Me: Noooo. Why are all you guys so easily embarrassed, but then start wars that destroy the primary sources? SIGH.
Well, quite, though thankfully Seckendorff the nephew and his secret diary preserved some of Manteuffel’s more explicit comments on this subject, to wit, reminder and quote from my Seckendorff write-up. Seckendorff says Le Diable does advise Fritz to put more of an effort into the marital relationship:
(...)because it would make your state now happier, and would save you from many future worries, because when we see that You have no lineage, we will marry your brother Wilhelm, and then the scheming and plotting will be inevitable" .
Junior agreed to all this; "But", he said, "I can't embrace my wife with passion, and when I sleep with her, I do it rather out of duty than by inclination."
Mantteuffel points out that the earth would be barren if the only children born were born to couples who loved each other, and hey, gird your loins, she's got at least a nice exterior?
Junior: ,, This is true, her form is very pretty; but I have never been in love with her. However, I should be the last man, in the world if I didn't esteem her: because she has a very sweet nature, a more docile woman one cannot imagine, she's excessively compliant, and hastens to do everything she believes can please me. Also, she can't complain that I'm not sleeping with her. I truly don't know why there isn't a child there already."
In case Seckendorff Jr. is slow on the uptake, Manteuffel has a literary hint for him:
The Devil makes me read the Roman History of Des Echarts and points out the character of Junior, who is the same as that of Emperor Hadrian.
Seckendorff has a non-Diable source as well for FW thinking Fritz needs more encouragement re: marital sex: Biberius tells me about the secrets, that Junior confided in Pöllnitz. The King encourages him to produce children, had him made a marital bed out of velvet. Biberius does not believe, that Junior will survive the father, but that pessimus Wilhelmus will succeed one day.
So maybe it’ll all FW’s paranoia, but while I don’t think EC made a deliberate “he’s not having much sex with me!” Complaint, I can see her having accidentally let something slip when FW in his crude way asks her when he can expect his grandkid, or something like that. It would have been enough for her to react embarassed/shy and start to stutter for him to assume the worst.
it can be used to show a part of the character of the author, which is to have a lot of spirit and reading, to flatter himself by showing it [se piquer a faire parade], enjoying himself in making people feel he has some, and to be extraordinarily polite in his letters in order to attract reciprocal incense."
That’s actually a pretty good description of Fritzian letters, especially from the Crown Prince phase. And I do love the phrase “reciprocal incense”, which immediately brings to mind the early “you’re the greatest”/“no, you’re the greatest!” Exchanges with Voltaire. And not just Voltaire. Laying it on thick is pretty much standard for Algarotti or indeed Suhm in the later 30s when writing to Fritz, isn’t it?
Manteuffel getting his impact on Fritz wrong: obviously, though Bronisch points out that even the Wolff question totally aside, he’s actually reading at this point what Manteuffel recs, and includes in his very first letter to Voltaire a Manteuffel edited book as a gift to reccomend himself to Voltaire. Meaning that Manteuffel isn’t completely wrong about having made an impression at this point in time. And let’s not forget, he does seem to have had a knack for mentoring people and leaving life long fond impressions (see also Formey and Des Champs singing his praises decades after the man is dead, when not many other than they would still know who he’d been and there is no one to impress by mentioning him), and unlike with many nobles, his intellectual cedits weren’t just superficial. He didn’t just have the complete university education instead which Prussian princes wouldn’t get until much much later, he kept up contact with his alma mater in Leipzig and the scholars there, provided funds for students there (which speaks of a genuine interest in the future beyond “how will I and my backers profit?”), and does things like translating Horace from Latin to French in his spare time for fun.
Of course, he’s also exactly the kind of smooth, wily and bribery spreading envoy showing up in the Anti Machiavell under the “not to be trusted, though definitely to be employed against others” headline, and while I doubt Fritz knew the full extent of how many people around him Manteuffel had bribed (see also: Manteuffel getting reports from the Straßburg trip, most likely from young Wartensleben who makes it on the list of six people Fritz says he loves and recommends to AW in the event of his death in the first Silesian War) , he probably had a good idea about some. (Including “I was framed by Seckendorff Jr.!” Protester Des Champs.) (BTW, looking up old write ups has reminded me that Manteuffel was able to take over Grumbkow’s network in 1739 after his death.) And of course Fritz would resent any attempt at manipulation he noticed.
Given that Manteuffel didn’t have a high opinion of princes in general - In a letter to Christian Wolff himself from June 16th 1738, Manteuffel wrote that two thirds of the princes in the HRE had shown themselves to be worse than useless plagues of humanity and called them "prètendus Dieux terrestres“ - and given those he personally knew in Saxony, Denmark, Hannover and Prussia, I think he did truly see Fritz as the one with the most potential, but as Louise Gottsched correctly points out to him in a letter before Silesia 1 even starts, the whole roi philosophe idea is questionable. Otoh, the Fritzian reasoning of why kings came into being and are necessary in The Anti-Machiavell actually does not sound unlike what Manteuffel according to Bronish wrote just a bit earlier. Quoting from the Bronisch write up: In an unpublished treatise on how to educate a prince, written in the later 1730s, he wrote that absolute monarchical power was subject to the "Loix de la Nature et de la raison", and the monarchs needed to respect the laws of nature and reason all the more because they were carrying the responsibility for "le bien de la societé"; only this provides in Manteuffel's unpublished opinion a legitimization to the institution of kings at all, "l'unique fin de leur institution". Otherwise there is no point to kings.
=> He probably did say something like this to Fritz, or wrote it in one of the many letters not surviving.
Me: Noooo. Why are all you guys so easily embarrassed, but then start wars that destroy the primary sources? SIGH.
HAHAHAHA, I laughed out loud. :D
But let's remind everyone of the juicy quote that would definitely have embarrassed your average 19th-early 20th century editor, but which Blanning is happy to reproduce in 2016:
[Seckendorff Jr.] recorded in June 1735: “Friedrich Wartensleben has confided in me that Junior [Frederick] fucks his wife in the afternoon and says that she has a lovely body and a beautiful arse.” In the following month Wartensleben confirmed that Frederick was sleeping with her.
Blanning also adds, in relation to the "I can't embrace my wife with passion" discussion with Manteuffel,
Seckendorf recorded this exchange as if it had been a conversation which Manteuffel had then told him about. In reality, there had been an exchange of letters. On 26 August 1736 Manteuffel had written to Frederick to urge him to produce an heir, adding that this was what all his friends wanted. He also expressed the hope that the settled life at Rheinsberg—to which Frederick and Elizabeth Christine had just moved—would be more conducive to conception than the previous short and hurried encounters necessitated by Frederick’s garrison duties at Ruppin and his wife’s residence at Berlin. In his reply, dated Rheinsberg, 23 September, Frederick made no mention of his feelings for his wife, merely writing: “I am very obliged to you for your concern about my propagation, and I have the same destiny as the stags who are presently in rut; in nine months from now there may happen what you ask for.” Even if it did not, there was nothing to worry about: “Kingdoms always find successors and there has never been a case of a throne remaining empty.” Had there been a conversation such as that recorded by Seckendorf as well as this exchange of letters? All that can be stated with certainty is that Frederick wished Manteuffel—and thus his father—to know that he was doing his best to produce an heir.
I have to say, proactively writing:
Even if it did not, there was nothing to worry about
has always made me think that he was doing the bare minimum, if that. Set those expectations low, Fritz!
Laying it on thick is pretty much standard for Algarotti or indeed Suhm in the later 30s when writing to Fritz, isn’t it?
Preuss doesn't give us any letters from Algarotti until 1742, when he'd already done his first Frexit and was in Dresden (and they only met in August or September 1739, so there wasn't a whole lot of time for letters in the late 1730s), but Suhm, GOD YES. To the point where only looking at his actions gives me any confidence he wasn't just flattering out of self-interest: most especially his decision to set off for Berlin, even knowing that the trip would be detrimental to his health (as he later wrote to Fritz, and as it turned out).
Of course, he’s also exactly the kind of smooth, wily and bribery spreading envoy showing up in the Anti Machiavell under the “not to be trusted, though definitely to be employed against others” headline,
Yes indeed. This is why I was going to use him as my Poirot stand-in in the "everyone stabs FW" AU. ;) He may not be able to get everyone to confide in him, but he doesn't need to--he has spies!
Even if it did not, there was nothing to worry about
has always made me think that he was doing the bare minimum, if that. Set those expectations low, Fritz!
Definitely! Not the worst strategy I guess.
ahahaha, I just always imagine him doing the deed once and being like, "welp, okay! Seems to have worked for my parents, apparently worked for Wilhelmine, hopefully it works for me, not doing that again!"
That’s actually a pretty good description of Fritzian letters, especially from the Crown Prince phase. And I do love the phrase “reciprocal incense”
Yeah, I too loved that phrase and almost added an "see also: early correspondence with Voltaire" comment as well. Manteuffel really is quite spot-on in some things and I think his downfall comes because - contrary to what he pretends to Fritz - he does have an agenda and he does flatter himself and his manipulative capabilities a bit too much, and therefore doesn't take everything into account. On the one hand he hypes Fritz up, but on the other he underestimates him. For a change, history works rather well in the storytelling department when the cooling of their relationship is partly caused and exemplified by the "here am I, Manteuffel, the Crown Prince's favoured correspondent and mentor" painting, which seems to have pissed off FW and Fritz both.
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Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-09 11:16 pm (UTC)Me: Noooo. Why are all you guys so easily embarrassed, but then start wars that destroy the primary sources? SIGH.
Well, quite, though thankfully Seckendorff the nephew and his secret diary preserved some of Manteuffel’s more explicit comments on this subject, to wit, reminder and quote from my Seckendorff write-up. Seckendorff says Le Diable does advise Fritz to put more of an effort into the marital relationship:
(...)because it would make your state now happier, and would save you from many future worries, because when we see that You have no lineage, we will marry your brother Wilhelm, and then the scheming and plotting will be inevitable" .
Junior agreed to all this; "But", he said, "I can't embrace my wife with passion, and when I sleep with her, I do it rather out of duty than by inclination."
Mantteuffel points out that the earth would be barren if the only children born were born to couples who loved each other, and hey, gird your loins, she's got at least a nice exterior?
Junior: ,, This is true, her form is very pretty; but I have never been in love with her. However, I should be the last man, in the world if I didn't esteem her: because she has a very sweet nature, a more docile woman one cannot imagine, she's excessively compliant, and hastens to do everything she believes can please me. Also, she can't complain that I'm not sleeping with her. I truly don't know why there isn't a child there already."
In case Seckendorff Jr. is slow on the uptake, Manteuffel has a literary hint for him:
The Devil makes me read the Roman History of Des Echarts and points out the character of Junior, who is the same as that of Emperor Hadrian.
Seckendorff has a non-Diable source as well for FW thinking Fritz needs more encouragement re: marital sex: Biberius tells me about the secrets, that Junior confided in Pöllnitz. The King encourages him to produce children, had him made a marital bed out of velvet. Biberius does not believe, that Junior will survive the father, but that pessimus Wilhelmus will succeed one day.
So maybe it’ll all FW’s paranoia, but while I don’t think EC made a deliberate “he’s not having much sex with me!” Complaint, I can see her having accidentally let something slip when FW in his crude way asks her when he can expect his grandkid, or something like that. It would have been enough for her to react embarassed/shy and start to stutter for him to assume the worst.
it can be used to show a part of the character of the author, which is to have a lot of spirit and reading, to flatter himself by showing it [se piquer a faire parade], enjoying himself in making people feel he has some, and to be extraordinarily polite in his letters in order to attract reciprocal incense."
That’s actually a pretty good description of Fritzian letters, especially from the Crown Prince phase. And I do love the phrase “reciprocal incense”, which immediately brings to mind the early “you’re the greatest”/“no, you’re the greatest!” Exchanges with Voltaire. And not just Voltaire. Laying it on thick is pretty much standard for Algarotti or indeed Suhm in the later 30s when writing to Fritz, isn’t it?
Manteuffel getting his impact on Fritz wrong: obviously, though Bronisch points out that even the Wolff question totally aside, he’s actually reading at this point what Manteuffel recs, and includes in his very first letter to Voltaire a Manteuffel edited book as a gift to reccomend himself to Voltaire. Meaning that Manteuffel isn’t completely wrong about having made an impression at this point in time. And let’s not forget, he does seem to have had a knack for mentoring people and leaving life long fond impressions (see also Formey and Des Champs singing his praises decades after the man is dead, when not many other than they would still know who he’d been and there is no one to impress by mentioning him), and unlike with many nobles, his intellectual cedits weren’t just superficial. He didn’t just have the complete university education instead which Prussian princes wouldn’t get until much much later, he kept up contact with his alma mater in Leipzig and the scholars there, provided funds for students there (which speaks of a genuine interest in the future beyond “how will I and my backers profit?”), and does things like translating Horace from Latin to French in his spare time for fun.
Of course, he’s also exactly the kind of smooth, wily and bribery spreading envoy showing up in the Anti Machiavell under the “not to be trusted, though definitely to be employed against others” headline, and while I doubt Fritz knew the full extent of how many people around him Manteuffel had bribed (see also: Manteuffel getting reports from the Straßburg trip, most likely from young Wartensleben who makes it on the list of six people Fritz says he loves and recommends to AW in the event of his death in the first Silesian War) , he probably had a good idea about some. (Including “I was framed by Seckendorff Jr.!” Protester Des Champs.) (BTW, looking up old write ups has reminded me that Manteuffel was able to take over Grumbkow’s network in 1739 after his death.) And of course Fritz would resent any attempt at manipulation he noticed.
Given that Manteuffel didn’t have a high opinion of princes in general - In a letter to Christian Wolff himself from June 16th 1738, Manteuffel wrote that two thirds of the princes in the HRE had shown themselves to be worse than useless plagues of humanity and called them "prètendus Dieux terrestres“ - and given those he personally knew in Saxony, Denmark, Hannover and Prussia, I think he did truly see Fritz as the one with the most potential, but as Louise Gottsched correctly points out to him in a letter before Silesia 1 even starts, the whole roi philosophe idea is questionable. Otoh, the Fritzian reasoning of why kings came into being and are necessary in The Anti-Machiavell actually does not sound unlike what Manteuffel according to Bronish wrote just a bit earlier. Quoting from the Bronisch write up: In an unpublished treatise on how to educate a prince, written in the later 1730s, he wrote that absolute monarchical power was subject to the "Loix de la Nature et de la raison", and the monarchs needed to respect the laws of nature and reason all the more because they were carrying the responsibility for "le bien de la societé"; only this provides in Manteuffel's unpublished opinion a legitimization to the institution of kings at all, "l'unique fin de leur institution". Otherwise there is no point to kings.
=> He probably did say something like this to Fritz, or wrote it in one of the many letters not surviving.
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-10 11:29 pm (UTC)HAHAHAHA, I laughed out loud. :D
But let's remind everyone of the juicy quote that would definitely have embarrassed your average 19th-early 20th century editor, but which Blanning is happy to reproduce in 2016:
[Seckendorff Jr.] recorded in June 1735: “Friedrich Wartensleben has confided in me that Junior [Frederick] fucks his wife in the afternoon and says that she has a lovely body and a beautiful arse.” In the following month Wartensleben confirmed that Frederick was sleeping with her.
Blanning also adds, in relation to the "I can't embrace my wife with passion" discussion with Manteuffel,
Seckendorf recorded this exchange as if it had been a conversation which Manteuffel had then told him about. In reality, there had been an exchange of letters. On 26 August 1736 Manteuffel had written to Frederick to urge him to produce an heir, adding that this was what all his friends wanted. He also expressed the hope that the settled life at Rheinsberg—to which Frederick and Elizabeth Christine had just moved—would be more conducive to conception than the previous short and hurried encounters necessitated by Frederick’s garrison duties at Ruppin and his wife’s residence at Berlin. In his reply, dated Rheinsberg, 23 September, Frederick made no mention of his feelings for his wife, merely writing: “I am very obliged to you for your concern about my propagation, and I have the same destiny as the stags who are presently in rut; in nine months from now there may happen what you ask for.” Even if it did not, there was nothing to worry about: “Kingdoms always find successors and there has never been a case of a throne remaining empty.” Had there been a conversation such as that recorded by Seckendorf as well as this exchange of letters? All that can be stated with certainty is that Frederick wished Manteuffel—and thus his father—to know that he was doing his best to produce an heir.
I have to say, proactively writing:
Even if it did not, there was nothing to worry about
has always made me think that he was doing the bare minimum, if that. Set those expectations low, Fritz!
Laying it on thick is pretty much standard for Algarotti or indeed Suhm in the later 30s when writing to Fritz, isn’t it?
Preuss doesn't give us any letters from Algarotti until 1742, when he'd already done his first Frexit and was in Dresden (and they only met in August or September 1739, so there wasn't a whole lot of time for letters in the late 1730s), but Suhm, GOD YES. To the point where only looking at his actions gives me any confidence he wasn't just flattering out of self-interest: most especially his decision to set off for Berlin, even knowing that the trip would be detrimental to his health (as he later wrote to Fritz, and as it turned out).
Of course, he’s also exactly the kind of smooth, wily and bribery spreading envoy showing up in the Anti Machiavell under the “not to be trusted, though definitely to be employed against others” headline,
Yes indeed. This is why I was going to use him as my Poirot stand-in in the "everyone stabs FW" AU. ;) He may not be able to get everyone to confide in him, but he doesn't need to--he has spies!
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 01:28 pm (UTC)has always made me think that he was doing the bare minimum, if that. Set those expectations low, Fritz!
Definitely! Not the worst strategy I guess.
And yeah, we do have more sources on the EC/sex part, but what I hadn't heard of before: the 1740 "bat parties". Did anybody else mention those?
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-12 03:57 pm (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-13 05:30 am (UTC)has always made me think that he was doing the bare minimum, if that. Set those expectations low, Fritz!
Definitely! Not the worst strategy I guess.
ahahaha, I just always imagine him doing the deed once and being like, "welp, okay! Seems to have worked for my parents, apparently worked for Wilhelmine, hopefully it works for me, not doing that again!"
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-13 03:13 pm (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 12:25 pm (UTC)Yeah, I too loved that phrase and almost added an "see also: early correspondence with Voltaire" comment as well. Manteuffel really is quite spot-on in some things and I think his downfall comes because - contrary to what he pretends to Fritz - he does have an agenda and he does flatter himself and his manipulative capabilities a bit too much, and therefore doesn't take everything into account. On the one hand he hypes Fritz up, but on the other he underestimates him. For a change, history works rather well in the storytelling department when the cooling of their relationship is partly caused and exemplified by the "here am I, Manteuffel, the Crown Prince's favoured correspondent and mentor" painting, which seems to have pissed off FW and Fritz both.