odd that Lehndorff refers to him as "Young" Marwitz. Also given: a year of death, 1759, in the inscription honoring him on the Rheinsberg Obelisk erected by Heinrich. Ziebura thinks he's identical with Marwitz the page anyway. Whom he definitely CANNOT be identical with, however is:

- famous "where obedience did not bring Honor" Marwitz whom you just linked. That Marwitz resurvived the 7 Years War and died years later, so he's definitely not Obelisk!Marwitz. He, too, could technically have been Page!Marwitz, but the problem here is again he, too would have been old for a page in 1746, and also we have his careeer detailed, and it doesn't include "served as page and then as guard for the King in 1746".

The castle this last Marwitz refused to sack was Hubertusburg, one of the famous and beautiful Saxon palaces, and no, Heinrich had nothing to do with that. The order came from Fritz. Supposedly in retaliation for the plundering of Charlottenburg. The guy who did sack Hubertusburg when Famous!Marwitz refused (according to the story) was a Fritz fave named Lentulus. (Btw: that Lentulus sacked Hubertusburg is not under dispute, that part is historical certainty.) About whom British envoy Andrew Mitchell has nothing good to say a few years later:

The King of Prussia, making a sort of mystery of the person or persons he intends to send to Petersbourg, had demanded of me blank passports, which I have granted; it may, therefore, be necessary to apprize you of the persons I have heard named for that com mission. The first is Baron Goltz, a young gentleman of a fair character, and well spoke of by every body; I am acquainted with him, and have given him a letter for you, in case he should be named. The second is Major-General Lentulus (formerly in the Austrian service), a tall, handsome Swiss, very weak, very vain, and very indiscreet, but, which is worst of all, a servile flatterer, and capable of reporting to his master the greatest falsehoods, if he thinks they will please him. Of this I had the strongest proofs, when, in the year 1756, Lentulus was sent to England, to give an account of the battle of Lobositz (at which he was not present).
On his return into Saxony, he made a most absurd report to the King, his master, concerning the then state of affairs in England, which, after many months labour and infinite pains, I had at last the good fortune totally to annihilate. - Since that time I have done everything in my power to prevent his making a second journey to England, because I thought it of importance to have honest and fair men named for that commission. As to the General's military qualifications, if you will believe his own story, he is the hero of the army; but, unhappily, the army are of a very different opinion. He has indeed distinguished himself by plundering in Saxony, and was lately in disgrace with the King his master, but recovered ground again by the irresistible power of abject flattery, more fatal to kings than daggers and poison.

In a typical irony, Hubertusburg (cleaned out and ramsacked) ended up the Location where the Austrian/Prussian peace negotiations were concluded. Hence "Peace of Hubertusburg").

Re: A Marwitz question for the Rheinsberg salon

[mildred_of_midgard]

Bad detective Mildred! Yes, I was conflating Ziebura's Marwitz and Schmidt-Lötzen's Marwitz, both of whom were 23 in 1746, but only one of whom is on the obelisk. Thank you for clearing that up.

This fandom, I swear. Why does everyone have the same name? (I know why.) :P

Re: A Marwitz question for the Rheinsberg salon

[iberiandoctor]

Thank you both, and please know I cherish your gossipy sensationalist but also meticulously analytical selves. I think I was part of the early Marwitz discussions and vaguely agreed that it was likely there were three Marwitzes in question rather than beauteous page Marwitz being one of the other two (Obelisk Marwitz and Refusal-to-Sack Marwitz).

Glad to see the salon is flourishing and as active as ever! Sending my love, as always ♥

Re: A Marwitz question for the Rheinsberg salon

[selenak]

Check out my latest comment below. I actually found a new Marwitz reference, and it turns out that page Marwitz = Obelisk Quatermaster Marwitz after all!

Re: A Marwitz question for the Rheinsberg salon

[mildred_of_midgard]

I'm so delighted by the way that the longer we stick around in this fandom, the more we uncover. :D