cahn | Frederick the Great post links

More Frederick the Great (henceforth "Fritz") and surrounding ~~spinoffs~~ history! Clearly my purpose in life is now revealed: it is to encourage

mildred_of_midgard and

selenak to talk to me about Frederick the Great and associated/tangential European history. I am having such a great time here! Collating some links in this post:

* selenak's post on Frederick the Great as a TV show with associated fandom; a great place to start for the general history

* I have given up indexing all posts, here is the tag of discussion posts. Someday when I actually have time maybe I'll do a "best of."

Some links that have come up in the course of this discussion (and which I am putting here partially for my own benefit because in particular I haven't had time to watch the movies ~~because still mainlining Nirvana in Fire~~):
Fritz' sister Wilhelmine's tell-all tabloidy memoirs (English translation); this is Part I; the text options have been imperfectly OCR'd so be aware of that (NOTE 11-6-19: THIS IS A BOWDLERIZED TEXT, I WILL COME BACK WITH A BETTER LINK)
Part II of Wilhelmine's memoirs (English translation)
A dramatization of Frederick the Great's story, English subtitles
Mein Name ist Bach, Movie of Frederick the Great and J.S. Bach, with subtitles Some discussion of the subtitles in the thread here (also scroll down)
2017 miniseries about Maria Theresia, with subtitles and better translation of one scene in comments

ETA:
Miniseries of Peter the Great, IN ENGLISH, apparently reasonably historically solid
ETA 10-22-19
Website with letters from and to Wilhelmine during her 1754/1755 journey through France and Italy, as well as a few letters about Wilhelmine, in the original French, in a German translation, and in facsimile
University of Trier site where the full works of Friedrich in the original French and German have been transcribed, digitized, and uploaded:
30 volumes of writings and personal correspondence
46 volumes of political correspondence
Fritz and Wilhelmine's correspondence (vol 27_1)
ETA 10-28-19
Der Thronfolger (German, no subtitles; explanation of action in the comment here)
ETA 11-6-19
Memoirs of Stanisław August Poniatowski, dual Polish and French translation
ETA 1-14-20
Our Royal Librarian Mildred has collated some documentation, including google translate versions of the Trier letters above (see the "Correspondence" folder)!

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From:

cahn

More later, but I have been thinking about Yuletide this week too :P

I volunteer to nominate and request Maria Theresia (unpopular opinion in this fandom perhaps, but at this point I just want ALL THE FIC about her, whether with Fritz or not, but OMG YES SECRET SUMMIT BETWEEN FRITZ AND MT allllll the popcorn forever), Elisabeth Christine, and Wilhelmine. I would also be happy to nominate Joseph the rational fanboy :D (or anyone else)

mildred_of_midgard, you should definitely nominate four characters :D (I know you are unlikely to participate in YT proper, but as someone who has a vested interest in what other people request/write it totally counts!!)

ETA: OMG can you imagine Joseph arranging the meeting. AHAHAHAHAHA okay I may be sold on nominating Joseph.

Edited Date: 2019-09-19 04:21 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

HAHAHAHAAAAA this whole thing is awesome. No, no, not unpopular opinion! MT fanfic would be great even if she's not my all-time fave. Especially the whole Joseph - MT - Fritz trio, that would be hilarious.

I know you are unlikely to participate in YT proper, but as someone who has a vested interest in what other people request/write it totally counts!!

Indeed, I love the idea of Yuletide and love what comes out of it, and always want people to write fic about my historical faves, but I've never been able to participate, sadly. And that's not going to change this year. I've been told that while you *can* nominate if you don't plan to write, YT etiquette is that you shouldn't?

If not, I'm happy to help nominate, and my #1 character (outside of the obvious 3) I'd want that you two haven't already mentioned would be Peter Keith. I keep working him into my escape attempt AUs. :P

From: (Anonymous)

Peter Keith! Good choice.

Another sudden thought: I seem to recall last year Yuletide changed the rules - previously you could nominate four characters per fandom, last year only three? Or am I misremembering? In any event, what are the rules re: characters this year?

And never mind not participating yourself, writers are grateful to have more characters to choose from, so you'd be doing everyone a service.

Another Thing: last year I think the relevant fandom was called "Prussian 18th Century RPF". Which is servicable, but since we're aiming for a more international cast, maybe we should call it something that includes Austrians like MT and Joseph, and born German-turned-Russians like Catherine? "Seven-Years-War-RPF" would limit the time frame too much, though, alas. Any other ideas?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Peter Keith! Good choice.

He has so much ship and post-ship friendly ex potential, as well as literary potential as a foil to Katte. <33

I'm only vaguely familiar with the Yuletide procedure (as noted, I only read the fic once it comes out), but according to the AO3 description for 2018, "Participants can nominate a maximum of 3 fandoms that they want to be available for Yuletide, and a maximum of 4 characters per fandom." Also, as far as I can tell, the fandom in question was "18th Century RPF," which is how I've seen historical RPF handled every year that I can remember, namely by century. I was assuming that's how we'd be doing ours.

Though personally, "Frederick the Great and his contemporaries" is my fandom. ;)

The AO3 profile also says "You may nominate without signing up, although the mods ask that people only nominate if they're seriously considering participation." :/

From:

selenak

Just saw that I appear to have posted anonymously in my replies? Sorry, Cahn.

...though the mods ask that people only nominate if they’re seriously considering participation.” :/

Ah, but what would the author of the Anti-Machiavell would want you to do?

Edited Date: 2019-09-19 08:01 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Ah, but what would the author of the Anti-Machiavell would want you to do?

This argument is irrefutable. Really, I'm convinced. I mean, if I'm going to talk the talk about over-identifying with him, I've got to walk the walk!

Also, I'm dying and tears are coming out of my eyes and I can barely see the screen for laughing.

Finally, in keeping with the theme of "find your historical legal claim to Silesia after the fact," I find that a definition of "participate" includes "If you’d still like to participate, you can sign on to be a pinch hitter, join the IRC chat to encourage writers or become a hippo, offer to be a beta reader or write Treats for people." Since I would seriously consider doing at least one of those things (health permitting), I think I get to nominate.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Okay, so I volunteer to nominate (but not request, because I'm not signing up to write, alas):

Fritz, Katte, Keith, and one other character. Could be FW, but I don't actually need FW in my fic. Fuck FW. :P Happy to take one for the team here and nominate whoever we collectively decide on.

From:

cahn

Ok, both of you, I am laughing SO HARD.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Right? That line was too good.

From:

cahn

(psst, you're posting anonymously again below, so I'll respond to this one.)

Fandom: So I still wonder if we can't do something like 18thC European Royalty & Nobility, and explain in an evidence post that all of them are connected politically and personally. However, it would prooooobably still be closer to the spirit of the rules (and more likely to go through as a single fandom) to call it something like "Frederick the Great and Frenemies" :P And, as mildred says, then we could nominate Voltaire! Although Imentioned splitting up into two fandoms below, and I still think this is a possibility we should keep in mind in case there are mod problems, I think we should try to keep them together unless the mods make us separate. (I mean, Wilhelmine counts for both!)

Characters: I agree that Elisabeth Christine and Voltaire are unlikely to be much help for your particular scenario, but that scenario (amazing though it is) isn't all I want to request! :P :)

My requests (that I know about right now): I'm going to say in my letter that AND matching is partially optional. I'd like to request Maria Theresia, Elisabeth Christine, Wilhelmine, and Fritz (argh, only being able to request four!)

Things I would be happy receiving:
-your scenario with Maria Theresia and Fritz having a Sekrit Meeting, allllllll the popcorn, bonus points if Joseph finagles the meeting but not required
-Anything about Maria Theresia, honestly
-how did Elisabeth Christine navigate having Fritz as a husband, anyway
-Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine and Fritz in the same room: disaster or BIG disaster? Discuss.
-Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine liking each other so that Fritz decided not to talk to Wilhelmine any more: there's GOT to be a fic in this, right?? (I know the most rational explanation is that Fritz is... Fritz, but COME ON, this is what we have fic for) (I don't ship MT and W, mind you, I just... really like it that they got along!)

-even though I don't have slots to request Voltaire, bonus points if writer makes up scathing Voltaire quotes and/or quotes actual scathing Voltaire quotes

Hmm, the more I think about this the more I think you may be right that Elisabeth Christine doesn't quite fit with the rest of everyone. Let me think about this. Hmm, on second thought maybe I request Maria Theresia, Fritz, and Wilhelmine, and make it absolutely AND :D

:D

From:

mildred_of_midgard

"Frederick the Great: Friends, Enemies, and Frenemies" :P

You have many awesome ideas. :D

I just want my gay ship, but I can't sign up, so this is sad. On the plus side, I was lying in bed just now trying to sleep (you can see how that worked out), came up with an idea for a fic, wanted two events in Fritz's life to take place in the same year but couldn't remember more than they were both from the 1740s, decided I was willing to fudge the chronology for fiction, got up, discovered not only that they're both from 1747 (woot!), but ALSO that I was going to link one event to Classical mythology, and it turns out Fritz ALREADY linked it to that exact Classical myth, because he's awesome like that and he and I are in the same fandom. So at least I can keep scribbling away at my own Fritz/Katte fics. <3

Meanwhile, I will enjoy and support whatever you two come up with even if it's not my tragic ship! Because all these characters are awesome.

From:

cahn

I'm sorry, I always do this! I always go into a fandom and end up wanting gen fic that's not about the juggernaut pairing :P :)

BUT! don't fret about this! At least, don't fret yet. :) I believe that Friedrich II and Katte have been nominated for the past... two years?... by someone who wasn't me (obviously) or (I think)

selenak, and Fritz/Katte was definitely requested and written for last year by someone who wasn't either of us. So there are other people out there who are interested! I plan to make a canon pimping post on it when that yuletide post comes out (unless selenak wants to do it), and I'm betting we can flush more fans out of the woodwork to request your ship :D

Re: Yuletide ideas and the Other Royal Murder Dad

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2019-09-20 04:41 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Yuletide ideas and the Other Royal Murder Dad

From:

cahn - Date: 2019-09-20 04:44 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Yuletide ideas and the Other Royal Murder Dad

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2019-09-20 04:49 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I have another comment outlined with more anecdotes for you, ranging from #LifeGoals to TOTALLY NUTS, but it seems tonight I'm instead working on the above, aka a *second* short, morbid, mostly canon-compliant fic about Fritz, Katte, ghosts, and the burial site at Sanssouci. Because one fic about that wasn't enough. Look, the reason I can't ever do YT (or any other fic exchange, or challenge, or prompt) is that I don't tell the muse what to do, the muse tells me what to do.

Anyway, stay tuned!

Re: Yuletide ideas and the Other Royal Murder Dad

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2019-09-22 03:07 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Yuletide ideas and the Other Royal Murder Dad

From:

cahn - Date: 2019-09-22 03:17 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I just want to say that I have this huge grudge against biographer Carlyle for not only not shipping my ship--which, fair enough!--but for being an anti. And Carlyle specifically because of my own personal history with this fandom.

In high school, I read voraciously (god knows, none of this was covered in class) on Fritz, but was interested in the military history and magnificent bastardy aspects, not the interpersonal relations.

At the end of high school, I had moved into another fandom and discovered slash, but since I can only do one fandom at a time, it was too late to go back and start slashing Fritz.

For the next twenty or so years, I was never deeply in 18th century or Fritz fandom again, until three months ago. I only sporadically spent an hour here or there making up stories about Fritz in my head, without doing research, just based on what I remembered. (Realize that everything I've been regurgitating here is a combination of a couple of years of reading in high school, a 20-year lacuna, then 4-8 weeks of refreshing myself in summer 2019 and taking advantage of internet resources on Katte. And internet only because of the new physical disability that I will never stop complaining about.)

But, even in my days of not being in this fandom, I did want to ship Fritz/Katte. Badly. But being deeply immersed in other fandoms, I was unmotivated to go getting my hands on sources. And, due to repeated moves on a low budget, I had gotten rid of my history book collection, seeing as how I hadn't been in that fandom in a gazillion years. So all I had was an electronic copy of the public domain biography of Fritz by Carlyle, written in the 1860s.

And I have multiple memories, years apart, of trying to get material for my ship from Carlyle, and being defeated by his "anti" attitude toward my ship, which basically consists of repeating Wilhelmine, either in paraphrase or direct quotation at length. Behold.

"Poor young man, [Fritz] has got into a disastrous course; consorts chiefly with debauched young fellows, as Lieutenants Katte, Keith, and others of their stamp, who lead him on ways not pleasant to his Father, nor conformable to the Laws of this Universe."

"Of Lieutenant von Katte,— a short stout young fellow, with black eyebrows, pock-marked face, and rather dissolute manners,— we shall not fail to hear."

"A second favorite, and a much more dangerous, succeeded Keith. This was a young man of the name of Katte, Captain-Lieutenant in the regiment GENS-D'ARMES."

Then he repeats the entire passage from Wilhelmine, which you've read, including the "His physiognomy was rather disagreeable than otherwise. A pair of thick black eyebrows almost covered the eyes of him; his look had in it something ominous, presage of the fate he met with: a tawny skin, torn by small-pox, increased his ugliness. He affected the freethinker, and carried libertinism to excess; a great deal of ambition and headlong rashness accompanied this vice. A dangerous adviser here in the Berlin element, with lightnings going! Such a favorite was not the man to bring back my Brother from his follies."

"The maternal heart and Wilhelmina's are grieved to see Lieutenant Katte so much in his confidence— could wish him a wiser councillor in such predicaments and emergencies! Katte is greatly flattered by the Prince's confidence; even brags of it in society, with his foolish loose tongue. Poor youth, he is of dissolute ways; has plenty of it 'unwise intellect,' little of the 'wise' kind; and is still under the years of discretion."

[After the failed escape attempt] "The same post brought an order to the Colonel of the Gerns-d'Armes to put that Lieutenant Katte of his under close confinement:— we hope the thoughtless young fellow has already got out of the way? He is getting his saddle altered: fettling about this and that; does not consider what danger he is in."

He gets some pity for being young, foolish, and loyal, that's all.

Now, I am far from saying that we have to paint Katte and young Fritz as perfect in all ways. Among other things, they made some seriously bad choices around the escape plan! But my ship is my ship and it's for a reason.

So I always went "meh" after flipping through this chapter in Carlyle, was annoyed at what comes across as reflexes of victim-blaming and homophobic mindsets, and went back to kind of vaguely background shipping them without too much detail. Occasionally, I would be like, "And in some AU there was a successful escape attempt, yay, and they lived happily ever after. The end."

Only in my very recent re-perusal of the sources and examination of some new sources did I get enough material for the ship to set sail properly.

And while I should refrain from spending too much money I don't have on books I can't read, this week I did buy a couple used paperbacks for a few dollars each, one of which was Goldsmith's. I can at least use them as references as needed, even if I can't read them cover-to-cover.

And by flipping through the obligatory escape attempt chapter, I discovered that Goldsmith, despite writing in 1929 (!!!) ships my ship! I am willing to forgive her her various claims and omissions that were very common a hundred years ago but which don't stand up to more recent thorough examinations of the documentary evidence, because she ships my ship!

Check this out.

"Rumors of his attachment [to Keith] finally reached the King. Such affairs were by no means uncommon in the century of Louis XV, but they were decidedly out of place at the Court of Frederick William." [!! Her whole attitude is "Fritz was gay and I'm cool with that, deal with it."]

"Frederick's attachment to Keith had been a mere episode, but his friendship with Katte was not a schoolboy's passing fancy; it was deep love and friendship." [!!! <333]

"Katte was the son of a general in Frederick William's army. His ancestors had been Prussian officers for generations, but the military life had never appealed to him. Even Wilhelmine, who disliked him because she was afraid of the disaster which this friendship might mean for her brother, had to admit that Katte was 'well read, intelligent, and that he had savoir faire.' He had studied law in Berlin and had traveled all over Europe, but in the end he had been forced into the army; for one of his class in Prussia there was no future in any but a military career. He would have preferred the life of a scholar, but he was not strong enough to oppose so radically the traditions of his family. Katte was widely read and very well informed for a man of his age and class. He was witty and entertaining. He stimulated Frederick's imagination. He was not good-looking--his heavy eyebrows met over the bridge of a large nose, and he was badly pockmarked--but his great charm of manner apparently caused people to forget his unattractive face.

"Katte, in turn, was devoted to Frederick. Although the young officer had abandoned all hope of any other life, he still rebelled inwardly against the army. It gave him tremendous satisfaction to encourage Frederick's revolt against his father's regime. This hopeless rebellion against the Prussian military system was the chief bond between the two. They had a hate in common: Frederick's father and all he stood for." [Not my interpretation at all, granted, but perfectly possible and an interesting take.]

"Katte helped Frederick to continue his non-military interests in many ways. He smuggled forbidden books into the Prince's apartments, and secretly arranged flute lessons at regular intervals. During these lessons the faithful Katte always kept watch outside Frederick's door, and warned him if he heard the unexpected approach of Frederick William.

"Frederick's allowance was so small that he could afford neither books nor lessons in flute-playing. Katte seemed to know everyone in Berlin, and he easily arranged loans with a number of wealthy merchants." [Insert secret library description.]

[After the failed escape attempt] "The king wanted to catch Katte unwarned. Undoubtedly, however, when Wilhelmine told him of this letter from her father, Katte knew that he would, inevitably, be involved; that he would share Frederick's final punishment if he stayed in Berlin. His furlough had begun. He was free to leave Berlin at any time, but he did not go. Katte was neither a coward nor a weakling, and he loved Frederick. He could not make up his mind to let his friend face Frederick William's wrath alone. Finally, one morning the King's courier arrived in Berlin, and it was rumored that Katte was about to be arrested. He was a popular young man, and by noon some of his his friends had informed him of his coming arrest. Even his colonel sympathized with Katte, and wanted to give the young officer a chance to get away. The arrest was postponed, therefore, until late in the evening. The colonel fully expected that Katte would have left by then, but he was awaiting the officers in his rooms when they arrived.

"During the day Katte had been busy. He had sent the Queen a sealed case with all his letters from Frederick, as well as copies of Frederick's secret messages to England. These documents compromised the Queen as well as Frederick, and it would have been disastrous for her if Frederick William had found them."

"Katte, alone in his cell, not far from Frederick's, hoped for many weeks that his life would be spared. All the time he thought more of Frederick than he did of himself."

[Insert his final letter to his grandfather.] "No, Katte was no coward and no weakling. On the day of his execution he said to Major Schenk, who, much against his will, was ordered by Frederick William to take charge of the execution, 'I die for a Prince whom I love, and I comfort myself with the thought that my death will be the greatest possible proof of my devotion to him.' Wilhelmine, usually so ready with sarcasm, has nothing to say about Katte's last talk with Schenk. She simply records what he told her, word for word. Clearly there was nothing for her to add."

"When he recognized Katte, [Fritz] went almost mad, and knocked his head frantically against the iron bars which separated him from his friend.

"'Forgive me, my dear Katte,' was all he could say again and again.

"The gallant Katte, rising to this last occasion, looked up at Frederick, smiled, and said:

"'Death for such a charming Prince is indeed sweet.'"

Then Goldsmith writes about Fritz's roaring twenties: "[Random woman who Fritz het-posed about]: She has caused his biographers much racking of brains. Some, who are very respectable, wanting to forget or ignore his gay life in Dresden or his friendships with Keith and Katte, speak of Frau von Wreech as his 'first love', but most of them agree that his love for the lady, who must indeed have been very charming, was purely platonic. But I have grown suspicious, skeptical, about Frederick's relations with women...I have wondered whether...gossip about a liaison with a woman of her type would have been welcomed by his father...I do not think Frederick would have announced his passion for the lady had he really cared. Increasingly, as he grew older he locked his real secrets away within himself. There is no reference to Katte in his letters." Earlier on, Goldsmith has said, about Doris Ritter, "[Fritz] thought that he was in love with her, but he was mistaken. His predilection was not for her sex."

1929! Meanwhile, biographers much later in the 20th century are still going, "There was nothing unnatural about Frederick's sex drive, it was just underdeveloped," or "There's no evidence for homosexuality except one estranged and notoriously unreliable Frenchman." Only 8 years ago (!!!), Blanning's bio was notable for going, "Look, people, he was GAY. AND CAMP. Look at the evidence. Sheesh."

Man, if I had had her book instead of Carlyle's, how the history of this ship in my life might have been different. And yes, I transcribed all the Goldsmith excerpts myself, from a physical book, and my upper back is now paying the price. WORTH IT.

Also, shipping aside, I think these two sets of excerpts show just how much room for interpretation of the sources there is, and the one is not necessarily more reliable than the other (I honestly think Goldsmith, while good for <333, goes too far for nonfiction in her interpretations and puts more weight on the evidence than it will bear. Basically, like everyone else, she's presenting her headcanon as canon.). This is why I said, in a comment to one of your other posts, that I've started to read history books like novels. Thank you for your novel, Goldsmith. Ima go write some fic and not call it a bio.

Re: Tragic ship

From:

selenak - Date: 2019-10-06 01:47 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tragic ship

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2019-10-06 10:00 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tragic ship

From:

cahn - Date: 2019-10-07 05:20 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tragic ship

From:

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Re: Tragic ship

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2019-10-07 08:03 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tragic ship

From:

selenak - Date: 2019-10-07 08:05 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tragic ship

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2019-10-07 03:17 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tragic ship

From:

cahn - Date: 2019-10-07 04:48 pm (UTC) - Expand

Meanwhile, Fontane

From:

selenak - Date: 2019-10-07 08:47 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Meanwhile, Fontane

From:

cahn - Date: 2019-10-07 05:10 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

selenak

Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine liking each other so that Fritz decided not to talk to Wilhelmine any more: there's GOT to be a fic in this, right?? (I know the most rational explanation is that Fritz is... Fritz, but COME ON, this is what we have fic for) (I don't ship MT and W, mind you, I just... really like it that they got along!)

I don't blame you. Also, it's been years since I've been to the Eremitage in Bayreuth (Wilhelmine's Sanssouci) so I couldn't swear to it, but I think she even painted a miniature Portrait of Maria Theresia (or more likely MT gave her one but in any case Wilhelmine kept it among her personal possessions, not with the state stuff), which makes her "look, she's my husband's liege lady, she was just passing through!" protestations to Fritz a bit less than convincing. But then he was basically: YOU TRAITOR! so much that I figure she had to downplay it for any kind of reconciliation being possible at all. (In what few angry letters he wrote during their breakup and pre reconciliation, he kept referring to MT as yOUR FRIEND the queen of Hungary".) Anyway, yes, there's a fic in this!

(Wilhelmine and Fritz had a quarrel shortly pre her meeting with MT, too, but that one was mostly a misunderstanding. Wilhelmine's Lady in waiting, one Countess of Marwitz, was also her husband's mistress, to Wilhelmine's great distress. So she arranged a marriage for her rival. The groom was an Austrian noble (i.e. away with the Countess of Marwitz to Vienna!), which infuriated Fritz because Marwitz was a Prussian noble and thus not allowed to marry an Austrian noble without his permission. Being paranoid, he thought by arranging the marriage his sister entered a conspiracy against him. (She hadn't told him Marwitz was her husband's mistress because when does this family ever share vital Information when it's most needed? Also it hurt her pride - she was insisting her marriage was a success to him.) Post-reconciliationn, she explained what had been up with the Marwitz, and in any case by then MT had become the greater issue.

From:

cahn

(In what few angry letters he wrote during their breakup and pre reconciliation, he kept referring to MT as YOUR FRIEND the queen of Hungary".)

lol forever OH FRITZ

I think a lot of my ~FEELINGS~ here are from reading Wilhelmine's memoirs (I'm still a third through the second part, it's a bit of a rough slog here because she's now going through hard times with her family-in-law and possibly other people, none of whom I can really keep straight) and her life is just horrible in general and I just want her to have a friend!!

(She hadn't told him Marwitz was her husband's mistress because when does this family ever share vital Information when it's most needed? Also it hurt her pride - she was insisting her marriage was a success to him.)

Oh Hohenzollerns :(
Does all this happen in her memoirs? You mentioned MT shows up as the Queen of Hungary but obviously I haven't gotten there yet.

Re: Yuletide ideas and the Other Royal Murder Dad

From:

selenak - Date: 2019-09-21 06:46 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Yuletide ideas and the Other Royal Murder Dad

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2019-09-22 09:33 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Yuletide ideas and the Other Royal Murder Dad

From:

selenak - Date: 2019-09-23 09:44 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Yuletide ideas and the Other Royal Murder Dad

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2019-09-23 03:29 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Yuletide ideas and the Other Royal Murder Dad

From:

cahn - Date: 2019-09-22 11:04 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Yuletide ideas and the Other Royal Murder Dad

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2019-09-29 05:21 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

cahn

They've been trying to make the categories more restrictive. What about 18th Century European Royalty RPF?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Hmm. Would I still be able to nominate my 2 Prussian nobles?

From:

cahn

Oh right. European nobility?

...We'll have to do an evidence post. But I think that's fine. Worst thing that happens is that they split it up into Young Fritz & Friends and Older Fritz & Enemies (or whatever)

Edited Date: 2019-09-19 09:11 pm (UTC)