cahn | The Jewish War: First half of Book 2

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Last week: Discussion on how Herod stacked up against various Roman emperors in terms of body count of his nearest and dearest; how Friedrich Wilhelm might hear the Josephus text; Herod throwing money around; Cleopatra!

This week: ...uhhhh there was a lot going on and I haven't actually finished the reading yet *ducks* -- I am doing that right now and I should most likely be able to comment tomorrow. (I don't anticipate this being a problem again for at least two more months, and most likely not then either; this was a confluence of various time sinks that doesn't usually happen all at the same time.) But I wanted to go ahead and get the post up because I know you guys have read it... (ETA: have finished the reading now :P :) )

Next week: finishing up Book 2!

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From:

cahn

If he wants to have sex with a freedwoman and with adult men, HE WILL HAVE SEX WITH THEM, and stay up late, so there

omg LOL!

Agrippina supposedly shouts right back that he’s an ungrateful little shit whom she made Emperor by killing her husband and some other people (allow me to doubt Agrippina shouted the later part in front of other people), and if he keeps this up, she will throw her weight behind Britannicus and make him Emperor instead!

Ha. It's funny to imagine that she shouted all those things, anyway (even if it seems rather unlikely)

The boys were so intimate too, that it is believed that when Britannicus drained the fatal draught,⁠2 Titus, who was reclining at his side, also tasted of the potion and for a long time suffered from an obstinate disorder. Titus did not forget all this, but later set up a golden statue of his friend in the Palace

Gosh, Titus :/ (I mean, it's obviously worse for Britannicus, but I can't imagine that wasn't super traumatic for Titus.)

From:

selenak

It must have been super traumatic, yes. However, note there is one inconsistency: if Nero really did bully Locusta to make a super fast killing poison instead of a more slow one, and ended up with such a strong tested poison which instantly killed the animal it was given to - how come Titus survived? (Suetonius has both stories in "Twelve Caesars" , the one about the instant poison in the Nero biography, and the one about Titus being a witness and surviving in the Titus biography. (This isn't the only time Suetonius contradicts himself - in the Tiberius biography, he both early on claims Tiberius was a generous ex when Augustus banished his daughter (and Tiberius' stepsister and wife Julia and pleaded her case despite her being an undeserving slut, and later says that Julia was much pitied by everyone when Augustus banished her, public sympathy was on her side, just Tiberius didn't do anything for her and even had her starved the moment Augustus was dead.) (Suetonius clearly needed a beta reader.) More Nero friendly modern historians have speculated that maybe Britannicus wasn't poisoned at all but really died of an epileptic fit, with everyone just assuming it must have been poison because of the situation.

My own take is that the whole story about Nero forcing Locusta to make an ever stronger poison is the result of the tale growing in the telling (remember, Suetonius and Tacitus are writing lots of Emperors later) and rethorical flourish, but that Nero most likely did kill Britannicus, just as Caligula had ordered Gemellus killed early in his reign, and for that matter, just like the much praised Augustus had ordered Caesarion killed the moment he could. "There can only be one" and all that. Especially with Nero himself being a late teen just emerging on the other side of a power struggle with his mother and realising he really CAN do anything he wants now. Either way, Titus evidently never forgot the experience. Having a statue for Britannicus errected many years later in the Flavian age wasn't of use to him propaganda wise; I doubt at this point many people still remembered Britannicus had existed. But to him, this was a friend who died incredibly young.

(BTW, I always thought Titus would make a great pov character for a YA short story or novella for the early Nero days. As Britannicus' bff, he's around, he's a teenager, he's not a slave but also not a member of the imperial family or even the high aristocracy. His father at htis point is an ok general from the countryside, that's it. So he's not completely powerless the way a slave would be, but he's still disposable if he speaks to the wrong people or shows what he knows. Titus trying to find out how Britannicus really died: the YA novel or story yet to be written!

From:

cahn

Oh -- yeah, I was discounting the whole Titus-was-poisoned stuff (which, idk, maybe true but I'd think it would be hard to show) and mostly just thinking it must have been pretty traumatic to have your best friend basically die horribly in front of you and, even if it was an epileptic fit, everyone around you assuming it was poison and that you might well have been gone with it.

Titus trying to find out how Britannicus really died: the YA novel or story yet to be written!

Oh yeah! I'd read this!