the Prince Royal maintaining that he would rather have a wife who made him a cuckold, than to have one who did not know how to keep the conversation going."
This is so very Fritz. And yet another example of him adhering to his belief that the woman cheating in a relationship was not the worst thing in the world. (Does anyone think there's any chance he was hoping, at this early date, she would get pregnant by someone else?)
I think Selena and Mildred mentioned most of it before, but I can reproduce it if you want
I know which one you're talking about, but I wouldn't mind a reminder if you're offering, and I'm sure cahn could use one.
that the woman cheating in a relationship was not the worst thing in the world
He is remarkably consistent on that from very early on, even though I think in this particular instance, it's almost more about the witty quip. And I don't think you needed to know much about EC to realize that she wasn't exactly the type for that in the first place. Be that as it may, I'm not so sure how he'd have felt about raising another man's kid to become his successor - he did have the "there'll always be people who want to rule, no reason for me to procreate" attitude, but a) that's different from raising a kid you aren't related to, and b) he was rather invested in the concept of family and in AW's procreation in particular.
The Manteuffel letter to Brühl:
"[...] it is good to know that most of our letters no longer revolve around poetry and other such trifles, but matters of morality, history, Christianity and other things useful to a young Prince, who has enough discernment to understand that true greatness consists rather in a solid mind and in human feelings, generous and just, than in the importance of rank or in the false brilliance of certain frivolous sciences.
I am convinced without taking pride that if I could have the honor of communicating to Your Excellency all the letters we write to each other, this Prince and I, you would be charmed by his and not disapprove of mine; all the more so as these will all indirectly inspire in him the sentiments of a good ruler, a good neighbor, and a good friend of his friends: or what amounts to the same thing, feelings of humanity, of fairness, and good faith.
I do not know if I make myself believe it too much, but I believe I perceive (and others perceive it even more than me) that my insinuations do not fall to the ground and I dare to flatter myself that if I can continue them for some time, not only the inhabitants of these countries, but all the future neighbors of my correspondent will one day (when I no longer am) have some obligation to me, for having contributed to making him espouse principles so different from those of educational prejudices and bad examples.
Your Excellency will perhaps be surprised that a Prince of his age and naturally subject to some vanity receives my insinuations so well, but it is good that you know that this mainly comes from four causes, 1) his extraordinary eagerness to learn, 2) a little good opinion he has of me, 3) that he is looking at me as a sort of independent and disinterested old man, he is persuaded that I speak or write to him rather by a movement of friendship, not by interest in agendas, and 4) that I never speak or write to him as a teacher, but as a man who only seeks to entertain him, by reporting to him what I say to have read [...]"
Be that as it may, I'm not so sure how he'd have felt about raising another man's kid to become his successor
Same, I'm not sure. And of course, the story that he told EC2 that she should discreetly get pregnant by some guy from an old Prussian noble family is apocryphal. What made me ask that question was the reminder that if she gets pregnant in the 1730s, he gets a lot more money out of FW.
Let's just be glad EC1 wasn't this type, because the last thing any kid (or at least son and heir) needed was Fritz for a father (as opposed to an uncle, which could go either way).
Verily. Here's a story from Weber's collection based on Manteuffel's reports that otoh is more evidence for Fritz, defender of sexual liberty for (noble) women, and otoh evidence for Fritz, all for physical punishment for "disloyal" servants:
"A noble lady, the widow of one of the foremost officials, had incautiously abused and dismissed a maidservant who had been entrusted with many a secret. In revenge, the dismissed maid spread the story of her former mistress having secretly given birth to a child in 1734 already and was expecting again. The King, who learned of the rumor, ordered the lady to either subject herself to a medical examination or pay a punishing fee of 13000 Taler. The lady, who was very rich, nonetheless was thought of as very miserly; she sought to drag the whole affair out and avoid it by removing herself from Berlin. Learning of this, the King ordered her arrest and ordered the fiscus to start proceedings. Thus informed, he lady then chose to pay the entire sum."
FW boasts of this in the Tobacco Parliament and says he already has put the money to good use. Fritz asks Manteuffel whether this has been a just thing to do or whether it wasn't wrong. Manteuffel, who while a PRIVATE CITIZEN still would like to live in Berlin without FW at his throat, says the entire matter is too difficult to judge for old him. Whereupon Fritz speaks thusly.
Very well, I shall be franker towards you. I think it was all dastardly done. The denouncing servant ought to have been whipped by the executioner, and it would have been enough to warn N. discreetly that she ought to be more careful. Those who want to keep their consciience clean ought to have returned the money thus gained.
Man, I keep thinking I should try to read this chapter, but then I remember--I don't have to! You and felis are reading it for me! :D I will try focusing on the things you're not reading.
This, by the way, is - drumroll - Peter's future mother-in-law, Knyphausen's widow, Charlotte Luise! While Weber doesn't give us the name, the entire conversation is also in Seckendorff's Journal (December 6th 1735), who isn't as discreet, plus Kloosterhuis mentions some of it in his Katte book, in the footnote on Peter (171). Kloosterhuis also has an alleged quote from her, where she says since she got pregnant twice (first time: 1734), she got one over on FW for only paying once.
Now, the interesting is that according the Kloosterhuis, the guy she had the affair with was our Schwerin, Generalleutnant Kurt Christopher! But while Kloosterhuis does tend to be reliable, I'm not 100% sure he's right on that one. He also has a sum of 12.000, not 13.000 Thaler, but since Weber specifies that FW kept 12.000 and gave 1000 to the state, this might be where the difference comes from.
There's also a wiki entry on the kid that allegedly came out of this affair, but that one says the father is Oberst Carl Christoph von Schwerin! So I don't know. Lots of rumors surrounding this girl, but she herself went with Charlotte Luise's maiden name, Ilgen, and it would make sense that CL went to the Knyphausen's home estate Jennelt to quietly give birth. What doesn't quite make sense is the birth date, because that should be in 1736, not 1737, given that the Manteuffel-Fritz conversation happened in December 1735.
Found it. I'm amused that this is the way he identifies Peter in the memoirs: son-in-law of the widow who had to pay for having kids. And no, Voltaire, she was not in fact ruined afterwards! No mention of the father or the maid, either.
Despite having read Voltaire’s memors and the Seckendorf diary ages ago, I did not remember this at all! Wow. Hang on, though: if this was Peter’s mother-in-law, doesn’t it put Fritz’ gift of gold to her into a new or at least additional light?
Maybe? I'd never felt I could make a connection, because they're so far apart in time (the gift was 1750). I also assumed the gift was mostly for Peter and using her as the intermediary was more of an excuse, partly because that's how Hanway presents it and partly because Peter gets another gift 3 years later, same time of year.
What's more interesting to me now that I know Fritz was sympathetic to her plight in 1736, is that Hanway says Fritz wasn't in her good graces in 1750!
Well, firstly, given FWs FW-ness in 1736, she didn't necessarily know Fritz was sympathetic in 1736! Saying something to Manteuffel is one thing, talking to her directly another. Also, if I understood this correctly she wasn't in Berlin at the time but in the countryside, and presumably remained there until the pregnancy was over, the kid was born and hopefully the scandal was less. Greeting her upon her return with: Countess, I'm behind you and sorry about the money! would have been rude rather than helpful.
And secondly, as you say, in 1750, much time has passed, and what she did witness in recent years was her son-in-law getting slighted. Still, if she did have a reputation for liking money and being thrifty, the nature of the present could be influenced by this.
Well, firstly, given FWs FW-ness in 1736, she didn't necessarily know Fritz was sympathetic in 1736!
Agreed, I just thought it was interesting that it didn't translate to anything positive after he became king. Agree that Peter was probably a significant reason, and not just the slighting but possibly the war starting. Jordan says:
La Knyphausen is very sad to see that Keith, to whom she has promised her eldest daughter, and whom she regarded as the future support of her family, is about to leave. I believe that she is seeking to retire to her lands in Ost-Frisia, and that she will ask for permission.
Also, if I understood this correctly she wasn't in Berlin at the time but in the countryside
And if she was in Jennelt, she was not just in the countryside but all the way over in East Frisia! East Frisia being where the Knyphausen family came from, and Jennelt one of their estates there, as felis and I found when we researched possible burial places for Peter. Reminder for cahn: East Frisia or East Friesland is near the Netherlands, and won't become Prussian territory until 1744, when the local ruling family dies out and Fritz inherits.
Still, if she did have a reputation for liking money and being thrifty, the nature of the present could be influenced by this.
Indeed, and when felis reminded me that Voltaire said she was ruined, I thought that maybe this rumor started because she complained so much about the fine!
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cahn
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 01:36 am (UTC)This is so very Fritz. And yet another example of him adhering to his belief that the woman cheating in a relationship was not the worst thing in the world. (Does anyone think there's any chance he was hoping, at this early date, she would get pregnant by someone else?)
I think Selena and Mildred mentioned most of it before, but I can reproduce it if you want
I know which one you're talking about, but I wouldn't mind a reminder if you're offering, and I'm sure
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 11:55 am (UTC)He is remarkably consistent on that from very early on, even though I think in this particular instance, it's almost more about the witty quip. And I don't think you needed to know much about EC to realize that she wasn't exactly the type for that in the first place. Be that as it may, I'm not so sure how he'd have felt about raising another man's kid to become his successor - he did have the "there'll always be people who want to rule, no reason for me to procreate" attitude, but a) that's different from raising a kid you aren't related to, and b) he was rather invested in the concept of family and in AW's procreation in particular.
The Manteuffel letter to Brühl:
"[...] it is good to know that most of our letters no longer revolve around poetry and other such trifles, but matters of morality, history, Christianity and other things useful to a young Prince, who has enough discernment to understand that true greatness consists rather in a solid mind and in human feelings, generous and just, than in the importance of rank or in the false brilliance of certain frivolous sciences.
I am convinced without taking pride that if I could have the honor of communicating to Your Excellency all the letters we write to each other, this Prince and I, you would be charmed by his and not disapprove of mine; all the more so as these will all indirectly inspire in him the sentiments of a good ruler, a good neighbor, and a good friend of his friends: or what amounts to the same thing, feelings of humanity, of fairness, and good faith.
I do not know if I make myself believe it too much, but I believe I perceive (and others perceive it even more than me) that my insinuations do not fall to the ground and I dare to flatter myself that if I can continue them for some time, not only the inhabitants of these countries, but all the future neighbors of my correspondent will one day (when I no longer am) have some obligation to me, for having contributed to making him espouse principles so different from those of educational prejudices and bad examples.
Your Excellency will perhaps be surprised that a Prince of his age and naturally subject to some vanity receives my insinuations so well, but it is good that you know that this mainly comes from four causes,
1) his extraordinary eagerness to learn,
2) a little good opinion he has of me,
3) that he is looking at me as a sort of independent and disinterested old man, he is persuaded that I speak or write to him rather by a movement of friendship, not by interest in agendas,
and 4) that I never speak or write to him as a teacher, but as a man who only seeks to entertain him, by reporting to him what I say to have read [...]"
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 02:44 pm (UTC)Same, I'm not sure. And of course, the story that he told EC2 that she should discreetly get pregnant by some guy from an old Prussian noble family is apocryphal. What made me ask that question was the reminder that if she gets pregnant in the 1730s, he gets a lot more money out of FW.
Let's just be glad EC1 wasn't this type, because the last thing any kid (or at least son and heir) needed was Fritz for a father (as opposed to an uncle, which could go either way).
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 03:05 pm (UTC)"A noble lady, the widow of one of the foremost officials, had incautiously abused and dismissed a maidservant who had been entrusted with many a secret. In revenge, the dismissed maid spread the story of her former mistress having secretly given birth to a child in 1734 already and was expecting again. The King, who learned of the rumor, ordered the lady to either subject herself to a medical examination or pay a punishing fee of 13000 Taler. The lady, who was very rich, nonetheless was thought of as very miserly; she sought to drag the whole affair out and avoid it by removing herself from Berlin. Learning of this, the King ordered her arrest and ordered the fiscus to start proceedings. Thus informed, he lady then chose to pay the entire sum."
FW boasts of this in the Tobacco Parliament and says he already has put the money to good use. Fritz asks Manteuffel whether this has been a just thing to do or whether it wasn't wrong. Manteuffel, who while a PRIVATE CITIZEN still would like to live in Berlin without FW at his throat, says the entire matter is too difficult to judge for old him. Whereupon Fritz speaks thusly.
Very well, I shall be franker towards you. I think it was all dastardly done. The denouncing servant ought to have been whipped by the executioner, and it would have been enough to warn N. discreetly that she ought to be more careful. Those who want to keep their consciience clean ought to have returned the money thus gained.
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 03:58 pm (UTC)Man, I keep thinking I should try to read this chapter, but then I remember--I don't have to! You and
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 05:47 pm (UTC)This, by the way, is - drumroll - Peter's future mother-in-law, Knyphausen's widow, Charlotte Luise! While Weber doesn't give us the name, the entire conversation is also in Seckendorff's Journal (December 6th 1735), who isn't as discreet, plus Kloosterhuis mentions some of it in his Katte book, in the footnote on Peter (171). Kloosterhuis also has an alleged quote from her, where she says since she got pregnant twice (first time: 1734), she got one over on FW for only paying once.
Now, the interesting is that according the Kloosterhuis, the guy she had the affair with was our Schwerin, Generalleutnant Kurt Christopher! But while Kloosterhuis does tend to be reliable, I'm not 100% sure he's right on that one. He also has a sum of 12.000, not 13.000 Thaler, but since Weber specifies that FW kept 12.000 and gave 1000 to the state, this might be where the difference comes from.
There's also a wiki entry on the kid that allegedly came out of this affair, but that one says the father is Oberst Carl Christoph von Schwerin! So I don't know. Lots of rumors surrounding this girl, but she herself went with Charlotte Luise's maiden name, Ilgen, and it would make sense that CL went to the Knyphausen's home estate Jennelt to quietly give birth. What doesn't quite make sense is the birth date, because that should be in 1736, not 1737, given that the Manteuffel-Fritz conversation happened in December 1735.
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 05:59 pm (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 06:04 pm (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-13 12:32 am (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 06:31 pm (UTC)Wait, I didn't know that! By name?
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 06:32 pm (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 06:46 pm (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-11 08:02 pm (UTC)Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-12 01:15 am (UTC)What's more interesting to me now that I know Fritz was sympathetic to her plight in 1736, is that Hanway says Fritz wasn't in her good graces in 1750!
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
Date: 2022-01-12 04:17 am (UTC)And secondly, as you say, in 1750, much time has passed, and what she did witness in recent years was her son-in-law getting slighted. Still, if she did have a reputation for liking money and being thrifty, the nature of the present could be influenced by this.
Baroness von Knyphausen
Date: 2022-01-12 03:51 pm (UTC)Agreed, I just thought it was interesting that it didn't translate to anything positive after he became king. Agree that Peter was probably a significant reason, and not just the slighting but possibly the war starting. Jordan says:
La Knyphausen is very sad to see that Keith, to whom she has promised her eldest daughter, and whom she regarded as the future support of her family, is about to leave. I believe that she is seeking to retire to her lands in Ost-Frisia, and that she will ask for permission.
Also, if I understood this correctly she wasn't in Berlin at the time but in the countryside
And if she was in Jennelt, she was not just in the countryside but all the way over in East Frisia! East Frisia being where the Knyphausen family came from, and Jennelt one of their estates there, as
Still, if she did have a reputation for liking money and being thrifty, the nature of the present could be influenced by this.
Indeed, and when