The Jewish War: Second half of Book 1

[cahn]

Last week: Some really interesting discussions on (among other things) Caesar Augustus, the temple in Egypt, and the destruction of the temple (in Jerusalem) as divine punishment and also free will.

This week: More Herod! Definitely went quite a bit faster than last week! Featuring lots and lots of family drama... the kind that includes a ton of bloodshed. I'll talk more about it in comments.

Next week: selenak can you give us a halfway point for Book 2? It looks a bit shorter but I'm also going to be crunched for time next week (and definitely won't be able to post until Sunday) so half a book is what it's going to have to be! ETA: Death of Emperor Claudius!

Comments

[cahn]

Josephus clearly thinks Antipater was THE WORST

haha, this actually did not completely register with me because of stuff like him having a group of leak-proof friends. Like you say, there must have been something good about him if he could have that! And at least in the beginning, again like you say, he knows about how to keep his mouth shut around abusive Dad. I rather imagine that if Antipater had survived and become the next king that this history would read rather differently in tone...

And once you start with the family killing, you must be aware it can be done to you by other family members as well.

Oof. Yeah, good point.

"A most unfortunate father" and so forth - this reminded me of FW, in that this would absolutely be how FW would summarize his relationship with Fritz.

OMG IT SO WOULD. Right, now we need the fic where the Hohenzollerns are reading Josephus :P

Yes, and I think this is also why Josephus can't go all gospel on Herod and present him as an all evil tyrant.

Speaking of this, the video you linked me last week (thank you!) pointed out that the one thing the gospels blame him for, the slaughter of the innocents, likely never happened, and in any case it's certainly not in Josephus. Which I don't think I knew before (I guess I wouldn't have known before about Josephus as a source for Herod's life in any case), although the rendition in the NT has always struck me as something that seems both sort of calculated for maximum villainy points -- a killing-puppies vibe with all the boy babies under two -- and maximum resonance points (with the Exodus story), so it wasn't entirely surprising.

[selenak]

The problem with the Hohenzollern reading Josephus is that I’m not sure there was a French translation of Josephus available in the 18th century, or for that matter a German one, which however Fritz would not read anyway. FW would read a German translation in principle but de facto has an awowed disinterest in ancient history, unless, I guess, you sell him on Josephus being worth reading due to the most likely inserted by others few sentences mentioning Jesus later on. And neither of them spoke Greek, so reading it in the original is out of the question.

(As far as I know, current consensus is that Josephus wrote the book first in his own language, i.e. either Aramaic or Hebrew, and then had it translated into Greek for general publication, which is the form that survived.)

Basically if I had to write the crackfic, I would let Gundling read his very own translation of a Herod description rather pointedly at the Tobacco College, believing FW wouldn’t get it but the rest would yet wouldn’t dare to tell FW. FW, however, would go “OMG, I had no idea evil King Herod the baby killer also had this very human streak! Maybe he wouldn’t have been so evil if not for his interfering womenfolk and ungrateful wretched sons! Must share this with my family at the next breakfeast!” Which is when Fritz hears about it, wonders why the hell Mariammes sons didn’t stay in Rome and otherwise is rooting for Antipater.

(More seriously, once Voltaire writes his Mariamne tragedy, then of course Fritz will know all about this version of the story and will have opinions based on it. Voltaire presumably has read Josephus or excerpts in any of the languages he spoke and read, and he did go to a Jesuit grammar school, so.)

Glad to hear you enjoyed the vid. Extra History isn’t flawless, but immensely entertaining and reasonably well researched, so a good way to enjoy a broad strokes summary.

[cahn]

unless, I guess, you sell him on Josephus being worth reading due to the most likely inserted by others few sentences mentioning Jesus later on.

I mean, that's why Josephus' text got saved, right? And they wouldn't have known that then.

I would let Gundling read his very own translation of a Herod description rather pointedly at the Tobacco College

ahhhhh YES I love this

Maybe he wouldn’t have been so evil if not for his interfering womenfolk and ungrateful wretched sons! Must share this with my family at the next breakfeast!” Which is when Fritz hears about it, wonders why the hell Mariammes sons didn’t stay in Rome and otherwise is rooting for Antipater.

OMG. He SO WOULD. (FW. But also Fritz!)

More seriously, once Voltaire writes his Mariamne tragedy, then of course Fritz will know all about this version of the story and will have opinions based on it.

Oh right! So, what are Fritz's opinions based on Voltaire's tragedy?

[selenak]

Fritz: Like most things Voltaire, that UTTER SCUM OF A HUMAN BEING, writes, his Herod and Mariamme tragedy is divine and I must read it again!

(More seriously, not having read it yet, I have no idea what his Herod-as-filtered-by-Voltaire opininons would have been, just that he would have them.)