Frederick the Great post links

[cahn]

More Frederick the Great (henceforth "Fritz") and surrounding spinoffs history! Clearly my purpose in life is now revealed: it is to encourage mildred_of_midgard and selenak to talk to me about Frederick the Great and associated/tangential European history. I am having such a great time here! Collating some links in this post:

* selenak's post on Frederick the Great as a TV show with associated fandom; a great place to start for the general history

* I have given up indexing all posts, here is the tag of discussion posts. Someday when I actually have time maybe I'll do a "best of."


Some links that have come up in the course of this discussion (and which I am putting here partially for my own benefit because in particular I haven't had time to watch the movies because still mainlining Nirvana in Fire):
Fritz' sister Wilhelmine's tell-all tabloidy memoirs (English translation); this is Part I; the text options have been imperfectly OCR'd so be aware of that (NOTE 11-6-19: THIS IS A BOWDLERIZED TEXT, I WILL COME BACK WITH A BETTER LINK)
Part II of Wilhelmine's memoirs (English translation)
A dramatization of Frederick the Great's story, English subtitles
Mein Name ist Bach, Movie of Frederick the Great and J.S. Bach, with subtitles Some discussion of the subtitles in the thread here (also scroll down)
2017 miniseries about Maria Theresia, with subtitles and better translation of one scene in comments

ETA:
Miniseries of Peter the Great, IN ENGLISH, apparently reasonably historically solid
ETA 10-22-19
Website with letters from and to Wilhelmine during her 1754/1755 journey through France and Italy, as well as a few letters about Wilhelmine, in the original French, in a German translation, and in facsimile
University of Trier site where the full works of Friedrich in the original French and German have been transcribed, digitized, and uploaded:
30 volumes of writings and personal correspondence
46 volumes of political correspondence
Fritz and Wilhelmine's correspondence (vol 27_1)
ETA 10-28-19
Der Thronfolger (German, no subtitles; explanation of action in the comment here)
ETA 11-6-19
Memoirs of Stanisław August Poniatowski, dual Polish and French translation
ETA 1-14-20
Our Royal Librarian Mildred has collated some documentation, including google translate versions of the Trier letters above (see the "Correspondence" folder)!

Comments

Re: Yuletide ideas and the Other Royal Murder Dad

[mildred_of_midgard]

But then, historical Carlos wasn't anytihing to write home about, either, and Schiller didn't let that stop him from changing his character and inventing Posa for him.

I agree with all the reasons given, and would add that Schiller didn't invent rewriting Carlos' character out of whole cloth; the propaganda elements that would make him suitable for a more sympathetic treatment go back to the 16th century in countries with a strong Protestant demographic. And in the 17th century, there was a French version of Dom Carlos that inspired Schiller by giving Carlos and Elisabeth have a forbidden passion and making Carlos the ideal romantic knight, with an interest in freeing Flanders.

Peter famously and infamously dragged Russia into the modern world

Very apt way of putting it. Peter's history is full of anecdotes too. Though honestly, anyone called "the Great" probably has a bunch of entertaining anecdotes to their name. ;)

Peter

[cahn]

...well??

I mean. You should know by now I am not going to let things like that stand!

Re: Peter

[mildred_of_midgard]

I know! And I almost didn't say it for that reason, because it's been too long for me to remember much more than that they exist, and I have the constraints mentioned elsewhere on refreshing my memory. But maybe selenak will come through for us.

The only entertaining one that comes to mind right now is that Russian Orthodox men wore long beards, western European men did not, guess what Peter's solution was?

a) Ban Russian-style beards.
b) Tax beards.
c) Empower his police to forcibly grab men with beards on the street and shave them off.
d) Personally grab men with beards and shave them off, aka Peter the Great Barber.
e) All of the above.

I also vaguely remember him traveling a lot (like, a lot, see selenak's comment about Joseph imitating him) to figure out how things were done in the countries he wanted to imitate, including visiting the Netherlands to learn about shipmaking technique, and generally being a very hands-on monarch. Like, he was not above grabbing a hammer and nail and learning how to actually Do Shit.

I remember him being extremely tall (Wikipedia says 6'8"), and I'm sure if FW had had the option of kidnapping him for the Potsdam Giants, he totally would have. :P As it was, Peter supplied some of his taller subjects for FW's addiction collection.

...We've mentioned that FW had his agents kidnap tall men throughout Europe for his regiment of extremely tall soldiers, right? Surely we have.

Re: Peter

[selenak]

Peter: since the musical angle always is worth mentioning, Peter is the main character in the Albert Lortzing's opera "Zar und Zimmermann" (Czar and Carpenter), vaguely based on his undercover stint to learn shipbuilding mentioned above. Youtube has a lot of excerpts, I'll see whether there's something to link you to.

As a boy of ten, Peter witnessed the Strelitzes (think Russian cross between mercenaries and sort of traditional soldiers as a vague description) killing two of his uncles and his mother's foster father during their uprising, which is always blamed for his later loathing of the Strelitzes, Moscow and his relatiaonship to brutality. His mother had been his father's second wife, and his older half sister Sophia (supported by the Strelitzes) was regent for much of his childhood. Young Peter used his youth out of power to visit the German and Dutch parts of the trading foreigner's settlements in Moscow, was fascinated, learned a lot, wanted to learn more, and it left him with a lasting desire to modernize the country. (Russia was still v.v.v. medieval at this point.) Mind you, "modernize" doesn't mean he wanted to relinquish power (once he finally had it) one bit. (Other than moonlighting as a shipbuilder in the docks.) As anyone who ever did something he didn't like found out. One reason why the Russian Orthodox Church loathed him and vize versa was that Peter introduced secular schools and in general curtailed the power of the church. (Also that he got rid of his deeply faithful first wife, whom he'd had to marry as a young prince, and married a Baltic German Catholic- though she converted later - ex serf named Martha (when she converted, she became Catherine, and after his death ended up as the first woman on the Russian throne, Catherine I., though she only ruled for two years before dying herself). (Not to be confused of course with Catherine II (the Great, the quondam Sophie Amalie von Anhalt Zerbst).) (Martha/Catherine went with Peter on his campaigns, and supposedly once saved his life when he was fighting the Turks.)

Peter also made it obligatory for the Russian nobility to dress western style and send their sons on the Grand Tour through Europe. (This seems to have had less the effect he hoped for - the young men picking up new ideas - and more even enlarging the gulf between the nobility and the people. (Cue ominous rumbling in the background with a few notes of the Internationale.)

re: his oldest son (the younger ones, by Catherine, all died, whereas some of their daughters survived, among them Anna, mother of Peter III the Fritz fanboy, and Elizabeth, who was the second woman on the Russian throne and a firm enemy of Fritz): the relationship was always rocky, but cracked for good in October 1715, when Peter penned Alexei a letter bemoaning his lack of military prowess and threatening to deprive him “of the succession as one may cut off a useless member.” Peter added that he would rather pass the crown “to a worthy stranger than to my own unworthy son.”

Alexej agreed to enter a monastery (which would have removed him from the succession - remember, at this point Peter's younger sons were still alive) but instead ran off first to Austria, where none other than Maria Theresia's dad reigned, whose wife was the sister of Alexeji's dead wife. This left MT's dad Karl with mixed feelings, because that marriage had been terrible, but otoh Alexej made a credible case of being afraid for his life, and more importantly, Peter by defeating the Swedes and allying with Prussia (ruled by FW) had become a big factor in German politics, which meant it could be useful to have the next Czar be obliged to you. Alexeji ended up in Italy where he was tracked down by his father's people and "persuaded" to come back to Russia. Where a spectacularly violent saga of public confessions, tortures to death, first of Alexeji's allies and his mother's supposed lover, but not of Alexeji's own lover, Afrosina, who'd handed over his paper's to Peter in exchange for being granted immunity, and then of Alexeji himself ensued. We don't know for sure all that was done to him, only that it included being whipped 25 times and that he finally died of his wounds.

Supposedly, one of the most prominent Russian Orthodox priest then cursed both Peter and his immediate descendants (no son of your blood on the throne) and the Romanov family in totem. (Well...)

Re: Peter

[cahn]

See, I think this is amazing, I ask a dumb question and get all kinds of awesome stories back (as well as the connections to alllll the other stories :D )

The musical angle is always worth mentioning, especially to me :P

Holy cow, Peter and Alexej. Yeah, this is rather worse than FW. *shiver* Man, there's a fic there too, isn't there, all the parallels except for this one being even darker (I'm not sure I'm glad to know this is even possible!) and (as you say) Afrosina turning coat against him, where Katte doesn't turn coat against Fritz and gets the loyal last line <3

Re: Peter

[selenak]

"Zar und Zimmermann" is a comic opera, so no gruesome deeds here. It's very loosely based on Peter's time undercover at a Dutch shipping yard The plot revolves along a confusion of identities - word gets out that the Czar of Russia is working at the shipyard under another name, and there are two Russians named Peter present - Peter Michailov (the real deal) and Peter Ivanov (a deserter, whom everybody believes to be the uncercover Czar and flatters accordingly). Young Ivanov is in love with the burgermaster's niece and gets to do tenor stuff, thie French and English ambassadors scheme (this is a 19th century German opera), and at the end there's a happy resolution for all - Peter goes back to Rusisa after sorting things out for the young lovers, the schemes are foiled.

Links:

Zar und Zimmermann, an English summary

Sonst spielt' ich it Zepter, one of Peter's big arias (he's a baritone, the young tenor is someone else

Lebe wohl, mein flandrisches Mädchen (the French ambassador gets romantic)

O sancta justitia! : aria of the Burgermaster, the comic relief and main antagonist of this opera

Man, there's a fic there too, isn't there, all the parallels except for this one being even darker (I'm not sure I'm glad to know this is even possible!) and (as you say) Afrosina turning coat against him, where Katte doesn't turn coat against Fritz and gets the loyal last line <3

Like I said, Wilhelmine (and thus Fritz) met Peter on one of his travels - I think it might even have been the journey during which Peter found out by letter that Alexeji had used his father's Absence to do a runner. FW received Peter in Prussia - they were allies - but the Russian Delegation must have left the Palace they were given in a terrible mess. Whether that had anything to do with the news Peter received - who knows. Anyway, given SD's lady-in-waiting later admonishes FW not to follow Peter's (and Philip's) example of son-killing, the story must have been well entrenched at the Prussian court by then. Here's another irony - I think FW might have gotten along better with Alexej (religious, conservative) provided that in this scenario, Alexeji wouldn't have threatened to undo all his father's work, or would have drunk far too much. And Fritz may have wondered how he'd have fared with Europe's most famous (and infamous) micro Managing reforming Monarch pre him as a Father - would he have died, or would they have gotten along?

(Peter seems to have been a good father to his other Offspring, but then, the only ones who lived beyond early childhood were girls and Father/daughter relationships are sometimes easier.)

In any case, I don't think FW would have thought of persuading/buying Katte to testify against Fritz. His mind didn't work that way. (Maybe if Fritz had run off with Orzelska instead? But no.) Though at least verbally it did occur to him to kill Fritz. He did have other sons, but so at the time of Alexej's death did Peter, so I wouldn't be surprised if the idea that the sin of killing your own child would doom his dynasty (or get a WOMAN on the throne - Peter had changed Russian law to make that possible) was indeed one of the things holding him back.

Speaking of women on the throne, as I observed in my fictional tv series About Fritz post, you have a rich variety of interesting women in the era and not one of them Comes between potential fandom's favored m/m couple. And many of these ladies were actually the most powerful people in their country. (MT, C1, E & C2 in Russia, and Madame de Pompadour in France.) Russia still stands out for having not one, not two but three female rulers within the 18th century.

Re: Peter

[mildred_of_midgard]

Here's another irony - I think FW might have gotten along better with Alexej (religious, conservative) provided that in this scenario, Alexeji wouldn't have threatened to undo all his father's work, or would have drunk far too much. And Fritz may have wondered how he'd have fared with Europe's most famous (and infamous) micro Managing reforming Monarch pre him as a Father - would he have died, or would they have gotten along?

I'm not sure any one of the four was the type to get along with any one of the others at close range, lol, but if I manage to brush up on my Russian history, I'll see what I think about the AU father/son pairs.

Personally, the man I always find myself wistfully imagining raising Fritz and doing a better job than FW was Eugene of Savoy. Not so much because he was the better general (I actually think that borders on irrelevant), or even because he was probably gay (although I like to imagine him being supportive of my ship :-P), but because from the one encounter between Eugene and young Fritz, plus Eugene's interest in the arts and in learning, I got the impression Eugene would have taken a more hands-off and positive reinforcement approach. And as I've mentioned, I think that was all you really needed to get an eventual general-king Friedrich, and in fact a better general than the traumatized one who could never listen to any of his advisors, take his enemies seriously, or admit when he was wrong. NOT, mind you, that I'm saying that Fritz's expansionist wars were awesome and I'd like to see him with even more conquests to his name. I'm just sick of FW's parenting style getting the fucking credit in everything I read.

Re: Peter

[cahn]

So Wikipedia tells me that Alexeji was the only (surviving) child of his first wife and that she was not on good terms with Peter after he left her either personally or politically, so maybe parental alienation (both Alexeji->Peter and Peter->Alexeij) is going on here?

I wouldn't be surprised if the idea that the sin of killing your own child would doom his dynasty (or get a WOMAN on the throne - Peter had changed Russian law to make that possible) was indeed one of the things holding him back.

Besides always and forever laughing at WOMAN on the throne -- and I can see how that would seem like anathema to him -- he does seem like the sort of person who would not actually go as far as killing his son, because sin (kind of like not ever committing infidelity). It does make me think of that bit in Don Carlos where Philip and the Grand Inquisitor are talking about the sin of killing one's own son and whether the GI can absolve it, though :P (Would FW have done it if he'd actually thought it would be a sin he could be absolved for? Though of course now we're talking Protestant absolution rather than Catholic, so I believe theologically you couldn't have an official of the Church do it.)

Heh, it's hard for a woman to come between the favored m/m couple when the m/m couple is actually historically canon!

Re: Peter

[selenak]

so maybe parental alienation (both Alexeji->Peter and Peter->Alexeij) is going on here?

Oh, definitely, but since A's mother - Eudoxia - was in a monastary, he didn't see much of her, either, after the marriage was over. He was mostly raised by third parties. (Though that wasn't unusual for the nobility, let alone royals, at that time.)

Given that FW favored a very strict form of Protestantism, I don't think he would have been able to make himself believe God would ever forgive him for killing his son, no. Incidentally, while the idea of a daughter or grandddaughter of his ever getting on tohe Prussian throne would have horrified him, in all fairness, he did accept the Pragmatic Sanction when Maria Theresia's Dad asked him to. (And likely would not have broken his word afterwards. Not because he would have considered MT or any woman able to rule but because word of honor, etc.)

Re: Peter

[taelle]

My favorite Peter anecdote is the letter of the London owner of the house that Peter and friends rented while visiting England. It was directed to the Parliament, iirc, and was roughly "those rowdy Russians broke everything including the walls, now who's going to pay for this?"
(they were _really_ rowdy. Not just in London. Everywhere. Now Peter was no introvert, loved having bunches of guys around and playing rough jokes with them.
(also was maybe bisexual. Or pansexual. Or "will try anything". And had a bestest bff Menshikov, a groom's son he made a prince. They called each other Mein Herz, but Peter was not above beating Menshikov up if he thought he was stealing from the treasury too much).

Erm, sorry for intruding, but you linked these posts and I've been reading them for the last couple of days.

Re: Peter

[selenak]

Intrude away, it's a welcome contribution as far as I'm concerned! :)

Re: Peter

[mildred_of_midgard]

What selenak said!

Peter was not above beating Menshikov up if he thought he was stealing from the treasury too much

But if he stole just the right amount, that was okay?

Re: Peter

[taelle]

I suspect the right amount of stealing was flying under radar and was a bit like salary - I think Russian economy at that time was in a certain sense included that into the system, like, an official sent to manage a region would _of course_ "feed" from that region.

Also, I strongly suspect Peter was more like "do not create problems for my projects" than "do not break any laws".

Re: Peter

[mildred_of_midgard]

That all makes perfect sense!

Re: Peter

[cahn]

YES SUCCESS

...that is to say, glad you are here, glad you are liking the posts (aren't selenak and mildred_of_midgard great??), and enjoying your wacky Peter stories :D

Re: Peter

[taelle]

Yes they are)

The wackiest stories are not completely canonical (also, a lot of things _everyone_ knows about Peter comes from Alexei Tolstoy's novel about him, which, I think, was translated into English).
Buuut... there are stories that he loved kissing his orderlies a lot (I mean, doing like a hundred kisses in a row) and also slept with an orderly in the sense of using him as a pillow.

More seriously, Peter's arrival to the throne was a bit wacky (and his response to this was to make the inheritance issues even wackier - he insisted the emperor can choose his own heir (yes, he set himself up as an emperor) and the whole 18th century became completely off-kilter as for inheritance (until Paul I who really disliked his mother Catherine II set it up so women could not rule. Which was then a factor in the Russian revolution in 1917, as in, if Nicholas II stopped at, say, two or three daughters and never had a hemophilic son, maybe the monarchy would not become so off-kilter).

Back to Peter, sorry. His elder brother inherited after their dad and died in about 5 years without leaving issue. There were then two remaining princes: Peter, aged about 10, healthy and intelligent boy, son of his father's second wife, and his older brother Ivan, aged about 15, son of the first wife, sickly and generally considered to be unfit for rule (I don't know what was wrong with him - he was ill a lot but also was very passive and not very bright. He did have kids though! His daughter Anna Ioannovna ruled Russia from 1730 to 1740). So... the solution was to crown both Peter and Ivan (and let the fractions centered around their mothers' families fight it out) and have the oldest sister Sofia as a regent. So Peter had a co-ruler for about 10 years or so, and also saw a lot of political infighting and also outright violence.

Re: Peter

[cahn]

This is amazing! I... would not have thought crowning TWO monarchs would be a good solution to this. At all. I am not surprised at all there was a lot of political infighting!

if Nicholas II stopped at, say, two or three daughters and never had a hemophilic son, maybe the monarchy would not become so off-kilter

Wait, what did this have to do with the monarchy becoming off-kilter? Is it because of Rasputin?

Re: Peter

[taelle]

Yes, Rasputin and also the general isolation of the royal family from everyone who could possibly help/support/advise them (like, even relatives did not know about Alexey). Mind you, very possibly the regime would still collapse, just... maybe in a less extreme way.

Re: Peter

[selenak]

I finally have a miniseries in English to rec to you: Peter the Great, starring Maximilian Schell as older Peter, Jan Niklas as younger Peter, Vanessa Redgrave as Peter's older sister and enemy Sophia the regent, Lilli Palmer as Peter's mother, Helmut Griem as Peter's bff Menchikov, Hanna Schygulla as Martha/Catherine I., and a lot of English actors like Trevor Howard and Laurence Olivier in cameo roles as various European dignitaries. Poor Alexeji is actually played by a Russian Actor, Boris Plotnikov. It's a very Euro 1980s production with cheesy soundtrack and international cast, but the acting is solid, it's based on Robert Massie's biography, and they go for morally ambigous yet compelling in general with Peter. (Alexej's death is not as graphic as it might have been, given this was shown at 8 pm, but it's clear how it came about.)

Re: Peter

[cahn]

Ah, excellent, thank you!! I've added it to the links above (so I won't lose the link) :D