cahn | Frederick the Great post links

More Frederick the Great (henceforth "Fritz") and surrounding ~~spinoffs~~ history! Clearly my purpose in life is now revealed: it is to encourage

mildred_of_midgard and

selenak to talk to me about Frederick the Great and associated/tangential European history. I am having such a great time here! Collating some links in this post:

* selenak's post on Frederick the Great as a TV show with associated fandom; a great place to start for the general history

* I have given up indexing all posts, here is the tag of discussion posts. Someday when I actually have time maybe I'll do a "best of."

Some links that have come up in the course of this discussion (and which I am putting here partially for my own benefit because in particular I haven't had time to watch the movies ~~because still mainlining Nirvana in Fire~~):
Fritz' sister Wilhelmine's tell-all tabloidy memoirs (English translation); this is Part I; the text options have been imperfectly OCR'd so be aware of that (NOTE 11-6-19: THIS IS A BOWDLERIZED TEXT, I WILL COME BACK WITH A BETTER LINK)
Part II of Wilhelmine's memoirs (English translation)
A dramatization of Frederick the Great's story, English subtitles
Mein Name ist Bach, Movie of Frederick the Great and J.S. Bach, with subtitles Some discussion of the subtitles in the thread here (also scroll down)
2017 miniseries about Maria Theresia, with subtitles and better translation of one scene in comments

ETA:
Miniseries of Peter the Great, IN ENGLISH, apparently reasonably historically solid
ETA 10-22-19
Website with letters from and to Wilhelmine during her 1754/1755 journey through France and Italy, as well as a few letters about Wilhelmine, in the original French, in a German translation, and in facsimile
University of Trier site where the full works of Friedrich in the original French and German have been transcribed, digitized, and uploaded:
30 volumes of writings and personal correspondence
46 volumes of political correspondence
Fritz and Wilhelmine's correspondence (vol 27_1)
ETA 10-28-19
Der Thronfolger (German, no subtitles; explanation of action in the comment here)
ETA 11-6-19
Memoirs of Stanisław August Poniatowski, dual Polish and French translation
ETA 1-14-20
Our Royal Librarian Mildred has collated some documentation, including google translate versions of the Trier letters above (see the "Correspondence" folder)!

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Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

mildred_of_midgard

This is a delightful purpose in life and very timely (for me)! I'm so glad you're having a great time. I started out trying not to overload you with my fandom just because you were interested in Verdi, but now I have abandoned all shame and am hijacking your posts to hold all my thoughts as they occur to me, in exactly the same way I used tumblr in my Hunger Games fandom days (before I jumped ship because of the great Adult Content Fiasco). :-DDDD

If not for my health woes, I'd be refreshing myself on 18th century history and telling you more about non-Fritz people, but alas, between finances limiting Kindle purchases, inability to read library books (or even the contents of my own book shelves), and, lately, inability to concentrate at all, you're just going to be in my "talking about Fritz makes me feel better" fandom for now. ;) Keep bringing the questions!

I need this lecture on Katte to have English subtitles, dammit! Hilariously, I discovered from this documentary that my ability to comprehend spoken German, which has always been 0%, is distinctly better on the subject of Katte's execution than any other topic in the world, because I have Google-translated *so many* of the German sources, but obviously I still can't comprehend an hour-long lecture. :-( Basically, there are topical words and phrases I now recognize, but if it's not one of those, i.e. if it's new and therefore worth listening to, then I'm just a non-German speaker.

AKA when "Hinrichtung" becomes one of your only German lexical items. :P

Wilhelm II and those-fanboys-you-don't-want-to-be-in-your-fandom in German history

Being in a fandom with history-rewriting Nazis is the worst. Fuck out of my fandom, Fritz would have kicked your collective asses!

ETA: Also, have you noticed that we just passed 400 comments on the 3 posts combined? :P

Edited Date: 2019-09-18 11:17 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

in lieu of titles, I offer a summary of the lecture - btw, thank you for the link! It's from a conference focusing on literary reflections on friendship, from what I understand, and the changing discourses. Our lecturer picked as his subject three instances of Berlin based writers tackling the Katte tragedy (Theodor Fontane, Heiner Müller, Michael Roes), with however a prologue reflection on not-Berlin-based Schiller and Don Carlos, which made me gleeful. (I always like to hear other people arriving at the same conclusion I arrived at. :) Our lecturer points out that Schiller started to get fascinated with the Don Carlos topic and started to work on it in 1783, when Fritz was still alive, but that the drama didn't premiere until a year after Fritz' death.

(This made me think of something which has nothing to do with the lecture, will address it in a different post.)

Then he presents Fontane, Müller and Roes, adressing not just the different ways they dealt with the topic in terms of event and characterisation but also style, observing, for example, that Fontane - who, I'll remind you, included the whole thing in a travel guide book! - by the way he quotes various "witnesses" - Katte's father, the preacher who was present when Katte died, the courtier/adventure Pölnitz, and Wilhelmine - creates the illusion of a literary salon discussing Katte and Fritz, which is very him, given Fontane, as a novelist, excells at a style he himself referred to as "Plauderei" - casual chatting/discussion - and often characterises people via their dialogue.

Müller's play from the 1970s is one about Prussia which uses FW humiliating the preacher Gundling, the Katte tragedy and the writer Gotthold Ephraim Lessing as three different aspects of Prussia becoming a tragedy. (Being written in the 1970s by an East German author, you can also insert your East Germany = GDR coding here.) It contains notable departures from history due to the theatre format (i.e. Katte gets shot, not beheaded - easier to do on stage - for example) - and includes an interlude where Fritz, Wilhelmine and Katte play what we call "Blinde Kuh" in German (old party game where someone gets blindfolded and has to figure out identities of the other people in the room), Katte is the one blindfolded, Fritz and Wilhelmine exchange clothes ("simultanously hinting", quoth our lecturer, "at the almost incesteous closeness of the siblings and their rivalry about Katte"), the predictable re: Katte ensues, and Wihlelmine then adopts a mask to play FW so Fritz can play-kill her, as he promptly does. But it's also the darkest of the three in that the last scene is one where Fritz as king has become his father, a woman cries for mercy for her husband, a deserting soldier, with the same phrases Fritz has used to plead for Katte earlier, and Fritz replies with his father's words. I.e. Müller goes for the "what was human in Fritz dies with Katte; FW wins beyond his wildest hopes" interpretation.

Roes' novel "Zeithain" I reviewed myself, and we've talked about it elsewhere. Our lecturer points out the difference in discourse in three centuries re: sexuality - i.e. not only are Fritz and Katte explicitly lovers in this one, but also the other first person narrator, contemporary to us Philip Stanhope, is gay and in love with the Katte of his imagination - and Roes' little nods to his predecessors, some of which I missed, such as him calling Katte's invented aunt, at whom Katte addresses the fictional letters from the novel, being called "Melusine" - this is a Fontane heroine from a unrelated to Katte novel, not the French countess and werecreature of myth, though Fontane called his heroine after her, of course. Since Stanhope is very obviously an author alter ego, the lecturer talks about the play of first person narrration in three identities - Katte, Philip Stanhope and Michael Roes.

Afterwards, there's a discussion among audience, and I was fascinated that almost all of the questioners were men, because at most conferences I attended, two thirds were women. Anyway, most of the questions aimed at whether the increasing emphasis on "gay love story" was due to the relaxation of the taboo of talking about homosexuality, and whether or not something was also lost by the "privatisation" of the story, i.e. the incendiary politics of the whole situation. Another question was about the possibility (or lack of same) of friendship in a very hierarchical society, and the lecturer went as far back as Cicero about friendship between the ranks. All lin all, very interesting, but note: not a historical conference about the historical Katte and Fritz, just about their literary reflectionis.

Second post with proper thanks to you and cahn later that day, I must be off to breakfeast.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Thank you so much for this!!! It's been so awesome having an actual German speaker in this discussion (and also someone who learned German history by dint of being immersed in it, not picking and choosing random pieces of history to be interested in). You get to be the BNF in this fandom!

Between the title and the slides I was able to read, I was aware the lecture was a literary take on the subject, not historical, but that is still of great interest to me, especially as someone who, ahem, writes Fritz/Katte fanfic. ;)

Fritz as king has become his father, a woman cries for mercy for her husband, a deserting soldier, with the same phrases Fritz has used to plead for Katte earlier, and Fritz replies with his father's words.

Oh, damn. Does Fritz do the "It would be better for him to die than for justice to pass out of the world" line? Because if so, OOOUUUCH. /o\

I.e. Müller goes for the "what was human in Fritz dies with Katte; FW wins beyond his wildest hopes" interpretation.

As you know, I both agree and disagree with this interpretation. It's undeniable that so many of King Friedrich's life choices were him rationalizing what was done to him. And much of his leadership style was in clear imitation of his father. But Fritz's general fucked-up-ed-ness, imo, came both from the traumatic upbringing and from someone of his personality being handed absolute power plus an army in his society. Absolute power is a *drug*. FW and his traumatic parenting style get way too much credit for "Frederick the Great." Fritz had a strong enough personality and enough resistance to so many of his father's attempts to bend him that I'm convinced much of the post-1740 period was sheer Fritz in context, not Fritz "broken and remolded," as one person put it.

Furthermore, even when we're talking about the effects of the trauma, which were many, I think there's a tendency for eyes to be drawn to the Katte execution, because it's so shocking and in-your-face. It was almost certainly the worst acute trauma Fritz ever had to suffer. But people often react differently to acute and chronic trauma, and a lot of Fritz's reactions later in life make the most sense to me when I view them in the light of the chronic trauma, e.g. the post-Katte "rehabilitation" period in Küstrin.

Katte's invented aunt, at whom Katte addresses the fictional letters from the novel, being called "Melusine" - this is a Fontane heroine from a unrelated to Katte novel, not the French countess and werecreature of myth, though Fontane called his heroine after her, of course.

Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know any of that. (Well, aside from the mythological Melusine, of course.) And yes, I've always been fascinated that one of our major sources on Katte is a travel guide!

the other first person narrator, contemporary to us Philip Stanhope, is...in love with the Katte of his imagination

Aren't we all. ;) (I mean, with an imaginary Katte, not necessarily the one of Stanhope's imagination.)

From:

selenak

Okay, back online for a few minutes. So, the other thing I was thinking about turned into two things.

1.) Yuletide. Firstly, we should request not just Fritz, but assorted other personalities, and coordinate our efforts in order to get the maximum in. (Other than Fritz, Katte and FW, who are a given.) Honestly, my current cracky idea is to follow the tradition of inventing meetings that everyone ever writing about Elizabeth I and Mary Stuart followed and describe a secret summit that never was between Fritz and Maria Theresia, so someone needs to request her. (It'll be a a disaster, naturally, but a very entertaining one.) Possible secret meeting arrangers would be, depending on the time frame, either Wilhelmine or Joseph the rational fanboy? Others? Ideas?

2.) Remember the brave lady-in-waiting who told FW not to be like Philip of Spain and Peter the Great in killing his son? thus preceding Schiller in what historical parallel to use? It occured to me that I never wondered before why Schiller didn't go for Peter and his son Alexej. This father and son were far closer - as you'll recall, Wilhelmine met Peter I. as a child (which means so did Fritz) when Peter was on one of his European travels. And I recently was reminded that FW actually wasn't the worst royal father in his era, because Peter managed to beat him by a) torturing his son to death, and b) having put his son's mother, his first wife, into a nunnery to get rid of her years earlier than that, he invented a lover for her once Alexej did his ill-fated runner, and made life even more horrible for her in her nunnery (as punishment for the supposed illicit sex, but really for being the mother of his oldest son). There are eerie parallels - Alexeji followed a great escape plan with his lover - and differences - he suceeeded in leaving Russia but was tracked down. Also, his lover turned crown's evidence against him.

Now, other than being pitiable for what his father did to him, Alexeji doesn't come across as very sympathetic. He abused his unwanted wife, too (as in, he beat her regularly, and possibly was the cause of her early death at 21 when pregnant with his second child). But then, historical Carlos wasn't anytihing to write home about, either, and Schiller didn't let that stop him from changing his character and inventing Posa for him. So why not gift Alexeji with a better character and a freedom loving bff?

Possible explanation: in this case, the tyrannical father also happened to be the reformer of the two. Peter famously and infamously dragged Russia into the modern world, and Alexej in one of the letters held against him swore he'd abandon and reverse all those reforms, burn the new fleet, abandon St. Petersburg to the wild and restore the supreme status of the church. Precisely because the Peter and Alexeji drama was an 18th century one, Schiller might have known this and found it impossible in this case to rewrite history into the prince and his friend being the freedom lovers.

And lastly: it's such fun to talk with you two about all of this, and thank you so much,

cahn for hosting this!

Edited Date: 2019-09-19 04:17 pm (UTC)

From:

cahn

More later, but I have been thinking about Yuletide this week too :P

I volunteer to nominate and request Maria Theresia (unpopular opinion in this fandom perhaps, but at this point I just want ALL THE FIC about her, whether with Fritz or not, but OMG YES SECRET SUMMIT BETWEEN FRITZ AND MT allllll the popcorn forever), Elisabeth Christine, and Wilhelmine. I would also be happy to nominate Joseph the rational fanboy :D (or anyone else)

mildred_of_midgard, you should definitely nominate four characters :D (I know you are unlikely to participate in YT proper, but as someone who has a vested interest in what other people request/write it totally counts!!)

ETA: OMG can you imagine Joseph arranging the meeting. AHAHAHAHAHA okay I may be sold on nominating Joseph.

Edited Date: 2019-09-19 04:21 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

HAHAHAHAAAAA this whole thing is awesome. No, no, not unpopular opinion! MT fanfic would be great even if she's not my all-time fave. Especially the whole Joseph - MT - Fritz trio, that would be hilarious.

I know you are unlikely to participate in YT proper, but as someone who has a vested interest in what other people request/write it totally counts!!

Indeed, I love the idea of Yuletide and love what comes out of it, and always want people to write fic about my historical faves, but I've never been able to participate, sadly. And that's not going to change this year. I've been told that while you *can* nominate if you don't plan to write, YT etiquette is that you shouldn't?

If not, I'm happy to help nominate, and my #1 character (outside of the obvious 3) I'd want that you two haven't already mentioned would be Peter Keith. I keep working him into my escape attempt AUs. :P

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Also, if we're talking summits that never happened, I have to admit to having a soft spot for Irrational Fanboy Peter, and problematic Catherine always appealed to me even more than MT, and wouldn't *that* make good crackfic? :P

ETA:

cahn, just to clarify, Catherine and Fritz did meet once (she was 14, he was 32), and they sat next to each other at dinner and talked about the arts, and she appears to have impressed him and he to have charmed her, but that's before all the shenanigans that would make a summit including Peter III so much "fun".

Edited Date: 2019-09-19 05:00 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

But then, historical Carlos wasn't anytihing to write home about, either, and Schiller didn't let that stop him from changing his character and inventing Posa for him.

I agree with all the reasons given, and would add that Schiller didn't invent rewriting Carlos' character out of whole cloth; the propaganda elements that would make him suitable for a more sympathetic treatment go back to the 16th century in countries with a strong Protestant demographic. And in the 17th century, there was a French version of Dom Carlos that inspired Schiller by giving Carlos and Elisabeth have a forbidden passion and making Carlos the ideal romantic knight, with an interest in freeing Flanders.

Peter famously and infamously dragged Russia into the modern world

Very apt way of putting it. Peter's history is full of anecdotes too. Though honestly, anyone called "the Great" probably has a bunch of entertaining anecdotes to their name. ;)

From: (Anonymous)

Nominate Joseph by all means, along with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine. Poor Elisabeth Christine, though, would be hard to work in since she only was near the rest of the dramatis personae once a year (in Fritz' case) or not at all (the rest of them), so might I plead for either one of the other Hohenzollern siblings (your choice which one, though Heinrich and Amalie would be easiest if we go for a later time frame) or maybe overworked (by Fritz) Emmanuel (son of JS) Bach? (You'll meet him in the movie. I'm thinking someone would probably arrange for some type of musical distraction at the secret summit. I mean, Maria Theresia canonically had young Mozart in his Wunderkind phase as a visitor at her court, and Joseph of course adult Mozart, for a while. So the least Fritz could do is counter with a Bach?)

(Voltaire, alas, would not do in this scenario. Even in a cracky AU, no one would trust him to Keep his mouth shut.)

From: (Anonymous)

I've got a soft spot for Catherine, too, but here my problem is that Yuletide at least twice had her era as a separate fandom, dominated by Peter III fans. All power to them, I don't mean to begrudge them anything, but he alas is not high in my own cast of interest in this period.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Fair! He's not in my top 4 (or 10) either.

From: (Anonymous)

Peter Keith! Good choice.

Another sudden thought: I seem to recall last year Yuletide changed the rules - previously you could nominate four characters per fandom, last year only three? Or am I misremembering? In any event, what are the rules re: characters this year?

And never mind not participating yourself, writers are grateful to have more characters to choose from, so you'd be doing everyone a service.

Another Thing: last year I think the relevant fandom was called "Prussian 18th Century RPF". Which is servicable, but since we're aiming for a more international cast, maybe we should call it something that includes Austrians like MT and Joseph, and born German-turned-Russians like Catherine? "Seven-Years-War-RPF" would limit the time frame too much, though, alas. Any other ideas?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Poor Elisabeth Christine, though, would be hard to work in since she only was near the rest of the dramatis personae once a year (in Fritz' case) or not at all (the rest of them)

EC is not on my personal wishlist, but I would point out that AUs are a thing! I mean, I badly want Katte to live (honestly, I don't even care how), and all these summits never happened, so...if the author wants, say, EC to get in on the league of petticoats, more power to them. :D

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Peter Keith! Good choice.

He has so much ship and post-ship friendly ex potential, as well as literary potential as a foil to Katte. <33

I'm only vaguely familiar with the Yuletide procedure (as noted, I only read the fic once it comes out), but according to the AO3 description for 2018, "Participants can nominate a maximum of 3 fandoms that they want to be available for Yuletide, and a maximum of 4 characters per fandom." Also, as far as I can tell, the fandom in question was "18th Century RPF," which is how I've seen historical RPF handled every year that I can remember, namely by century. I was assuming that's how we'd be doing ours.

Though personally, "Frederick the Great and his contemporaries" is my fandom. ;)

The AO3 profile also says "You may nominate without signing up, although the mods ask that people only nominate if they're seriously considering participation." :/

From: (Anonymous)

Does Fritz do the "It would be better for him to die than for justice to pass out of the world" line? Because if so, OOOUUUCH. /o\

No idea, since I confess I haven't read the play myself, nor seen it on stage, though since Müller is a modern classic by now, I should be able to get his collected plays at my library once I'm back home. (I met him once in Los Angeles, Heiner Müller that is, though it was in passing since I was getting shown the house he had a current scholalrship in and I would have a scholarship in the next year.) The lecturer didn't quote what Müller lets Fritz say verbatim, he just says that it's the same thing FW says earlier in the play.

Also, you're too kind with the BNF, I dabble in this era at best, but I do enjoy it, and conversations with people who care about historical characters as passionately as I do - even if they're not all the same characters - are exhilarating and inspiring to me.

Re: trauma - yes. Btw, another thing the lecturer pointed out that Carlos in Schiller's "Don Carlos" gets to deal (i.e. mourn, despair, try with new resolution etc.) with the death of his beloved friend right in front of him, however briefly (since he himself is doomed when the play ends), whereas in the three works he majorly focuses on, this isn't the case - Fontane's Katte section is explicitly about him, not Fritz, ditto Roes' novel "Zeithain", and while Müller's play shows post-Katte Friedrich in the last scene, it's to hammer home his devastating conclusion. The grieving process for the loss of friend and friendship both thus isn't there in any of the three.

Travel Guide as key source: Some Fontane background might not be amiss. He's interesting in his own right, with both parents descendants of French emigrants to Prussia (courtesy of Louis XIV revoking the edict of Nantes), hence his father being called Louis, not Ludwig, for example. His father was an apothocary and gambler not good at gambling with high flying plans doomed to falter every time, but a great story and anecdote teller, and a big Napoleon fan who had an anedcote about each of the marshals, for example, and young Theo role played Marshal Ney for his dad, for example. (All in good humor. Louis F. brought his family near bankruptcy more than once but adored his kids and loved playing with them.) Mom was more strict, but she had to be (thankless job that it was - Theo said as a child, he prefered Dad and only growing up understood they'd all have been out on the street if not for his mother playing bad cop now and then). Anyway, collecting anecdotes and telling them at all kinds of occasions was something that came natural to Theodor Fontane due to this heritage. He worked as a jouirnalist for a good long while, where this came in handy, and "Wanderungen durch die Mark Brandenburg" - where the Katte interlude is from - is of his transition period between journalist and full time novelist. His other famous travel book is "Jenseits des Tweed", inspired by the time he was a correspondant in Britain and holidayed in Scotland when not working in London.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Also, you're too kind with the BNF

Look. Right now, there are 3 people active in my corner of this fandom, and you're the only German speaker. That makes you the BNF. :PP

From:

selenak

Just saw that I appear to have posted anonymously in my replies? Sorry, Cahn.

...though the mods ask that people only nominate if they’re seriously considering participation.” :/

Ah, but what would the author of the Anti-Machiavell would want you to do?

Edited Date: 2019-09-19 08:01 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Ah, but what would the author of the Anti-Machiavell would want you to do?

This argument is irrefutable. Really, I'm convinced. I mean, if I'm going to talk the talk about over-identifying with him, I've got to walk the walk!

Also, I'm dying and tears are coming out of my eyes and I can barely see the screen for laughing.

Finally, in keeping with the theme of "find your historical legal claim to Silesia after the fact," I find that a definition of "participate" includes "If you’d still like to participate, you can sign on to be a pinch hitter, join the IRC chat to encourage writers or become a hippo, offer to be a beta reader or write Treats for people." Since I would seriously consider doing at least one of those things (health permitting), I think I get to nominate.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Okay, so I volunteer to nominate (but not request, because I'm not signing up to write, alas):

Fritz, Katte, Keith, and one other character. Could be FW, but I don't actually need FW in my fic. Fuck FW. :P Happy to take one for the team here and nominate whoever we collectively decide on.

From:

cahn

Ok, both of you, I am laughing SO HARD.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Right? That line was too good.

From:

cahn

They've been trying to make the categories more restrictive. What about 18th Century European Royalty RPF?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Hmm. Would I still be able to nominate my 2 Prussian nobles?

From:

cahn

Oh right. European nobility?

...We'll have to do an evidence post. But I think that's fine. Worst thing that happens is that they split it up into Young Fritz & Friends and Older Fritz & Enemies (or whatever)

Edited Date: 2019-09-19 09:11 pm (UTC)