February 28th, 1732: FW, with SD present, asks EC's parents for the marriage, then calls Fritz and asks him if he has any objections? Of course Fritz says no, FW tells him to kiss their hands, EC is called and also asked. FW is so enthusiastic that he tells Fritz to kiss EC, which her father stops, and that he wants them to marry the next week, which Fritz manages to stop ("Let's maybe have an engagement first? A little more decency?" - I have a very hard time imagining Fritz calling out FW on lack of decency, though, so I suspect this might be Manteuffel's phrasing, and I'm also wondering who even is his source here. *side-eye*)
Manteuffel about EC, not quite as good at reading Fritz as he thinks, but mostly this made me sad for EC: “The princess does not displease the Prince Royal in any way, as she is nothing less than ugly or unpleasant. She is blonde and quite tall and shapely for her age. She has a beautiful complexion, although still a little blurred by the smallpox spots, large blue eyes and facial features resembling those of her brother the hereditary Prince. Her temper seems sweet and however difficult it may be to judge the character of a girl who finds herself under the iron of a rigorous mother, I believe she is much more inclined to joy than to sadness. It is true that she seems a little shy and embarrassed, but as she is by no means so when she finds herself among people of acquaintance, we must not doubt that she will soon become more daring and freer, when she will have free elbows. She will do very well, the Prince Royal maintaining that he would rather have a wife who made him a cuckold, than to have one who did not know how to keep the conversation going."
Weber: However, the satisfaction which Manteuffel thinks the prince found in the bride appointed for him must have been very temporary; other circumstances and "escapades" of the young prince probably had a disturbing effect. Manteuffel sometimes writes his reports about these with such a slippery pen that we cannot reproduce them here.* *FN: We can also find something similar from later times, especially from 1740 and concerning certain evening parties, called "parties de chauvesouris", which are said to have been very -- colorful.
Me: Noooo. Why are all you guys so easily embarrassed, but then start wars that destroy the primary sources? SIGH.
(Also, I was a bit confused as this point, because I thought that Manteuffel didn't start his regular reports from Berlin until 1734, but Droysen says he split his time between Pomerania, Berlin, and Leipzig between 1730 and 1733, so I guess that checks out?)
Weber says he was also present during the engagement party on March 10th - together with FS and 300 other guests - and reported the looked very subdued and had tears in his eyes when rings were exchanged bit.
EC supposedly told FW early on that Fritz didn't touch her? I'm kind of side-eyeing that as well tbh. On the other hand, we do know that the topic was hot at the end of 1735. Fritz apparently threw a party for EC's birthday on November 8th to smooth things over, but FW still had the new bed made for them (from green velvet), as we have heard before. Manteuffel: "a new conjugal bed will be made for the prince, the former being occupied, it is said, by some Asmodee or spell, which prevents procreation." And later: "The King demanded from his son an oath, that he would live with his wife as a true husband, that he would consummate the marriage, that he would not make a separate bed. The Prince's refusal put the King in such a fit of fury, that the son was forced to retire."
Manteuffel comment when sending a Fritz letter on to Brühl: "The letter [...] does not contain anything important, but I thought I should communicate it to you, because it can be used to show a part of the character of the author, which is to have a lot of spirit and reading, to flatter himself by showing it [se piquer a faire parade], enjoying himself in making people feel he has some, and to be extraordinarily polite in his letters in order to attract reciprocal incense."
On another occasion: "It is a pity that this Prince is surrounded only by young officers, most of them very brainless and ignorant, when he is in his regiment, where he spends most of his time to please the King, his father; it is certain, that if he haunted only wise and intelligent people, he would become one of the beautiful geniuses of his time and would easily correct several small faults, for which he is still responsible both on the side of the heart and on the side of the mind."
He also includes a copy of his own answer, commenting that given all the "douceurs" Fritz wrote him, he gave back in kind. And boy, did he lay it on thick indeed - such a pity that Fritz is destined to become a protector of authors and not an author himself, and what is he going to love outside of himself if he wants to hate all imperfection, etc etc ...
Weber: Alas, all the honey he collected for the Prince didn't agree with Manteuffel, turning sour, as this is what he writes in his next report: "I am delighted that he has come [back to Berlin], this correspondence cost me more trouble than all the others I maintain."
Finally, Manteuffel's self-congratulatory "Europe will thank me for teaching him the right morals once I'm dead, plus four reasons why the crown prince likes me" letter is a thing to behold. (I think Selena and Mildred mentioned most of it before, but I can reproduce it if you want.) I'm sure Europe was very thankful indeed, Manteuffel. :P I'm also not surprised that your relationship with Fritz didn't last long.
Me: Noooo. Why are all you guys so easily embarrassed, but then start wars that destroy the primary sources? SIGH.
Well, quite, though thankfully Seckendorff the nephew and his secret diary preserved some of Manteuffel’s more explicit comments on this subject, to wit, reminder and quote from my Seckendorff write-up. Seckendorff says Le Diable does advise Fritz to put more of an effort into the marital relationship:
(...)because it would make your state now happier, and would save you from many future worries, because when we see that You have no lineage, we will marry your brother Wilhelm, and then the scheming and plotting will be inevitable" .
Junior agreed to all this; "But", he said, "I can't embrace my wife with passion, and when I sleep with her, I do it rather out of duty than by inclination."
Mantteuffel points out that the earth would be barren if the only children born were born to couples who loved each other, and hey, gird your loins, she's got at least a nice exterior?
Junior: ,, This is true, her form is very pretty; but I have never been in love with her. However, I should be the last man, in the world if I didn't esteem her: because she has a very sweet nature, a more docile woman one cannot imagine, she's excessively compliant, and hastens to do everything she believes can please me. Also, she can't complain that I'm not sleeping with her. I truly don't know why there isn't a child there already."
In case Seckendorff Jr. is slow on the uptake, Manteuffel has a literary hint for him:
The Devil makes me read the Roman History of Des Echarts and points out the character of Junior, who is the same as that of Emperor Hadrian.
Seckendorff has a non-Diable source as well for FW thinking Fritz needs more encouragement re: marital sex: Biberius tells me about the secrets, that Junior confided in Pöllnitz. The King encourages him to produce children, had him made a marital bed out of velvet. Biberius does not believe, that Junior will survive the father, but that pessimus Wilhelmus will succeed one day.
So maybe it’ll all FW’s paranoia, but while I don’t think EC made a deliberate “he’s not having much sex with me!” Complaint, I can see her having accidentally let something slip when FW in his crude way asks her when he can expect his grandkid, or something like that. It would have been enough for her to react embarassed/shy and start to stutter for him to assume the worst.
it can be used to show a part of the character of the author, which is to have a lot of spirit and reading, to flatter himself by showing it [se piquer a faire parade], enjoying himself in making people feel he has some, and to be extraordinarily polite in his letters in order to attract reciprocal incense."
That’s actually a pretty good description of Fritzian letters, especially from the Crown Prince phase. And I do love the phrase “reciprocal incense”, which immediately brings to mind the early “you’re the greatest”/“no, you’re the greatest!” Exchanges with Voltaire. And not just Voltaire. Laying it on thick is pretty much standard for Algarotti or indeed Suhm in the later 30s when writing to Fritz, isn’t it?
Manteuffel getting his impact on Fritz wrong: obviously, though Bronisch points out that even the Wolff question totally aside, he’s actually reading at this point what Manteuffel recs, and includes in his very first letter to Voltaire a Manteuffel edited book as a gift to reccomend himself to Voltaire. Meaning that Manteuffel isn’t completely wrong about having made an impression at this point in time. And let’s not forget, he does seem to have had a knack for mentoring people and leaving life long fond impressions (see also Formey and Des Champs singing his praises decades after the man is dead, when not many other than they would still know who he’d been and there is no one to impress by mentioning him), and unlike with many nobles, his intellectual cedits weren’t just superficial. He didn’t just have the complete university education instead which Prussian princes wouldn’t get until much much later, he kept up contact with his alma mater in Leipzig and the scholars there, provided funds for students there (which speaks of a genuine interest in the future beyond “how will I and my backers profit?”), and does things like translating Horace from Latin to French in his spare time for fun.
Of course, he’s also exactly the kind of smooth, wily and bribery spreading envoy showing up in the Anti Machiavell under the “not to be trusted, though definitely to be employed against others” headline, and while I doubt Fritz knew the full extent of how many people around him Manteuffel had bribed (see also: Manteuffel getting reports from the Straßburg trip, most likely from young Wartensleben who makes it on the list of six people Fritz says he loves and recommends to AW in the event of his death in the first Silesian War) , he probably had a good idea about some. (Including “I was framed by Seckendorff Jr.!” Protester Des Champs.) (BTW, looking up old write ups has reminded me that Manteuffel was able to take over Grumbkow’s network in 1739 after his death.) And of course Fritz would resent any attempt at manipulation he noticed.
Given that Manteuffel didn’t have a high opinion of princes in general - In a letter to Christian Wolff himself from June 16th 1738, Manteuffel wrote that two thirds of the princes in the HRE had shown themselves to be worse than useless plagues of humanity and called them "prètendus Dieux terrestres“ - and given those he personally knew in Saxony, Denmark, Hannover and Prussia, I think he did truly see Fritz as the one with the most potential, but as Louise Gottsched correctly points out to him in a letter before Silesia 1 even starts, the whole roi philosophe idea is questionable. Otoh, the Fritzian reasoning of why kings came into being and are necessary in The Anti-Machiavell actually does not sound unlike what Manteuffel according to Bronish wrote just a bit earlier. Quoting from the Bronisch write up: In an unpublished treatise on how to educate a prince, written in the later 1730s, he wrote that absolute monarchical power was subject to the "Loix de la Nature et de la raison", and the monarchs needed to respect the laws of nature and reason all the more because they were carrying the responsibility for "le bien de la societé"; only this provides in Manteuffel's unpublished opinion a legitimization to the institution of kings at all, "l'unique fin de leur institution". Otherwise there is no point to kings.
=> He probably did say something like this to Fritz, or wrote it in one of the many letters not surviving.
Me: Noooo. Why are all you guys so easily embarrassed, but then start wars that destroy the primary sources? SIGH.
HAHAHAHA, I laughed out loud. :D
But let's remind everyone of the juicy quote that would definitely have embarrassed your average 19th-early 20th century editor, but which Blanning is happy to reproduce in 2016:
[Seckendorff Jr.] recorded in June 1735: “Friedrich Wartensleben has confided in me that Junior [Frederick] fucks his wife in the afternoon and says that she has a lovely body and a beautiful arse.” In the following month Wartensleben confirmed that Frederick was sleeping with her.
Blanning also adds, in relation to the "I can't embrace my wife with passion" discussion with Manteuffel,
Seckendorf recorded this exchange as if it had been a conversation which Manteuffel had then told him about. In reality, there had been an exchange of letters. On 26 August 1736 Manteuffel had written to Frederick to urge him to produce an heir, adding that this was what all his friends wanted. He also expressed the hope that the settled life at Rheinsberg—to which Frederick and Elizabeth Christine had just moved—would be more conducive to conception than the previous short and hurried encounters necessitated by Frederick’s garrison duties at Ruppin and his wife’s residence at Berlin. In his reply, dated Rheinsberg, 23 September, Frederick made no mention of his feelings for his wife, merely writing: “I am very obliged to you for your concern about my propagation, and I have the same destiny as the stags who are presently in rut; in nine months from now there may happen what you ask for.” Even if it did not, there was nothing to worry about: “Kingdoms always find successors and there has never been a case of a throne remaining empty.” Had there been a conversation such as that recorded by Seckendorf as well as this exchange of letters? All that can be stated with certainty is that Frederick wished Manteuffel—and thus his father—to know that he was doing his best to produce an heir.
I have to say, proactively writing:
Even if it did not, there was nothing to worry about
has always made me think that he was doing the bare minimum, if that. Set those expectations low, Fritz!
Laying it on thick is pretty much standard for Algarotti or indeed Suhm in the later 30s when writing to Fritz, isn’t it?
Preuss doesn't give us any letters from Algarotti until 1742, when he'd already done his first Frexit and was in Dresden (and they only met in August or September 1739, so there wasn't a whole lot of time for letters in the late 1730s), but Suhm, GOD YES. To the point where only looking at his actions gives me any confidence he wasn't just flattering out of self-interest: most especially his decision to set off for Berlin, even knowing that the trip would be detrimental to his health (as he later wrote to Fritz, and as it turned out).
Of course, he’s also exactly the kind of smooth, wily and bribery spreading envoy showing up in the Anti Machiavell under the “not to be trusted, though definitely to be employed against others” headline,
Yes indeed. This is why I was going to use him as my Poirot stand-in in the "everyone stabs FW" AU. ;) He may not be able to get everyone to confide in him, but he doesn't need to--he has spies!
Even if it did not, there was nothing to worry about
has always made me think that he was doing the bare minimum, if that. Set those expectations low, Fritz!
Definitely! Not the worst strategy I guess.
ahahaha, I just always imagine him doing the deed once and being like, "welp, okay! Seems to have worked for my parents, apparently worked for Wilhelmine, hopefully it works for me, not doing that again!"
That’s actually a pretty good description of Fritzian letters, especially from the Crown Prince phase. And I do love the phrase “reciprocal incense”
Yeah, I too loved that phrase and almost added an "see also: early correspondence with Voltaire" comment as well. Manteuffel really is quite spot-on in some things and I think his downfall comes because - contrary to what he pretends to Fritz - he does have an agenda and he does flatter himself and his manipulative capabilities a bit too much, and therefore doesn't take everything into account. On the one hand he hypes Fritz up, but on the other he underestimates him. For a change, history works rather well in the storytelling department when the cooling of their relationship is partly caused and exemplified by the "here am I, Manteuffel, the Crown Prince's favoured correspondent and mentor" painting, which seems to have pissed off FW and Fritz both.
the Prince Royal maintaining that he would rather have a wife who made him a cuckold, than to have one who did not know how to keep the conversation going."
This is so very Fritz. And yet another example of him adhering to his belief that the woman cheating in a relationship was not the worst thing in the world. (Does anyone think there's any chance he was hoping, at this early date, she would get pregnant by someone else?)
I think Selena and Mildred mentioned most of it before, but I can reproduce it if you want
I know which one you're talking about, but I wouldn't mind a reminder if you're offering, and I'm sure cahn could use one.
that the woman cheating in a relationship was not the worst thing in the world
He is remarkably consistent on that from very early on, even though I think in this particular instance, it's almost more about the witty quip. And I don't think you needed to know much about EC to realize that she wasn't exactly the type for that in the first place. Be that as it may, I'm not so sure how he'd have felt about raising another man's kid to become his successor - he did have the "there'll always be people who want to rule, no reason for me to procreate" attitude, but a) that's different from raising a kid you aren't related to, and b) he was rather invested in the concept of family and in AW's procreation in particular.
The Manteuffel letter to Brühl:
"[...] it is good to know that most of our letters no longer revolve around poetry and other such trifles, but matters of morality, history, Christianity and other things useful to a young Prince, who has enough discernment to understand that true greatness consists rather in a solid mind and in human feelings, generous and just, than in the importance of rank or in the false brilliance of certain frivolous sciences.
I am convinced without taking pride that if I could have the honor of communicating to Your Excellency all the letters we write to each other, this Prince and I, you would be charmed by his and not disapprove of mine; all the more so as these will all indirectly inspire in him the sentiments of a good ruler, a good neighbor, and a good friend of his friends: or what amounts to the same thing, feelings of humanity, of fairness, and good faith.
I do not know if I make myself believe it too much, but I believe I perceive (and others perceive it even more than me) that my insinuations do not fall to the ground and I dare to flatter myself that if I can continue them for some time, not only the inhabitants of these countries, but all the future neighbors of my correspondent will one day (when I no longer am) have some obligation to me, for having contributed to making him espouse principles so different from those of educational prejudices and bad examples.
Your Excellency will perhaps be surprised that a Prince of his age and naturally subject to some vanity receives my insinuations so well, but it is good that you know that this mainly comes from four causes, 1) his extraordinary eagerness to learn, 2) a little good opinion he has of me, 3) that he is looking at me as a sort of independent and disinterested old man, he is persuaded that I speak or write to him rather by a movement of friendship, not by interest in agendas, and 4) that I never speak or write to him as a teacher, but as a man who only seeks to entertain him, by reporting to him what I say to have read [...]"
Be that as it may, I'm not so sure how he'd have felt about raising another man's kid to become his successor
Same, I'm not sure. And of course, the story that he told EC2 that she should discreetly get pregnant by some guy from an old Prussian noble family is apocryphal. What made me ask that question was the reminder that if she gets pregnant in the 1730s, he gets a lot more money out of FW.
Let's just be glad EC1 wasn't this type, because the last thing any kid (or at least son and heir) needed was Fritz for a father (as opposed to an uncle, which could go either way).
Verily. Here's a story from Weber's collection based on Manteuffel's reports that otoh is more evidence for Fritz, defender of sexual liberty for (noble) women, and otoh evidence for Fritz, all for physical punishment for "disloyal" servants:
"A noble lady, the widow of one of the foremost officials, had incautiously abused and dismissed a maidservant who had been entrusted with many a secret. In revenge, the dismissed maid spread the story of her former mistress having secretly given birth to a child in 1734 already and was expecting again. The King, who learned of the rumor, ordered the lady to either subject herself to a medical examination or pay a punishing fee of 13000 Taler. The lady, who was very rich, nonetheless was thought of as very miserly; she sought to drag the whole affair out and avoid it by removing herself from Berlin. Learning of this, the King ordered her arrest and ordered the fiscus to start proceedings. Thus informed, he lady then chose to pay the entire sum."
FW boasts of this in the Tobacco Parliament and says he already has put the money to good use. Fritz asks Manteuffel whether this has been a just thing to do or whether it wasn't wrong. Manteuffel, who while a PRIVATE CITIZEN still would like to live in Berlin without FW at his throat, says the entire matter is too difficult to judge for old him. Whereupon Fritz speaks thusly.
Very well, I shall be franker towards you. I think it was all dastardly done. The denouncing servant ought to have been whipped by the executioner, and it would have been enough to warn N. discreetly that she ought to be more careful. Those who want to keep their consciience clean ought to have returned the money thus gained.
Man, I keep thinking I should try to read this chapter, but then I remember--I don't have to! You and felis are reading it for me! :D I will try focusing on the things you're not reading.
This, by the way, is - drumroll - Peter's future mother-in-law, Knyphausen's widow, Charlotte Luise! While Weber doesn't give us the name, the entire conversation is also in Seckendorff's Journal (December 6th 1735), who isn't as discreet, plus Kloosterhuis mentions some of it in his Katte book, in the footnote on Peter (171). Kloosterhuis also has an alleged quote from her, where she says since she got pregnant twice (first time: 1734), she got one over on FW for only paying once.
Now, the interesting is that according the Kloosterhuis, the guy she had the affair with was our Schwerin, Generalleutnant Kurt Christopher! But while Kloosterhuis does tend to be reliable, I'm not 100% sure he's right on that one. He also has a sum of 12.000, not 13.000 Thaler, but since Weber specifies that FW kept 12.000 and gave 1000 to the state, this might be where the difference comes from.
There's also a wiki entry on the kid that allegedly came out of this affair, but that one says the father is Oberst Carl Christoph von Schwerin! So I don't know. Lots of rumors surrounding this girl, but she herself went with Charlotte Luise's maiden name, Ilgen, and it would make sense that CL went to the Knyphausen's home estate Jennelt to quietly give birth. What doesn't quite make sense is the birth date, because that should be in 1736, not 1737, given that the Manteuffel-Fritz conversation happened in December 1735.
Found it. I'm amused that this is the way he identifies Peter in the memoirs: son-in-law of the widow who had to pay for having kids. And no, Voltaire, she was not in fact ruined afterwards! No mention of the father or the maid, either.
Despite having read Voltaire’s memors and the Seckendorf diary ages ago, I did not remember this at all! Wow. Hang on, though: if this was Peter’s mother-in-law, doesn’t it put Fritz’ gift of gold to her into a new or at least additional light?
Maybe? I'd never felt I could make a connection, because they're so far apart in time (the gift was 1750). I also assumed the gift was mostly for Peter and using her as the intermediary was more of an excuse, partly because that's how Hanway presents it and partly because Peter gets another gift 3 years later, same time of year.
What's more interesting to me now that I know Fritz was sympathetic to her plight in 1736, is that Hanway says Fritz wasn't in her good graces in 1750!
Well, firstly, given FWs FW-ness in 1736, she didn't necessarily know Fritz was sympathetic in 1736! Saying something to Manteuffel is one thing, talking to her directly another. Also, if I understood this correctly she wasn't in Berlin at the time but in the countryside, and presumably remained there until the pregnancy was over, the kid was born and hopefully the scandal was less. Greeting her upon her return with: Countess, I'm behind you and sorry about the money! would have been rude rather than helpful.
And secondly, as you say, in 1750, much time has passed, and what she did witness in recent years was her son-in-law getting slighted. Still, if she did have a reputation for liking money and being thrifty, the nature of the present could be influenced by this.
Well, firstly, given FWs FW-ness in 1736, she didn't necessarily know Fritz was sympathetic in 1736!
Agreed, I just thought it was interesting that it didn't translate to anything positive after he became king. Agree that Peter was probably a significant reason, and not just the slighting but possibly the war starting. Jordan says:
La Knyphausen is very sad to see that Keith, to whom she has promised her eldest daughter, and whom she regarded as the future support of her family, is about to leave. I believe that she is seeking to retire to her lands in Ost-Frisia, and that she will ask for permission.
Also, if I understood this correctly she wasn't in Berlin at the time but in the countryside
And if she was in Jennelt, she was not just in the countryside but all the way over in East Frisia! East Frisia being where the Knyphausen family came from, and Jennelt one of their estates there, as felis and I found when we researched possible burial places for Peter. Reminder for cahn: East Frisia or East Friesland is near the Netherlands, and won't become Prussian territory until 1744, when the local ruling family dies out and Fritz inherits.
Still, if she did have a reputation for liking money and being thrifty, the nature of the present could be influenced by this.
Indeed, and when felis reminded me that Voltaire said she was ruined, I thought that maybe this rumor started because she complained so much about the fine!
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cahn
Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-09 09:16 pm (UTC)On Fritz marrying EC:
February 28th, 1732: FW, with SD present, asks EC's parents for the marriage, then calls Fritz and asks him if he has any objections? Of course Fritz says no, FW tells him to kiss their hands, EC is called and also asked. FW is so enthusiastic that he tells Fritz to kiss EC, which her father stops, and that he wants them to marry the next week, which Fritz manages to stop ("Let's maybe have an engagement first? A little more decency?" - I have a very hard time imagining Fritz calling out FW on lack of decency, though, so I suspect this might be Manteuffel's phrasing, and I'm also wondering who even is his source here. *side-eye*)
Manteuffel about EC, not quite as good at reading Fritz as he thinks, but mostly this made me sad for EC: “The princess does not displease the Prince Royal in any way, as she is nothing less than ugly or unpleasant. She is blonde and quite tall and shapely for her age. She has a beautiful complexion, although still a little blurred by the smallpox spots, large blue eyes and facial features resembling those of her brother the hereditary Prince. Her temper seems sweet and however difficult it may be to judge the character of a girl who finds herself under the iron of a rigorous mother, I believe she is much more inclined to joy than to sadness. It is true that she seems a little shy and embarrassed, but as she is by no means so when she finds herself among people of acquaintance, we must not doubt that she will soon become more daring and freer, when she will have free elbows. She will do very well, the Prince Royal maintaining that he would rather have a wife who made him a cuckold, than to have one who did not know how to keep the conversation going."
Weber: However, the satisfaction which Manteuffel thinks the prince found in the bride appointed for him must have been very temporary; other circumstances and "escapades" of the young prince probably had a disturbing effect. Manteuffel sometimes writes his reports about these with such a slippery pen that we cannot reproduce them here.*
*FN: We can also find something similar from later times, especially from 1740 and concerning certain evening parties, called "parties de chauvesouris", which are said to have been very -- colorful.
Me: Noooo. Why are all you guys so easily embarrassed, but then start wars that destroy the primary sources? SIGH.
(Also, I was a bit confused as this point, because I thought that Manteuffel didn't start his regular reports from Berlin until 1734, but Droysen says he split his time between Pomerania, Berlin, and Leipzig between 1730 and 1733, so I guess that checks out?)
Weber says he was also present during the engagement party on March 10th - together with FS and 300 other guests - and reported the looked very subdued and had tears in his eyes when rings were exchanged bit.
EC supposedly told FW early on that Fritz didn't touch her? I'm kind of side-eyeing that as well tbh. On the other hand, we do know that the topic was hot at the end of 1735. Fritz apparently threw a party for EC's birthday on November 8th to smooth things over, but FW still had the new bed made for them (from green velvet), as we have heard before. Manteuffel: "a new conjugal bed will be made for the prince, the former being occupied, it is said, by some Asmodee or spell, which prevents procreation." And later: "The King demanded from his son an oath, that he would live with his wife as a true husband, that he would consummate the marriage, that he would not make a separate bed. The Prince's refusal put the King in such a fit of fury, that the son was forced to retire."
Manteuffel comment when sending a Fritz letter on to Brühl: "The letter [...] does not contain anything important, but I thought I should communicate it to you, because it can be used to show a part of the character of the author, which is to have a lot of spirit and reading, to flatter himself by showing it [se piquer a faire parade], enjoying himself in making people feel he has some, and to be extraordinarily polite in his letters in order to attract reciprocal incense."
On another occasion: "It is a pity that this Prince is surrounded only by young officers, most of them very brainless and ignorant, when he is in his regiment, where he spends most of his time to please the King, his father; it is certain, that if he haunted only wise and intelligent people, he would become one of the beautiful geniuses of his time and would easily correct several small faults, for which he is still responsible both on the side of the heart and on the side of the mind."
He also includes a copy of his own answer, commenting that given all the "douceurs" Fritz wrote him, he gave back in kind. And boy, did he lay it on thick indeed - such a pity that Fritz is destined to become a protector of authors and not an author himself, and what is he going to love outside of himself if he wants to hate all imperfection, etc etc ...
Weber: Alas, all the honey he collected for the Prince didn't agree with Manteuffel, turning sour, as this is what he writes in his next report: "I am delighted that he has come [back to Berlin], this correspondence cost me more trouble than all the others I maintain."
Finally, Manteuffel's self-congratulatory "Europe will thank me for teaching him the right morals once I'm dead, plus four reasons why the crown prince likes me" letter is a thing to behold. (I think Selena and Mildred mentioned most of it before, but I can reproduce it if you want.) I'm sure Europe was very thankful indeed, Manteuffel. :P I'm also not surprised that your relationship with Fritz didn't last long.
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-09 11:16 pm (UTC)Me: Noooo. Why are all you guys so easily embarrassed, but then start wars that destroy the primary sources? SIGH.
Well, quite, though thankfully Seckendorff the nephew and his secret diary preserved some of Manteuffel’s more explicit comments on this subject, to wit, reminder and quote from my Seckendorff write-up. Seckendorff says Le Diable does advise Fritz to put more of an effort into the marital relationship:
(...)because it would make your state now happier, and would save you from many future worries, because when we see that You have no lineage, we will marry your brother Wilhelm, and then the scheming and plotting will be inevitable" .
Junior agreed to all this; "But", he said, "I can't embrace my wife with passion, and when I sleep with her, I do it rather out of duty than by inclination."
Mantteuffel points out that the earth would be barren if the only children born were born to couples who loved each other, and hey, gird your loins, she's got at least a nice exterior?
Junior: ,, This is true, her form is very pretty; but I have never been in love with her. However, I should be the last man, in the world if I didn't esteem her: because she has a very sweet nature, a more docile woman one cannot imagine, she's excessively compliant, and hastens to do everything she believes can please me. Also, she can't complain that I'm not sleeping with her. I truly don't know why there isn't a child there already."
In case Seckendorff Jr. is slow on the uptake, Manteuffel has a literary hint for him:
The Devil makes me read the Roman History of Des Echarts and points out the character of Junior, who is the same as that of Emperor Hadrian.
Seckendorff has a non-Diable source as well for FW thinking Fritz needs more encouragement re: marital sex: Biberius tells me about the secrets, that Junior confided in Pöllnitz. The King encourages him to produce children, had him made a marital bed out of velvet. Biberius does not believe, that Junior will survive the father, but that pessimus Wilhelmus will succeed one day.
So maybe it’ll all FW’s paranoia, but while I don’t think EC made a deliberate “he’s not having much sex with me!” Complaint, I can see her having accidentally let something slip when FW in his crude way asks her when he can expect his grandkid, or something like that. It would have been enough for her to react embarassed/shy and start to stutter for him to assume the worst.
it can be used to show a part of the character of the author, which is to have a lot of spirit and reading, to flatter himself by showing it [se piquer a faire parade], enjoying himself in making people feel he has some, and to be extraordinarily polite in his letters in order to attract reciprocal incense."
That’s actually a pretty good description of Fritzian letters, especially from the Crown Prince phase. And I do love the phrase “reciprocal incense”, which immediately brings to mind the early “you’re the greatest”/“no, you’re the greatest!” Exchanges with Voltaire. And not just Voltaire. Laying it on thick is pretty much standard for Algarotti or indeed Suhm in the later 30s when writing to Fritz, isn’t it?
Manteuffel getting his impact on Fritz wrong: obviously, though Bronisch points out that even the Wolff question totally aside, he’s actually reading at this point what Manteuffel recs, and includes in his very first letter to Voltaire a Manteuffel edited book as a gift to reccomend himself to Voltaire. Meaning that Manteuffel isn’t completely wrong about having made an impression at this point in time. And let’s not forget, he does seem to have had a knack for mentoring people and leaving life long fond impressions (see also Formey and Des Champs singing his praises decades after the man is dead, when not many other than they would still know who he’d been and there is no one to impress by mentioning him), and unlike with many nobles, his intellectual cedits weren’t just superficial. He didn’t just have the complete university education instead which Prussian princes wouldn’t get until much much later, he kept up contact with his alma mater in Leipzig and the scholars there, provided funds for students there (which speaks of a genuine interest in the future beyond “how will I and my backers profit?”), and does things like translating Horace from Latin to French in his spare time for fun.
Of course, he’s also exactly the kind of smooth, wily and bribery spreading envoy showing up in the Anti Machiavell under the “not to be trusted, though definitely to be employed against others” headline, and while I doubt Fritz knew the full extent of how many people around him Manteuffel had bribed (see also: Manteuffel getting reports from the Straßburg trip, most likely from young Wartensleben who makes it on the list of six people Fritz says he loves and recommends to AW in the event of his death in the first Silesian War) , he probably had a good idea about some. (Including “I was framed by Seckendorff Jr.!” Protester Des Champs.) (BTW, looking up old write ups has reminded me that Manteuffel was able to take over Grumbkow’s network in 1739 after his death.) And of course Fritz would resent any attempt at manipulation he noticed.
Given that Manteuffel didn’t have a high opinion of princes in general - In a letter to Christian Wolff himself from June 16th 1738, Manteuffel wrote that two thirds of the princes in the HRE had shown themselves to be worse than useless plagues of humanity and called them "prètendus Dieux terrestres“ - and given those he personally knew in Saxony, Denmark, Hannover and Prussia, I think he did truly see Fritz as the one with the most potential, but as Louise Gottsched correctly points out to him in a letter before Silesia 1 even starts, the whole roi philosophe idea is questionable. Otoh, the Fritzian reasoning of why kings came into being and are necessary in The Anti-Machiavell actually does not sound unlike what Manteuffel according to Bronish wrote just a bit earlier. Quoting from the Bronisch write up: In an unpublished treatise on how to educate a prince, written in the later 1730s, he wrote that absolute monarchical power was subject to the "Loix de la Nature et de la raison", and the monarchs needed to respect the laws of nature and reason all the more because they were carrying the responsibility for "le bien de la societé"; only this provides in Manteuffel's unpublished opinion a legitimization to the institution of kings at all, "l'unique fin de leur institution". Otherwise there is no point to kings.
=> He probably did say something like this to Fritz, or wrote it in one of the many letters not surviving.
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-10 11:29 pm (UTC)HAHAHAHA, I laughed out loud. :D
But let's remind everyone of the juicy quote that would definitely have embarrassed your average 19th-early 20th century editor, but which Blanning is happy to reproduce in 2016:
[Seckendorff Jr.] recorded in June 1735: “Friedrich Wartensleben has confided in me that Junior [Frederick] fucks his wife in the afternoon and says that she has a lovely body and a beautiful arse.” In the following month Wartensleben confirmed that Frederick was sleeping with her.
Blanning also adds, in relation to the "I can't embrace my wife with passion" discussion with Manteuffel,
Seckendorf recorded this exchange as if it had been a conversation which Manteuffel had then told him about. In reality, there had been an exchange of letters. On 26 August 1736 Manteuffel had written to Frederick to urge him to produce an heir, adding that this was what all his friends wanted. He also expressed the hope that the settled life at Rheinsberg—to which Frederick and Elizabeth Christine had just moved—would be more conducive to conception than the previous short and hurried encounters necessitated by Frederick’s garrison duties at Ruppin and his wife’s residence at Berlin. In his reply, dated Rheinsberg, 23 September, Frederick made no mention of his feelings for his wife, merely writing: “I am very obliged to you for your concern about my propagation, and I have the same destiny as the stags who are presently in rut; in nine months from now there may happen what you ask for.” Even if it did not, there was nothing to worry about: “Kingdoms always find successors and there has never been a case of a throne remaining empty.” Had there been a conversation such as that recorded by Seckendorf as well as this exchange of letters? All that can be stated with certainty is that Frederick wished Manteuffel—and thus his father—to know that he was doing his best to produce an heir.
I have to say, proactively writing:
Even if it did not, there was nothing to worry about
has always made me think that he was doing the bare minimum, if that. Set those expectations low, Fritz!
Laying it on thick is pretty much standard for Algarotti or indeed Suhm in the later 30s when writing to Fritz, isn’t it?
Preuss doesn't give us any letters from Algarotti until 1742, when he'd already done his first Frexit and was in Dresden (and they only met in August or September 1739, so there wasn't a whole lot of time for letters in the late 1730s), but Suhm, GOD YES. To the point where only looking at his actions gives me any confidence he wasn't just flattering out of self-interest: most especially his decision to set off for Berlin, even knowing that the trip would be detrimental to his health (as he later wrote to Fritz, and as it turned out).
Of course, he’s also exactly the kind of smooth, wily and bribery spreading envoy showing up in the Anti Machiavell under the “not to be trusted, though definitely to be employed against others” headline,
Yes indeed. This is why I was going to use him as my Poirot stand-in in the "everyone stabs FW" AU. ;) He may not be able to get everyone to confide in him, but he doesn't need to--he has spies!
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 01:28 pm (UTC)has always made me think that he was doing the bare minimum, if that. Set those expectations low, Fritz!
Definitely! Not the worst strategy I guess.
And yeah, we do have more sources on the EC/sex part, but what I hadn't heard of before: the 1740 "bat parties". Did anybody else mention those?
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-12 03:57 pm (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-13 05:30 am (UTC)has always made me think that he was doing the bare minimum, if that. Set those expectations low, Fritz!
Definitely! Not the worst strategy I guess.
ahahaha, I just always imagine him doing the deed once and being like, "welp, okay! Seems to have worked for my parents, apparently worked for Wilhelmine, hopefully it works for me, not doing that again!"
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-13 03:13 pm (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 12:25 pm (UTC)Yeah, I too loved that phrase and almost added an "see also: early correspondence with Voltaire" comment as well. Manteuffel really is quite spot-on in some things and I think his downfall comes because - contrary to what he pretends to Fritz - he does have an agenda and he does flatter himself and his manipulative capabilities a bit too much, and therefore doesn't take everything into account. On the one hand he hypes Fritz up, but on the other he underestimates him. For a change, history works rather well in the storytelling department when the cooling of their relationship is partly caused and exemplified by the "here am I, Manteuffel, the Crown Prince's favoured correspondent and mentor" painting, which seems to have pissed off FW and Fritz both.
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 01:36 am (UTC)This is so very Fritz. And yet another example of him adhering to his belief that the woman cheating in a relationship was not the worst thing in the world. (Does anyone think there's any chance he was hoping, at this early date, she would get pregnant by someone else?)
I think Selena and Mildred mentioned most of it before, but I can reproduce it if you want
I know which one you're talking about, but I wouldn't mind a reminder if you're offering, and I'm sure
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 11:55 am (UTC)He is remarkably consistent on that from very early on, even though I think in this particular instance, it's almost more about the witty quip. And I don't think you needed to know much about EC to realize that she wasn't exactly the type for that in the first place. Be that as it may, I'm not so sure how he'd have felt about raising another man's kid to become his successor - he did have the "there'll always be people who want to rule, no reason for me to procreate" attitude, but a) that's different from raising a kid you aren't related to, and b) he was rather invested in the concept of family and in AW's procreation in particular.
The Manteuffel letter to Brühl:
"[...] it is good to know that most of our letters no longer revolve around poetry and other such trifles, but matters of morality, history, Christianity and other things useful to a young Prince, who has enough discernment to understand that true greatness consists rather in a solid mind and in human feelings, generous and just, than in the importance of rank or in the false brilliance of certain frivolous sciences.
I am convinced without taking pride that if I could have the honor of communicating to Your Excellency all the letters we write to each other, this Prince and I, you would be charmed by his and not disapprove of mine; all the more so as these will all indirectly inspire in him the sentiments of a good ruler, a good neighbor, and a good friend of his friends: or what amounts to the same thing, feelings of humanity, of fairness, and good faith.
I do not know if I make myself believe it too much, but I believe I perceive (and others perceive it even more than me) that my insinuations do not fall to the ground and I dare to flatter myself that if I can continue them for some time, not only the inhabitants of these countries, but all the future neighbors of my correspondent will one day (when I no longer am) have some obligation to me, for having contributed to making him espouse principles so different from those of educational prejudices and bad examples.
Your Excellency will perhaps be surprised that a Prince of his age and naturally subject to some vanity receives my insinuations so well, but it is good that you know that this mainly comes from four causes,
1) his extraordinary eagerness to learn,
2) a little good opinion he has of me,
3) that he is looking at me as a sort of independent and disinterested old man, he is persuaded that I speak or write to him rather by a movement of friendship, not by interest in agendas,
and 4) that I never speak or write to him as a teacher, but as a man who only seeks to entertain him, by reporting to him what I say to have read [...]"
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 02:44 pm (UTC)Same, I'm not sure. And of course, the story that he told EC2 that she should discreetly get pregnant by some guy from an old Prussian noble family is apocryphal. What made me ask that question was the reminder that if she gets pregnant in the 1730s, he gets a lot more money out of FW.
Let's just be glad EC1 wasn't this type, because the last thing any kid (or at least son and heir) needed was Fritz for a father (as opposed to an uncle, which could go either way).
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 03:05 pm (UTC)"A noble lady, the widow of one of the foremost officials, had incautiously abused and dismissed a maidservant who had been entrusted with many a secret. In revenge, the dismissed maid spread the story of her former mistress having secretly given birth to a child in 1734 already and was expecting again. The King, who learned of the rumor, ordered the lady to either subject herself to a medical examination or pay a punishing fee of 13000 Taler. The lady, who was very rich, nonetheless was thought of as very miserly; she sought to drag the whole affair out and avoid it by removing herself from Berlin. Learning of this, the King ordered her arrest and ordered the fiscus to start proceedings. Thus informed, he lady then chose to pay the entire sum."
FW boasts of this in the Tobacco Parliament and says he already has put the money to good use. Fritz asks Manteuffel whether this has been a just thing to do or whether it wasn't wrong. Manteuffel, who while a PRIVATE CITIZEN still would like to live in Berlin without FW at his throat, says the entire matter is too difficult to judge for old him. Whereupon Fritz speaks thusly.
Very well, I shall be franker towards you. I think it was all dastardly done. The denouncing servant ought to have been whipped by the executioner, and it would have been enough to warn N. discreetly that she ought to be more careful. Those who want to keep their consciience clean ought to have returned the money thus gained.
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 03:58 pm (UTC)Man, I keep thinking I should try to read this chapter, but then I remember--I don't have to! You and
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 05:47 pm (UTC)This, by the way, is - drumroll - Peter's future mother-in-law, Knyphausen's widow, Charlotte Luise! While Weber doesn't give us the name, the entire conversation is also in Seckendorff's Journal (December 6th 1735), who isn't as discreet, plus Kloosterhuis mentions some of it in his Katte book, in the footnote on Peter (171). Kloosterhuis also has an alleged quote from her, where she says since she got pregnant twice (first time: 1734), she got one over on FW for only paying once.
Now, the interesting is that according the Kloosterhuis, the guy she had the affair with was our Schwerin, Generalleutnant Kurt Christopher! But while Kloosterhuis does tend to be reliable, I'm not 100% sure he's right on that one. He also has a sum of 12.000, not 13.000 Thaler, but since Weber specifies that FW kept 12.000 and gave 1000 to the state, this might be where the difference comes from.
There's also a wiki entry on the kid that allegedly came out of this affair, but that one says the father is Oberst Carl Christoph von Schwerin! So I don't know. Lots of rumors surrounding this girl, but she herself went with Charlotte Luise's maiden name, Ilgen, and it would make sense that CL went to the Knyphausen's home estate Jennelt to quietly give birth. What doesn't quite make sense is the birth date, because that should be in 1736, not 1737, given that the Manteuffel-Fritz conversation happened in December 1735.
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 05:59 pm (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 06:04 pm (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-13 12:32 am (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 06:31 pm (UTC)Wait, I didn't know that! By name?
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 06:32 pm (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 06:46 pm (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 08:02 pm (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-12 01:15 am (UTC)What's more interesting to me now that I know Fritz was sympathetic to her plight in 1736, is that Hanway says Fritz wasn't in her good graces in 1750!
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-12 04:17 am (UTC)And secondly, as you say, in 1750, much time has passed, and what she did witness in recent years was her son-in-law getting slighted. Still, if she did have a reputation for liking money and being thrifty, the nature of the present could be influenced by this.
Baroness von Knyphausen
Date: 2022-01-12 03:51 pm (UTC)Agreed, I just thought it was interesting that it didn't translate to anything positive after he became king. Agree that Peter was probably a significant reason, and not just the slighting but possibly the war starting. Jordan says:
La Knyphausen is very sad to see that Keith, to whom she has promised her eldest daughter, and whom she regarded as the future support of her family, is about to leave. I believe that she is seeking to retire to her lands in Ost-Frisia, and that she will ask for permission.
Also, if I understood this correctly she wasn't in Berlin at the time but in the countryside
And if she was in Jennelt, she was not just in the countryside but all the way over in East Frisia! East Frisia being where the Knyphausen family came from, and Jennelt one of their estates there, as
Still, if she did have a reputation for liking money and being thrifty, the nature of the present could be influenced by this.
Indeed, and when