cahn | Frederick the Great post links

More Frederick the Great (henceforth "Fritz") and surrounding ~~spinoffs~~ history! Clearly my purpose in life is now revealed: it is to encourage

mildred_of_midgard and

selenak to talk to me about Frederick the Great and associated/tangential European history. I am having such a great time here! Collating some links in this post:

* selenak's post on Frederick the Great as a TV show with associated fandom; a great place to start for the general history

* I have given up indexing all posts, here is the tag of discussion posts. Someday when I actually have time maybe I'll do a "best of."

Some links that have come up in the course of this discussion (and which I am putting here partially for my own benefit because in particular I haven't had time to watch the movies ~~because still mainlining Nirvana in Fire~~):
Fritz' sister Wilhelmine's tell-all tabloidy memoirs (English translation); this is Part I; the text options have been imperfectly OCR'd so be aware of that (NOTE 11-6-19: THIS IS A BOWDLERIZED TEXT, I WILL COME BACK WITH A BETTER LINK)
Part II of Wilhelmine's memoirs (English translation)
A dramatization of Frederick the Great's story, English subtitles
Mein Name ist Bach, Movie of Frederick the Great and J.S. Bach, with subtitles Some discussion of the subtitles in the thread here (also scroll down)
2017 miniseries about Maria Theresia, with subtitles and better translation of one scene in comments

ETA:
Miniseries of Peter the Great, IN ENGLISH, apparently reasonably historically solid
ETA 10-22-19
Website with letters from and to Wilhelmine during her 1754/1755 journey through France and Italy, as well as a few letters about Wilhelmine, in the original French, in a German translation, and in facsimile
University of Trier site where the full works of Friedrich in the original French and German have been transcribed, digitized, and uploaded:
30 volumes of writings and personal correspondence
46 volumes of political correspondence
Fritz and Wilhelmine's correspondence (vol 27_1)
ETA 10-28-19
Der Thronfolger (German, no subtitles; explanation of action in the comment here)
ETA 11-6-19
Memoirs of Stanisław August Poniatowski, dual Polish and French translation
ETA 1-14-20
Our Royal Librarian Mildred has collated some documentation, including google translate versions of the Trier letters above (see the "Correspondence" folder)!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only | Expand All

From:

selenak

Just saw that I appear to have posted anonymously in my replies? Sorry, Cahn.

...though the mods ask that people only nominate if they’re seriously considering participation.” :/

Ah, but what would the author of the Anti-Machiavell would want you to do?

Edited Date: 2019-09-19 08:01 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Ah, but what would the author of the Anti-Machiavell would want you to do?

This argument is irrefutable. Really, I'm convinced. I mean, if I'm going to talk the talk about over-identifying with him, I've got to walk the walk!

Also, I'm dying and tears are coming out of my eyes and I can barely see the screen for laughing.

Finally, in keeping with the theme of "find your historical legal claim to Silesia after the fact," I find that a definition of "participate" includes "If you’d still like to participate, you can sign on to be a pinch hitter, join the IRC chat to encourage writers or become a hippo, offer to be a beta reader or write Treats for people." Since I would seriously consider doing at least one of those things (health permitting), I think I get to nominate.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Okay, so I volunteer to nominate (but not request, because I'm not signing up to write, alas):

Fritz, Katte, Keith, and one other character. Could be FW, but I don't actually need FW in my fic. Fuck FW. :P Happy to take one for the team here and nominate whoever we collectively decide on.

From:

cahn

Ok, both of you, I am laughing SO HARD.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Right? That line was too good.

From:

cahn

(psst, you're posting anonymously again below, so I'll respond to this one.)

Fandom: So I still wonder if we can't do something like 18thC European Royalty & Nobility, and explain in an evidence post that all of them are connected politically and personally. However, it would prooooobably still be closer to the spirit of the rules (and more likely to go through as a single fandom) to call it something like "Frederick the Great and Frenemies" :P And, as mildred says, then we could nominate Voltaire! Although Imentioned splitting up into two fandoms below, and I still think this is a possibility we should keep in mind in case there are mod problems, I think we should try to keep them together unless the mods make us separate. (I mean, Wilhelmine counts for both!)

Characters: I agree that Elisabeth Christine and Voltaire are unlikely to be much help for your particular scenario, but that scenario (amazing though it is) isn't all I want to request! :P :)

My requests (that I know about right now): I'm going to say in my letter that AND matching is partially optional. I'd like to request Maria Theresia, Elisabeth Christine, Wilhelmine, and Fritz (argh, only being able to request four!)

Things I would be happy receiving:
-your scenario with Maria Theresia and Fritz having a Sekrit Meeting, allllllll the popcorn, bonus points if Joseph finagles the meeting but not required
-Anything about Maria Theresia, honestly
-how did Elisabeth Christine navigate having Fritz as a husband, anyway
-Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine and Fritz in the same room: disaster or BIG disaster? Discuss.
-Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine liking each other so that Fritz decided not to talk to Wilhelmine any more: there's GOT to be a fic in this, right?? (I know the most rational explanation is that Fritz is... Fritz, but COME ON, this is what we have fic for) (I don't ship MT and W, mind you, I just... really like it that they got along!)

-even though I don't have slots to request Voltaire, bonus points if writer makes up scathing Voltaire quotes and/or quotes actual scathing Voltaire quotes

Hmm, the more I think about this the more I think you may be right that Elisabeth Christine doesn't quite fit with the rest of everyone. Let me think about this. Hmm, on second thought maybe I request Maria Theresia, Fritz, and Wilhelmine, and make it absolutely AND :D

:D

From:

mildred_of_midgard

"Frederick the Great: Friends, Enemies, and Frenemies" :P

You have many awesome ideas. :D

I just want my gay ship, but I can't sign up, so this is sad. On the plus side, I was lying in bed just now trying to sleep (you can see how that worked out), came up with an idea for a fic, wanted two events in Fritz's life to take place in the same year but couldn't remember more than they were both from the 1740s, decided I was willing to fudge the chronology for fiction, got up, discovered not only that they're both from 1747 (woot!), but ALSO that I was going to link one event to Classical mythology, and it turns out Fritz ALREADY linked it to that exact Classical myth, because he's awesome like that and he and I are in the same fandom. So at least I can keep scribbling away at my own Fritz/Katte fics. <3

Meanwhile, I will enjoy and support whatever you two come up with even if it's not my tragic ship! Because all these characters are awesome.

From:

cahn

I'm sorry, I always do this! I always go into a fandom and end up wanting gen fic that's not about the juggernaut pairing :P :)

BUT! don't fret about this! At least, don't fret yet. :) I believe that Friedrich II and Katte have been nominated for the past... two years?... by someone who wasn't me (obviously) or (I think)

selenak, and Fritz/Katte was definitely requested and written for last year by someone who wasn't either of us. So there are other people out there who are interested! I plan to make a canon pimping post on it when that yuletide post comes out (unless selenak wants to do it), and I'm betting we can flush more fans out of the woodwork to request your ship :D

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Haha, no worries, seriously, you are not responsible for my ship any more than I'm responsible for your gen EC fic! ;) I wasn't registering disappointment about your choices, just about my inability to sign up. (And even if I did, there'd be no guarantee this request is the one I'd get a story for anyway. *Although*, I would probably nudge it in that direction by choosing even MORE obscure historical RPF fandoms for my other requests, mwahahaha.)

And yes, I had noticed that two of my favorite Fritz/Katte fics came out of last year's YT, so my nominated characters still have hope. :D They are a very trope-y pairing, as

selenak's TV show outline highlights!

From:

cahn

Haha, true, and even if you signed up AND got a story for it, you wouldn't be able to micromanage-direct it ~~like Fritz would have done~~...

That TV show outline is TOTALLY going to go in my canon pimping post :D

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh, I spent last night entertaining myself by drafting an optional details prompt/Santa letter thingy (that I will never use, sadly), and I'll have you know it was very wide open and non-micromanage-y. :PP

YES!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I have another comment outlined with more anecdotes for you, ranging from #LifeGoals to TOTALLY NUTS, but it seems tonight I'm instead working on the above, aka a *second* short, morbid, mostly canon-compliant fic about Fritz, Katte, ghosts, and the burial site at Sanssouci. Because one fic about that wasn't enough. Look, the reason I can't ever do YT (or any other fic exchange, or challenge, or prompt) is that I don't tell the muse what to do, the muse tells me what to do.

Anyway, stay tuned!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Okay, so you toooootally can be too busy for this, or not interested in ANOTHER fic about Fritz and Katte and death, but if you wanted to beta read some 3,000 words, I would welcome your input on behalf of my intended audience (familiar with canon but not obsessed, educated but without a deep background in Classics), to tell me if I need to explain the historical and especially Classical references more, or if they're clear enough in context. :-DD

From:

cahn

LOL, I'm usually up for beta reading, at least if you don't need it in the immediate future -- although the sort of general comments you are looking for I can probably turn around by Wednesday or so. I'll PM you.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I just want to say that I have this huge grudge against biographer Carlyle for not only not shipping my ship--which, fair enough!--but for being an anti. And Carlyle specifically because of my own personal history with this fandom.

In high school, I read voraciously (god knows, none of this was covered in class) on Fritz, but was interested in the military history and magnificent bastardy aspects, not the interpersonal relations.

At the end of high school, I had moved into another fandom and discovered slash, but since I can only do one fandom at a time, it was too late to go back and start slashing Fritz.

For the next twenty or so years, I was never deeply in 18th century or Fritz fandom again, until three months ago. I only sporadically spent an hour here or there making up stories about Fritz in my head, without doing research, just based on what I remembered. (Realize that everything I've been regurgitating here is a combination of a couple of years of reading in high school, a 20-year lacuna, then 4-8 weeks of refreshing myself in summer 2019 and taking advantage of internet resources on Katte. And internet only because of the new physical disability that I will never stop complaining about.)

But, even in my days of not being in this fandom, I did want to ship Fritz/Katte. Badly. But being deeply immersed in other fandoms, I was unmotivated to go getting my hands on sources. And, due to repeated moves on a low budget, I had gotten rid of my history book collection, seeing as how I hadn't been in that fandom in a gazillion years. So all I had was an electronic copy of the public domain biography of Fritz by Carlyle, written in the 1860s.

And I have multiple memories, years apart, of trying to get material for my ship from Carlyle, and being defeated by his "anti" attitude toward my ship, which basically consists of repeating Wilhelmine, either in paraphrase or direct quotation at length. Behold.

"Poor young man, [Fritz] has got into a disastrous course; consorts chiefly with debauched young fellows, as Lieutenants Katte, Keith, and others of their stamp, who lead him on ways not pleasant to his Father, nor conformable to the Laws of this Universe."

"Of Lieutenant von Katte,— a short stout young fellow, with black eyebrows, pock-marked face, and rather dissolute manners,— we shall not fail to hear."

"A second favorite, and a much more dangerous, succeeded Keith. This was a young man of the name of Katte, Captain-Lieutenant in the regiment GENS-D'ARMES."

Then he repeats the entire passage from Wilhelmine, which you've read, including the "His physiognomy was rather disagreeable than otherwise. A pair of thick black eyebrows almost covered the eyes of him; his look had in it something ominous, presage of the fate he met with: a tawny skin, torn by small-pox, increased his ugliness. He affected the freethinker, and carried libertinism to excess; a great deal of ambition and headlong rashness accompanied this vice. A dangerous adviser here in the Berlin element, with lightnings going! Such a favorite was not the man to bring back my Brother from his follies."

"The maternal heart and Wilhelmina's are grieved to see Lieutenant Katte so much in his confidence— could wish him a wiser councillor in such predicaments and emergencies! Katte is greatly flattered by the Prince's confidence; even brags of it in society, with his foolish loose tongue. Poor youth, he is of dissolute ways; has plenty of it 'unwise intellect,' little of the 'wise' kind; and is still under the years of discretion."

[After the failed escape attempt] "The same post brought an order to the Colonel of the Gerns-d'Armes to put that Lieutenant Katte of his under close confinement:— we hope the thoughtless young fellow has already got out of the way? He is getting his saddle altered: fettling about this and that; does not consider what danger he is in."

He gets some pity for being young, foolish, and loyal, that's all.

Now, I am far from saying that we have to paint Katte and young Fritz as perfect in all ways. Among other things, they made some seriously bad choices around the escape plan! But my ship is my ship and it's for a reason.

So I always went "meh" after flipping through this chapter in Carlyle, was annoyed at what comes across as reflexes of victim-blaming and homophobic mindsets, and went back to kind of vaguely background shipping them without too much detail. Occasionally, I would be like, "And in some AU there was a successful escape attempt, yay, and they lived happily ever after. The end."

Only in my very recent re-perusal of the sources and examination of some new sources did I get enough material for the ship to set sail properly.

And while I should refrain from spending too much money I don't have on books I can't read, this week I did buy a couple used paperbacks for a few dollars each, one of which was Goldsmith's. I can at least use them as references as needed, even if I can't read them cover-to-cover.

And by flipping through the obligatory escape attempt chapter, I discovered that Goldsmith, despite writing in 1929 (!!!) ships my ship! I am willing to forgive her her various claims and omissions that were very common a hundred years ago but which don't stand up to more recent thorough examinations of the documentary evidence, because she ships my ship!

Check this out.

"Rumors of his attachment [to Keith] finally reached the King. Such affairs were by no means uncommon in the century of Louis XV, but they were decidedly out of place at the Court of Frederick William." [!! Her whole attitude is "Fritz was gay and I'm cool with that, deal with it."]

"Frederick's attachment to Keith had been a mere episode, but his friendship with Katte was not a schoolboy's passing fancy; it was deep love and friendship." [!!! <333]

"Katte was the son of a general in Frederick William's army. His ancestors had been Prussian officers for generations, but the military life had never appealed to him. Even Wilhelmine, who disliked him because she was afraid of the disaster which this friendship might mean for her brother, had to admit that Katte was 'well read, intelligent, and that he had savoir faire.' He had studied law in Berlin and had traveled all over Europe, but in the end he had been forced into the army; for one of his class in Prussia there was no future in any but a military career. He would have preferred the life of a scholar, but he was not strong enough to oppose so radically the traditions of his family. Katte was widely read and very well informed for a man of his age and class. He was witty and entertaining. He stimulated Frederick's imagination. He was not good-looking--his heavy eyebrows met over the bridge of a large nose, and he was badly pockmarked--but his great charm of manner apparently caused people to forget his unattractive face.

"Katte, in turn, was devoted to Frederick. Although the young officer had abandoned all hope of any other life, he still rebelled inwardly against the army. It gave him tremendous satisfaction to encourage Frederick's revolt against his father's regime. This hopeless rebellion against the Prussian military system was the chief bond between the two. They had a hate in common: Frederick's father and all he stood for." [Not my interpretation at all, granted, but perfectly possible and an interesting take.]

"Katte helped Frederick to continue his non-military interests in many ways. He smuggled forbidden books into the Prince's apartments, and secretly arranged flute lessons at regular intervals. During these lessons the faithful Katte always kept watch outside Frederick's door, and warned him if he heard the unexpected approach of Frederick William.

"Frederick's allowance was so small that he could afford neither books nor lessons in flute-playing. Katte seemed to know everyone in Berlin, and he easily arranged loans with a number of wealthy merchants." [Insert secret library description.]

[After the failed escape attempt] "The king wanted to catch Katte unwarned. Undoubtedly, however, when Wilhelmine told him of this letter from her father, Katte knew that he would, inevitably, be involved; that he would share Frederick's final punishment if he stayed in Berlin. His furlough had begun. He was free to leave Berlin at any time, but he did not go. Katte was neither a coward nor a weakling, and he loved Frederick. He could not make up his mind to let his friend face Frederick William's wrath alone. Finally, one morning the King's courier arrived in Berlin, and it was rumored that Katte was about to be arrested. He was a popular young man, and by noon some of his his friends had informed him of his coming arrest. Even his colonel sympathized with Katte, and wanted to give the young officer a chance to get away. The arrest was postponed, therefore, until late in the evening. The colonel fully expected that Katte would have left by then, but he was awaiting the officers in his rooms when they arrived.

"During the day Katte had been busy. He had sent the Queen a sealed case with all his letters from Frederick, as well as copies of Frederick's secret messages to England. These documents compromised the Queen as well as Frederick, and it would have been disastrous for her if Frederick William had found them."

"Katte, alone in his cell, not far from Frederick's, hoped for many weeks that his life would be spared. All the time he thought more of Frederick than he did of himself."

[Insert his final letter to his grandfather.] "No, Katte was no coward and no weakling. On the day of his execution he said to Major Schenk, who, much against his will, was ordered by Frederick William to take charge of the execution, 'I die for a Prince whom I love, and I comfort myself with the thought that my death will be the greatest possible proof of my devotion to him.' Wilhelmine, usually so ready with sarcasm, has nothing to say about Katte's last talk with Schenk. She simply records what he told her, word for word. Clearly there was nothing for her to add."

"When he recognized Katte, [Fritz] went almost mad, and knocked his head frantically against the iron bars which separated him from his friend.

"'Forgive me, my dear Katte,' was all he could say again and again.

"The gallant Katte, rising to this last occasion, looked up at Frederick, smiled, and said:

"'Death for such a charming Prince is indeed sweet.'"

Then Goldsmith writes about Fritz's roaring twenties: "[Random woman who Fritz het-posed about]: She has caused his biographers much racking of brains. Some, who are very respectable, wanting to forget or ignore his gay life in Dresden or his friendships with Keith and Katte, speak of Frau von Wreech as his 'first love', but most of them agree that his love for the lady, who must indeed have been very charming, was purely platonic. But I have grown suspicious, skeptical, about Frederick's relations with women...I have wondered whether...gossip about a liaison with a woman of her type would have been welcomed by his father...I do not think Frederick would have announced his passion for the lady had he really cared. Increasingly, as he grew older he locked his real secrets away within himself. There is no reference to Katte in his letters." Earlier on, Goldsmith has said, about Doris Ritter, "[Fritz] thought that he was in love with her, but he was mistaken. His predilection was not for her sex."

1929! Meanwhile, biographers much later in the 20th century are still going, "There was nothing unnatural about Frederick's sex drive, it was just underdeveloped," or "There's no evidence for homosexuality except one estranged and notoriously unreliable Frenchman." Only 8 years ago (!!!), Blanning's bio was notable for going, "Look, people, he was GAY. AND CAMP. Look at the evidence. Sheesh."

Man, if I had had her book instead of Carlyle's, how the history of this ship in my life might have been different. And yes, I transcribed all the Goldsmith excerpts myself, from a physical book, and my upper back is now paying the price. WORTH IT.

Also, shipping aside, I think these two sets of excerpts show just how much room for interpretation of the sources there is, and the one is not necessarily more reliable than the other (I honestly think Goldsmith, while good for <333, goes too far for nonfiction in her interpretations and puts more weight on the evidence than it will bear. Basically, like everyone else, she's presenting her headcanon as canon.). This is why I said, in a comment to one of your other posts, that I've started to read history books like novels. Thank you for your novel, Goldsmith. Ima go write some fic and not call it a bio.

From:

selenak

If it's any comfort, Carlyle's reputation - well, not the general one, but the one of his Fritz biography as THE biography - has been going downhill througout the last century, even before most people detoxed on the Great Man of History dogma. But speaking of Wilhelmine's issues with her brothers' boyfriends (i.e. Katte and to a letter degree Keith), my own theory is that it's mostly a case of close siblings jealeaousy issues. Meaning: she and Fritz had arguably been each other's most important emotional relationship (and the only non-abusive one within their family), then post puberty they were cast into mostly separate social spheres, and he started to form intense emotional ties to other people. Which she couldn't consciously blame him for, of course it's good to have friends, but still, it makes for a sense of getting emotionally left behind or at best having to share, and so her subconscious decided that first Keith, then Katte were suspicious characters, so she'd have some reason she could articulate to herself for her resentment.

(Carlysle, of course, has no such excuse.)

I'm currently re-listening to the audio version of the Fritz/Wilhelmine correspondance which I own, and it reminded me that it really does back up Wilhelmine's descriptions not just of her father's but her mother's behaviour years later in the memoirs. In 1733 when the question is whether she should come back to Potsdam for a visit, she writes to Fritz "the Queen hates me, I have been called 'the vomit of humanity'" and that she's not up for an encore of that in combination of their father's behavior if Fritz is simultanously kept away (as he was during the last time she was in Berlin).

It also struck me that the two of them don't appear to have been close to any of their other siblings at any point. I mean, in one letter Fritz reports, re: their father, "Sophie is now the favourite, but only in contrast of her married siblings, and it will only last till her own marriage, while Charlotte is in disgrace", but otherwise they hardly mention their sisters and brothers at all, and never seem to have considered trusting them with their respective secrets, asking for their opinions etc. It's basically a "you and me against the world" thing formed early on.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

If it's any comfort, Carlyle's reputation - well, not the general one, but the one of his Fritz biography as THE biography - has been going downhill througout the last century, even before most people detoxed on the Great Man of History dogma.

So I've gathered, but at one time, it was all I had, and my Katte-shipping heart now regrets that, grrrr. And I love your "detox" word choice!

it makes for a sense of getting emotionally left behind or at best having to share, and so her subconscious decided that first Keith, then Katte were suspicious characters

I agree that was a major reason. I think a secondary reason is that as Fritz got older, he started making more life choices that she couldn't agree with, and it was a lot easier to blame the people he was hanging out with than to blame him for his own bad judgment, or accept that they were starting to have different values and priorities. How often does "He/she's not a bad kid, he/she just hangs out with bad kids?" get invoked for teenagers throughout the world?

It also struck me that the two of them don't appear to have been close to any of their other siblings at any point.

I agree, I've always been struck by this. And...

It's basically a "you and me against the world" thing formed early on.

This, yes, exactly!

Those poor, poor kids.

From:

cahn

I mean, I mostly thought Carlyle's problem (having only read these bits out of context) was that he depended rather too slavishly on Wilhelmine as a source without thinking that she might have had her own (psychological) agendas.

I agree that was a major reason. I think a secondary reason is that as Fritz got older, he started making more life choices that she couldn't agree with, and it was a lot easier to blame the people he was hanging out with than to blame him for his own bad judgment, or accept that they were starting to have different values and priorities.

I agree with both of these -- I definitely got both of those vibes from Wilhelmine. (Though to be honest if I hadn't had context provided by you guys, I'd probably have been just like Carlyle and taken her at her word.)

Re: Tragic ship

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2019-10-07 05:33 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tragic ship

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2019-10-07 08:03 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tragic ship

From:

selenak - Date: 2019-10-07 08:05 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tragic ship

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2019-10-07 03:17 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tragic ship

From:

cahn - Date: 2019-10-07 04:48 pm (UTC) - Expand

Meanwhile, Fontane

From:

selenak - Date: 2019-10-07 08:47 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Meanwhile, Fontane

From:

cahn - Date: 2019-10-07 05:10 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

selenak

Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine liking each other so that Fritz decided not to talk to Wilhelmine any more: there's GOT to be a fic in this, right?? (I know the most rational explanation is that Fritz is... Fritz, but COME ON, this is what we have fic for) (I don't ship MT and W, mind you, I just... really like it that they got along!)

I don't blame you. Also, it's been years since I've been to the Eremitage in Bayreuth (Wilhelmine's Sanssouci) so I couldn't swear to it, but I think she even painted a miniature Portrait of Maria Theresia (or more likely MT gave her one but in any case Wilhelmine kept it among her personal possessions, not with the state stuff), which makes her "look, she's my husband's liege lady, she was just passing through!" protestations to Fritz a bit less than convincing. But then he was basically: YOU TRAITOR! so much that I figure she had to downplay it for any kind of reconciliation being possible at all. (In what few angry letters he wrote during their breakup and pre reconciliation, he kept referring to MT as yOUR FRIEND the queen of Hungary".) Anyway, yes, there's a fic in this!

(Wilhelmine and Fritz had a quarrel shortly pre her meeting with MT, too, but that one was mostly a misunderstanding. Wilhelmine's Lady in waiting, one Countess of Marwitz, was also her husband's mistress, to Wilhelmine's great distress. So she arranged a marriage for her rival. The groom was an Austrian noble (i.e. away with the Countess of Marwitz to Vienna!), which infuriated Fritz because Marwitz was a Prussian noble and thus not allowed to marry an Austrian noble without his permission. Being paranoid, he thought by arranging the marriage his sister entered a conspiracy against him. (She hadn't told him Marwitz was her husband's mistress because when does this family ever share vital Information when it's most needed? Also it hurt her pride - she was insisting her marriage was a success to him.) Post-reconciliationn, she explained what had been up with the Marwitz, and in any case by then MT had become the greater issue.

From:

cahn

(In what few angry letters he wrote during their breakup and pre reconciliation, he kept referring to MT as YOUR FRIEND the queen of Hungary".)

lol forever OH FRITZ

I think a lot of my ~FEELINGS~ here are from reading Wilhelmine's memoirs (I'm still a third through the second part, it's a bit of a rough slog here because she's now going through hard times with her family-in-law and possibly other people, none of whom I can really keep straight) and her life is just horrible in general and I just want her to have a friend!!

(She hadn't told him Marwitz was her husband's mistress because when does this family ever share vital Information when it's most needed? Also it hurt her pride - she was insisting her marriage was a success to him.)

Oh Hohenzollerns :(
Does all this happen in her memoirs? You mentioned MT shows up as the Queen of Hungary but obviously I haven't gotten there yet.

From:

selenak

Wilhelmine's memoirs break off just when she has to describe realizing Marwitz - who wasn't just a Lady in waiting but a dear friend up to that point - was also her husband's mistress. At least in the of the memoirs I have, her last sentence is "I don't want to write about that court anymore". I might misremember, or have one of the shortened editions, but as far as I know, she never finished her memoirs propery. You have to consider her state of mind when she wrote them: marriage crisis, friend lost, Fritz estranged. I wouldn't be surprised if that was why she tackled her chiildhood and youth to begin with - not just because she had time at her hands, but to remind herself she'd survived worse. And afterwards, when Marwitz had at last left for Vienna, she'd made up with her husband, and she was reconciled with Fritz again, she probably didn't want to dive straight back into the arguments and the misery.

Unfortunately, that means the Maria Theresiia encounter didn't make it into the tell all (again, as far as I recall). She just mentions her when listing the royals who married at the same time she and Fritz had to.
end on a slightly less depressing note, I'm currently reading about "Friedrich II als Musiker", and Wilhelmine plays a big role in that one, not just because music was a mutual passion for them but because he kept sending her his compositions ~~for beta-reading~~ for her musical judgment. Am v. amused but not surprised in one letter Fritz explains how he taught the castrato singer he'd just hiired, Porporino, how to sing properly. (Think Hamlet lecturing the players on how to act.) (And bear in mind that castrati were trained from early childhood onwards and that it was an incredibly tough musical education..)

(I also got a more detailed summary of Wilhelmine's opera "Argenore" than I iused to know. Ahem: Argenore, King of Ponto, has a daughter named Palmida, secretly in love with Ormondo, a noble soldier and war leader; however, Argenore has promised her to Leonidas, his other battle-leader, who in turn has a secret love affair with Palmida's friend Martesia. Our villain Alcasto has designs on Palmida himself and frames Ormondo for trying to run away with her. Ormondo gets arrested. Argenore demands that Palmida kills Ormondo herself, otherwise both of them would have to die.

Ormondo manages to escape. Argenore, who plans to present his daughter with her lover's dead body (since she refused to earlier demand) in order to make her marry Leonidas, orders Leonidas to recapture Ormondo. Leonidas does so and in the ensuiing duel mortally wounds Ormondo, who dies. In anger and despiar, Palmida kills Leonidas. Martesia then, too late, via a letter in her possession reveals that Ormondo was really King Argenore's long lost son, i.e. Palmida's brother. Palmida, learning this, drowns herself. Argenore realises he's destroyed both his children, sings about that and commits suicide on the stage. Fina della tragedia.

...I don't know about you, but I think someone was venting... (More seriously, Wilhelmine in some ways may have been more together than Fritz, but I think it's more a question of her being restrained by being a woman and not having the same power at her disposal to deal with her trauma. She was stuck writing opera and memoirs to even try to attempt to.

...I wanted to end less depressingly, didn't I? Okay, I did manage to find the pastel miniature Wilhelmine - who was never more than amateur but as a princess of her age had to learn to paint as well - did of Maria Theresia (the Erremitage online inventory says she did it with her own hands. Given she met her just that one time, it was probably done by memory unless that meeting took longer (will have to track down Thiel's biography who supposedly gives the most detail on this):

http://www.wilhelmine-von-bayreuth.info/index.php/streben-in-der-politik/maria_theresia_pastell/
To

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Am v. amused but not surprised in one letter Fritz explains how he taught the castrato singer he'd just hiired, Porporino, how to sing properly. (Think Hamlet lecturing the players on how to act.) (And bear in mind that castrati were trained from early childhood onwards and that it was an incredibly tough musical education..)

Oh, god, this is so hilariously in character. Fritz *always* knew better than the experts in their field of expertise, that was his thing. Voltaire and Quantz must have been surprised to be exceptions. :P

From:

selenak

That book is golden with stories about Fritz micromanaging his musicians, including, btw, also female sopranos, not just the castrati. The female lead soprano at the Berlin opera he was particularly involved (and surprisingly complimentary about in general) with; in addition to being a good singer, she also had an abusive dad, so there might have been additional sympathy on that count. All singers, including the great Salimbene (who was one of the legendary castrati on a European level), however, had to endure getting lectured by Fritz.

As for Quantz: when he was about to visit Bayreuth Fritz wrote to Wilihelmine not to give him more than what Fritz gave him per appearance for otherwise he might demand a salary raise upon his return to Berlin, so Fritz' introduction scene in Mein Name ist Bach where he refuses to pay for an uncommissioned composition by Emmanuel Bach was dead on the money at least, no pun intended. :) But yes, fictional Quantz saying "he could be your father" re: J.S. Bach was a line just there get the audience to see Fritz' reaction and introduce Fritz' Dad issues early on in the movie, i.e. exposition duty over historical likelihood for Quantz of all the people to have said it. Otoh, who else would say it? The rest of the people in the scene are all younger than Fritz and utterly dependent on him. You have to consider that the film makers couldn't assume their audience would know all about Fritz' background already going in. This is a Swiss-German movie produced for an international audience who may know who Bach was but might or might not be aware Frederick the Great was his contemporary at best, so they had to include exposition somehow.

Back to the book about Fritz as a musician I've just read: also includes analyses of his operas - Coriolano (same myth Shakespeare's play is based on, worthy of note that you get one of the most famous disapproving mother, not father figures here, and the son eventually decides to listen to his mother knowing full well he'll die for it), Silla (good old Lucius Cornelius Sulla, here a misunderstood good dictator sorting everyone's miseries out despite being maligned as an evil tyrant by some of the cast, and and the end retiring as the Republic can now fend for itself) and Montezuma (Fritz strikes a blow for the Aztecs and against bigotted Catholic Spain, ruled, of course, by the Habsburgs at the time the opera is set; the book's author points out that Montezuma, being a good guy, isn't presented as an ideal ruler, either, and that his goodness and passivity allows the evil ~~Habsburgs~~ Spaniards to genocide his country).

The author argues against what some biographers apparantly have claimed - i.e. that Fritz lost interest in opera post 7-years-war - and backs it up with quotes from documents to prove it. Down to him visiting the opera with his last state guest ever in the year of his death. Who was that last guest? Why, none other than great-nephew Carl August from Weimar. She also provides details about the singers, the concerts, the arrangements (down to such details that when Fritz was visiting Bayreuth post-reconciliation with Wilhelmine, she re-arranged the musical presentation of one of her works in his honor in such a way that the style the songs were presented would echo his favourite castrato singer (Salimbene) and composer (Hasse).

Edited Date: 2019-09-23 09:45 am (UTC)

Re: Yuletide ideas and the Other Royal Murder Dad

From:

mildred_of_midgard - Date: 2019-09-23 03:29 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

cahn

:( Okay, yeah, that's depressing. I can totally understand why she didn't want to talk about it (even if she really liked MT). And venting through opera :( That's a really cute miniature, though!

Fritz explains how he taught the castrato singer he'd just hiired, Porporino, how to sing properly. (Think Hamlet lecturing the players on how to act.) (And bear in mind that castrati were trained from early childhood onwards and that it was an incredibly tough musical education..)

Lol forever, Fritz! (I have taken and failed at enough singing lessons -- as someone who used to be a quite reasonably good violinist, I want to add -- that even before the explanatory note I was kind of laughing at the idea of a flute player teaching a singer how to sing. Yeeeeeah.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

So hilariously, this reminds me of the time I and another Indo-Europeanist student showed up at a summer school in Europe, took a two-week course on comparative Semitic linguistics with both of us having NO background in Semitic, and by the end of week one I was raising my hand to vociferously disagree with the professor (who would never admit that he was wrong and I was right) about how Semitic historical linguistics worked. The other student was less confrontational, but would take me aside to tell me quietly that I was right and making good arguments and to encourage me to keep fighting the good fight. I was amused at our brazenness at the time, and I continue to be.

Later, back at my home university, I took a full semester course on a Semitic language, asked that professor what he thought, and he agreed with the professor at the other university. I continued to be outraged (ETA: "outraged" is a bit strong for historical linguistics. Indignant, maybe) and disagree.

In our defense, several years later, I found out that the foremost historical Semitic linguistics scholar agreed with me. Said foremost scholar also believes the field of historical Semitic linguistics is not as advanced as historical Indo-European linguistics and contains scholars still making elementary methodological mistakes about things that we IE-ists figured out in the 19th century. So there.

But I still think our total confidence about something we first- and second-year grad students had been studying for a week was hilarious, and I relate so hard to Fritz's arrogance, even when it's unwarranted. The thing about being arrogant is that sometimes you're wrong and you get egg on your face (or your entire army gets pummeled or even destroyed at Hochkirch or Kunersdorf) because you refuse to believe it, and sometimes you really are right and the so-called experts really are wrong! Suspect a flautist teaching a castrato is the first case, but there were times when Fritz really was right, and I am not rewriting my essay to be more like George Washington, dammit! :P (LOL)

Edited Date: 2019-09-29 05:22 pm (UTC)