The Jewish War: First half of Book 2

[cahn]

Last week: Discussion on how Herod stacked up against various Roman emperors in terms of body count of his nearest and dearest; how Friedrich Wilhelm might hear the Josephus text; Herod throwing money around; Cleopatra!

This week: ...uhhhh there was a lot going on and I haven't actually finished the reading yet *ducks* -- I am doing that right now and I should most likely be able to comment tomorrow. (I don't anticipate this being a problem again for at least two more months, and most likely not then either; this was a confluence of various time sinks that doesn't usually happen all at the same time.) But I wanted to go ahead and get the post up because I know you guys have read it... (ETA: have finished the reading now :P :) )

Next week: finishing up Book 2!

Comments

German tangent

[selenak]

The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, briefly:

Quinctilius Varus: Sure, after Syria and Judea my German assignment will be a piece of cake!

Arminius: Martin Luther named me Herrmann because he wanted me to have a German name, and subsequent centuries followed suit, but current German historians have gone back to "Arminius", because my original name simply isn't known. I and my brother Flavus (see above for original name, Flavus means "Blond") were given as hostages/future rulers to be raised in Rome much like Herod's sons, Dad being the leader of the Cheruskii. We then fought in various wars; I distinguised myself in Pannonia and was made not just a Roman citizen but a Roman knight. Ditto Flavus. But guess what! Flavus may have been Romanized through and through, but I decided Romans are human and defeatable. Hey, Varus. I, your loyal leader of the Cheruskii, want you to do me a favour and march into the territory of this tribe I'm at war with, just as a show of strength, to show who's boss on both sides of the Rhine. I mean, we Cheruskii are Roman allies, right?

Segestes: Varus, don't do this. This young pub is my son-in-law, and we can't stand each other, so I know whereof I speak - this is a trap.

Arminius: He's just still furious me and his daughter Thusnelda are an item.

Varus: True love is great. Arminius, you have fought and bled for Rome and Segestes has not, of course I believe you! Legions, muster up! We're leaving headquarters for a show of strength for our valued ally.

Somewhere in the Teutoburg Forest, where the three Roman legions, so impressive in open territory, have been thinned out marching between trees:

Germans of both the Cheruskii and the tribe the Cheruskii supposedly were enemies of: Surprise, suckers!

*Two and a half day battle* Ensues.

Varus: Commits suicide early in day 2.

Three Roman legions: Are wiped out.

Augustus: QUINCTILIUS VARUS, WHERE ARE MY LEGIONS!

Tacitus: I'm writing up this battle big time to make a point about the decadence of our times in comparison to our ancestors. I mean, if you can get beaten by a bunch of barbarians, that's, like, totally humiliating.

Martin Luther: I'm using this battle to make a point about brave Germans beating back the oppression of perfidious Rome, by which I mean me and my followers versus the Pope and his bunch of Italians who need the Renaissance financed with indulgences. Me doing so reminds everyone this happened, and it returns to the popular consciousness.

Heinrich von Kleist: I'm living at the time of the Napoleonic wars, to be precise, in the phase where my home state of Prussia is getting its backside kicked by the French. Therefore, the Romans in my drama about this event are of course the perfidious French and the Cheruskii are the oppressed Germans fighting for their freedom.

Heinrich Heine: I, on the other hand, make fun of the Battle at the Teutoburg Forest cult in my epic "Deutschland. Ein Wintermärchen."

Lots and lots of 19th century nationalists: We double down on Hermann veneration and put money together to errect a giant statue of Hermann the German.

Later 20th century Archaelogists: More fool you, because a) you put in the wrong place, because we actually discovered where the battle has taken place by virtue of disovering Augustus age coins and lots of skeletons from young fighting age men. And our place is nowhere near your statue. Also, his name is Arminius.

Nazis: We, of course, were the worst fanboys, as is our want, and cast "Hermann" as guess who.

Later 20th century historians: We're still facepalming about this. And are calling it the "VArusschlacht" now, because at least with Varus we're sure what his name was.

Re: German tangent

[cahn]

Tacitus: I'm writing up this battle big time to make a point about the decadence of our times in comparison to our ancestors. I mean, if you can get beaten by a bunch of barbarians, that's, like, totally humiliating.

I laughed!

Martin Luther: I'm using this battle to make a point about brave Germans beating back the oppression of perfidious Rome, by which I mean me and my followers versus the Pope and his bunch of Italians who need the Renaissance financed with indulgences. Me doing so reminds everyone this happened, and it returns to the popular consciousness.

Nazis: We, of course, were the worst fanboys, as is our want, and cast "Hermann" as guess who.

So, when Arminius showed up I was like waaaaaait I am pretty sure I have heard of this guy! He's in The Oppermanns! Where, when I went back to find it, one of Berthold's arguments is that in the grand historical scheme of things Arminius didn't really make a lot of difference overall, because the Romans just came back, right? (Which makes Luther's argument kind of hilarious to me.)

Re: German tangent

[selenak]

Yes indeed, it is the very man poor Berthold is supposed to do a presentation on in The Oppermanns .

And hey, Luther would argue that the Romans never ruled over all the Germans, just some of the tribes, just like the Germans of his day ended up divided between those he helped see the light and those who insisted on being slaves to Rome. :)

Speaking of the Oppermanns, you may recall Berthold’s cousin Ruth the Zionist argues that despite not beating Rome for good Arminius’ temporary victory makes for an inspiring national resistance narrative, and she connects that directly with Zionism. Of course, Feuchtwanger wrote The Oppermanns in between Josephus Trilogy Volume I and II, so the “is it worth fighting a superior military power occupying your country if you know you don’t have the chance for long term military victory?” Question was very much on his mind.

In the correspondence between Feuchtwanger and Brecht, Brecht teases him when LF is working on Josephus that he should take care not to be swept away by emotion “or else I will write a drama about Hermann the Cheruscan”.

=> Varus isn’t the only connection between Jewish rebels and German rebels on a meta level

Re: German tangent

[cahn]

Ahahaha, I am amused, this is very on-brand for me to not remember this from history at all, but it was in a novel, and I at least remembered that!

In the correspondence between Feuchtwanger and Brecht, Brecht teases him when LF is working on Josephus that he should take care not to be swept away by emotion “or else I will write a drama about Hermann the Cheruscan”.

hee!