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Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-05 07:29 pm (UTC)Domineering, meddlesome, hypercritical and restrictive as his mother could be; hectoring, sarcastic, resentful and self-righteous as he often showed himself; he could not utterly reject her graciousness, charm, admiration and affection. (...) Both the angry, even hysterical exchanges between mother and son, and and the expressions of affection, have to be accepted as genuine. Despite all alarms they did contrive to work together - unlike successive princes of Wales with George I., George II and George III. Perhaps the nearest parallel is the relationship between the brothers prince Henry of Prussia and Frederick the Great, in which extreme personal bitterness proved compatible with close collaboration. But the mutual affection was decidedly stronger in the case of Joseph and Maria Theresa.
He could have added Catherine and her son Paul to the pairings who could not not work together, which brings me to the following gem quoted in this book, showing Joseph in yet another way resembling his mother's arch nemesis:
Joseph (though not to a
BritishRussian envoy): I'm so glad we're not like Catherine and Paul.Though not having read the second volume yet, I don't know whether Joseph ever got to the point before his own death where he wished to forget the years since MT's death. Anyway, Fritz and Heinrich as the closest contemporary equivalent to MT and Joseph (and vice versa): discuss!
Of course, in terms of governing, they were actually a triumvirate, with Kaunitz as the third party, and in the last five years or so of MT's life, one of them was always threatening to resign in order to make the other two give in. Joseph's last such attempt leads to a line from MT that sums the relationship up:
Joseph, having offered to resign from the co-regency: I've always been able to carry out the job of a good son without having to work at it. It comes naturally. The position of co-regent, to be tolerable, needs only to become imaginary. After welve years of study I haven't yet attained proficiency, and never shall, except by the method that I'M sure you'll permit me to adopt, and my withdrawal will be the beginning of my happiness.
MT to this: It is cruel that we should love each other and mutually torment each other without doing any good.
As an example of Beales' narrative fairness: he points out on the one hand Joseph had good reason to be upset with her when she reached out to Fritz mid War of the Bavarian Succession, bypassing him when he was not only her fellow monarch but also the commander-in-chief of the ongoing war, not to mention it made him look like a schoolboy, BUT that at the same time, MT's intervention won back some sympathy for Team Austria in the German states who had until then been all pro Fritz (because this time, Austria had done the invading and thus could be condemned as the aggressor), see also Protestant Matthias Claudius praising MT in poetry with "She made peace", and that this was one reason why Austria actually ended up with some territorial gain (the Innnviertel) in the peace treaty when military wise, they hadn't managed anything. He also says that as much as MT made Joseph work for every little reform concession he pushed through during their co-regency, those reforms actually survived him instead of having to be taken back.
Now, the "Five Princesses and Joseph II" study was written after Beales had already published, so by necessity there is less here in general than there was in that single volume about Joseph and his lady friends, but Beales does indeed point out the importance those relationships had for him first. Incidentally, he reports the Marie Christina ("Mimi") affair with Eleonore Liechtenstein's husband as a fact, not a question, so wherever Goldstone had her idea that it was an invented rumor by Eleonore to carry favor from Joseph for her husband from, it's not from this biography. On the contrary, the timing of Eleonore writing this was a thing to her sister Leopoldine makes it even less likely, because it actually happens when the circle is just starting to form, at the same time when Eleonore is still wooed by Joseph. The way Beales narrates it, the chronology is thusly:
Joseph: *crushes increasingly on Eleonore, to the point where at a ball he makes an unmistakable move*
Eleonore: *does not want to become Joseph's mistress, decides to leave Vienna and visit her husband at Pressburg (Hungary), where he's stationed*
Mimi and Albert: *are currently governors in Hungary, residing in Pressburg*
Eleonore: *finds husband in affair with Mimi*
Eleonore: *writers angry and exasparated letter to sister Leopoldine*
Joseph in Vienna: *writes to brother Leopold how totally he does not mind having been rejected as a lover, pfff, he's so over it, who cares?*
Joseph: *convinces no one*
Joseph: Dear Eleonore, please please come back to Vienna, friends only it shall be!
Eleonore: *comes back*
Circle of Five: *established*
Yes, clearly exactly the kind of situation where a woman needs to do the guy a favor by making up a story about his sister and her husband.
Something else this first volume does not have is Goldstone's claim of Mimi showing Joseph Isabella's letters to herself. She may yet do so in volume 2, but so far, Beales has reported no such thing, and by the time of MT's death, Joseph still has no clue about Isabella having loved his sister, not himself.
And here's an anecdote featuring the Prince de Ligne, he who wrote the Eugene's memoirs RPF and also gave us some great descriptions of the Joseph and Fritz summit (including an Antinous reference!). Writes Beales, in a story that also is very descriptive of 18th century monarchies, Austrian edition:
A trivial example will highlight the difference of attitude between mother and son. The Belgian prince de Ligne, serving in the Monarchy's army, recalled in his memoirs that, furious at not being at once appointed on the death of his fatherh to command the family regiment and to a Knighthood of the Golden Fleece, he had written to the appropriate official, using the phrase: "Born in a land where there are no slaves, I shall be in a position to take my small merit and fortune elsewhere." When this insubordination became known to Maria Theresa and Joseph, they called a 'council of war'. The emperor wanted to take the initiative and dismiss the prince forthwith. Another member wanted him imprisoned. But a third, marshal Lacy, made the courtier's suggestion which the empress adopted: .for three months she would refuse to speak to Ligne, or to look at him when he kissed hands. The prince claimed that on one occasion during the period of this cruel sentence, he had caught her laughing.
Beales compares Fritz and Joseph apropos the Frederician political testaments vs the memoranda Joseph wrote to his mother and Kaunitz shortly after the death of his father and his becoming Emperor, detailing how he thought the state should work:
It is not possible to treat them as they were on exactly the same footing. Frederick devotes much space to foreign policiy, Joseph none. Frederick is writing, on the strength of great experience and success, for his heir; Joseph, innocent and untried, is addressing his still dominant mother. The political testaments wholly lack the adolescent dogmatism and passion of the memorandum. But the documents are comparable in that they both contain considered statements on the role of the monarch and on domestic policy.
Here there are many points of similarity, as well as revealing differences. Frederick and Joseph are agreed in their dedication to the state. Each believes that as the sovereign he is uniquely qualified to govern it and to decide what is best for it. Both are prejudiced against committees, concerned to augment the population, anxious to improve education, ready to let justice take its course, opposed to the granating of lasvish pensions, and intrested in maintaining a large army well integrated with society. But Frederick of course is the friend of the aristocracy, and Joseph their foe. The Prussian takes a more resonable line on the prohibtion of imports. He does not make a point of receiving the petition of every subject personally. Though anti-religous, he is untroubled about the position of the churches in his domnions; indeed he acknowledges that the Lutherans are ideal subjects. Incidentally, he decribes Maria Theresa's council as the best in Europe. But the essential difference is that Frederick is describing a system with which in large measure he is now content. Joseph, by contrast, wishes to transform the Monarchy.
Beales doesn't hold back on Joseph's flaws - for example, his Fritzian treatment of his second wife - but also has praise for his ability to be there when people he loved were suffering. Reading this biography, it hit me that Joseph was present at the deaths of his father, mother, first wife and daughter. The only death which was quick of these was the one of his father. The death of his daughter is the saddest of these, (MT to Lacy, one of Joseph's two male bffs in the circle: After this cruel blow, take care of my son. Try to see him every day, even twice a day, so that he may share his grief with you whom he knows to be his friend. )
Another aspect of interest to yours truly is Joseph the patron of German theatre (and opera), which was the one area where his mother really let him do what he wanted and didn't interfere. This I had known, but I hadn't been aware that Lessing's Emilia Galotti was produced in Vienna in 1772, the year of its completion. This is pretty sensational for several reasons:
1.) Lessing = Protestant Prussian Enlightenment writer.
2.) Emilia Galotti features a decadent ancien regime prince ordering the heroine, product of the up and coming middle class and not interested in extramarital sex with the nobility, into his bed. Unlike Figaro's Wedding, this isn't a comedy. It ends bloodily. Sure, the action takes place in Italy, but the critique on the status quo of the pre revolutionary all powerful rulers and nobles is pretty unmistakable.
Joseph actually dissolved the French theatre ensembles and as I told you before renamed the Burgtheater into "Deutsches Nationaltheater", the Court guaranteed the German players' wages for a trial period of one year, and Joseph offered prizes to German playwrights and sent a talent-scout into the Empire to seek out distinguished actors.
(Otoh, Joseph's idea of founding an Academy of the Sciences died when his mother took a look at the proposal and said they'd be the laughing stock of Europe if they founded such an Academy with three ex Jesuits and a Professor of the Physics. The good scientists were all in Berlin, Paris and St. Petersburg.)
In conclusion: a good and profound book on a tricky subject.
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-05 11:42 pm (UTC)I hope to find time to reply properly this weekend, if not sooner, but in the meantime: I have read it and learned from it!
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-06 05:43 am (UTC)Yay!
...So imagine me reading this and being "ok this is great! glad selena is reading this! My boy ViennaJoe!" and then getting to this part:
Perhaps the nearest parallel is the relationship between the brothers prince Henry of Prussia and Frederick the Great, in which extreme personal bitterness proved compatible with close collaboration.
Me: WHAT
OMG
IT'S SO TRUE
LOL FOREVER
HEINRICH AND FRITZ ARE ROLLING IN THEIR GRAVES
I mean, I guess it feels a little different to me just because, well, the characters were different, even if the relationship was the same -- because of that extra affection (MT actually being Joseph's mom, not just sibling-in-parental-role -- and like it or not, there's still a gendered edge to mom rather than dad), and, er, MT seems like she was a little more self-aware in some ways? Or at least willing to admit to it? Like, would Fritz ever have written It is cruel that we should love each other and mutually torment each other without doing any good (which by the way, that's a wonderful exchange, thank you for sharing it)?? I mean, I think he would write, it is cruel that we should love each other and that Heinrich would torment ME! Because clearly he was a great brother! And also I feel like Heinrich would never have written what Joseph did and pull that kind of passive-aggressive "After twelve years of study I haven't yet attained proficiency, and never shall" (Heinrich: I am SO proficient and you know it!) (Okay, okay, he could be passive-aggressive with the best of them, but I got the impression it was more sulking, and things like not talking to Fritz while living in the same house with him, than actually writing that kind of thing. If only we had his Marwitz replies to see what those were like ;) )
(Also: Joseph (though not to a British Russian envoy): I'm so glad we're not like Catherine and Paul -- lol forever!)
Though not having read the second volume yet, I don't know whether Joseph ever got to the point before his own death where he wished to forget the years since MT's death.
Ha. I think this is unlikely, because after all he got to be emperor, and even if it all turned out poorly, at least... he got to be the one making things turning out poorly. I suspect Heinrich would not have wished to forget the years since Fritz's death if he'd been able to spend them doing something important, even if things didn't work out.
He also says that as much as MT made Joseph work for every little reform concession he pushed through during their co-regency, those reforms actually survived him instead of having to be taken back.
Oh, ha, that's a good point!
Joseph in Vienna: *writes to brother Leopold how totally he does not mind having been rejected as a lover, pfff, he's so over it, who cares?*
Joseph: *convinces no one*
Joseph: Dear Eleonore, please please come back to Vienna, friends only it shall be!
Awwwww <3 Joseph: maybe not the greatest of monarchs, but so relatable!
Something else this first volume does not have is Goldstone's claim of Mimi showing Joseph Isabella's letters to herself. She may yet do so in volume 2, but so far, Beales has reported no such thing, and by the time of MT's death, Joseph still has no clue about Isabella having loved his sister, not himself.
Yeah, I'm... thinking it's Goldstone making that up out of thin air, but I will be interested to see if it comes up in the next volume. Aw, Joseph <3 Speaking of which,
Reading this biography, it hit me that Joseph was present at the deaths of his father, mother, first wife and daughter. The only death which was quick of these was the one of his father.
:(((( And I remember you telling us that a quick death wasn't the mercy for a devout Catholic in those days that it might be for us, either, they couldn't catch a break either way :( (although I guess I don't know how devout Joseph was in relation to MT, maybe it didn't bother him as much?)
MT to Lacy, one of Joseph's two male bffs in the circle: After this cruel blow, take care of my son. Try to see him every day, even twice a day, so that he may share his grief with you whom he knows to be his friend.
:((((((((((((( I'm glad he had Lacy, and I'm glad he had his mom, even if their relationship wasn't always great <3
the critique on the status quo of the pre revolutionary all powerful rulers and nobles is pretty unmistakable.
Oh, huh! And Wikipedia tells me that this was before either Figaro, either Mozart or Beaumarchais :)
(Joseph)s reforms had unquestionably made Vienna the capital of the German stage - at a time when Frederick the Great would patronize only French players.
Oh, that's very interesting! (Also, ha!)
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-06 09:07 am (UTC)OMG
IT'S SO TRUE
LOL FOREVER
HEINRICH AND FRITZ ARE ROLLING IN THEIR GRAVES
That was my reaction as well when reading this passage. :) So I had to share!
MT actually being Joseph's mom, not just sibling-in-parental-role -- and like it or not, there's still a gendered edge to mom rather than dad
Oh absolutely. I mean, it works in several ways in this particular relationship. On the one hand, despite all those Russian female monarchs and regents, 18th century gender expectations were still thus that much as MT doing her own ruling instead of letting FS do it had been unexpected and unusual, MT not resigning once Joseph was off age and letting him rule on his lonesome was by no means the self evident and universally expected choice. (Whereas with a male ruler with an adult son, no one would have expected him to resign.) Otoh, rebelling against your mother just is different for sons from rebelling against your father, and the emotional-psychological impediments to showing anger were and are much higher. I mean, just look at the truly catastrophic relationships Fritz of Wales had to both is parents. And he was undoubtedly keenly aware that his mother disliked, then eventually hated him as much as his father did. Yet the rudest thing he did re: Caroline was not addressing her as "your majesty" or at all in a letter to both his parents. (Well, that and making his wife give birth elsewhere, but that was a gesture against both parents, again.)
Also, while Joseph vented plenty, and so did MT, in letters to other family members about just how frustrated they were with each other, and could list each other's real and imagined faults at heart, I don't think they doubted that the other loved them. Did Heinrich think Fritz loved him? Most of their lives, I guess he was convinced Fritz did not. Did Fritz think Heinrich loved him? Well, we have an early letter addressing that very subject. I think he wanted to believe all his siblings loved him, and the more time passed and the more important Heinrich became to him, he did want Heinrich to love him in particular, but he also could not stop the alter ego role play, and at least at some level must have been aware of the emotional consequence.
But: in both cases - i.e. Heinrich & Fritz, Joseph & MT - the combination of emotional storms with support where it counted in the most high pressure of situations - an absolute monarchy at stake - and the frustration of the younger party that they are convinced they could do so much more, if only the older party would let them, but never, as several of the various princes of Wales did, make that key step of actually conspiring against the ruling monarch - is definitely more alike than not. Also, despite the differences in gender and in several character traits, there were some resemblances between mother and son that they didn't share so much with the rest of the family, and I don't mean the hardcore work ethic. MT and Joseph were both emotionally wired to romantically love this one person possessively and exclusively, and never get over their death. MT was lucky in that FS loved her back in a way Isabella did not love Joseph. (Who, however, as far as I know at this point never discovered this.) And of course it's up to debate how things would have developed if Eleonore Liechtenstein would have been able to love Joseph romantically, though honestly, after reading "Five Princesses" I think it would have been a disaster, because she was thin skinned and touchy; she and Joseph had easily the most inflammable temper of the group, and as lovers would have explosively clashed and have finished their affair soon. In any event, Joseph never stopped mourning for Isabella as MT never stopped mourning for FS.
Joseph: wasn't a hardcore Catholic the way MT was, but still was no Deist the way Fritz and Voltaire were, and certainly saw himself as a Catholic to his dying day. (Despite much of the Austrian Catholic church being convinced he was the antichrist at that point.) "Reform-minded Catholic" is perhaps the best way to describe him. Re: "A good death" and the religious dimension thereof, here's Beales' description of MT's death. (Footnoted to the memoirs of several people present, such as her daughter Marianne, and Albert, Mimi's husband, as well as the letter from Joseph to Leopold later. Her last lines vary from description to description as happens - see also the exact phrasing of the Katte and Fritz exchange in different accounts - though the emotional content remains the same. What doesn't vary is the description of Joseph's behavior.
During the second half of November, Maria Theresa became seriously ill. She developed a frightful cough, she often had to gasp for breath, she felt so hot that all the windows had to be wide open, she could not bear to sleep lying down. She and her doctor were soon convinced she was dying. But Joseph at first refused to accept that they said, and delayed summoning relatives and making arrangements for the last sacraments. On the 26th, however, she insisted on receiving communion in public, Leopold was informed of her condition, and the emperor began to spend the night in the room next to hers. She continued to put her affairs in order, write letters and sign papers; but her nights were terrible, and Joseph hardly slept. In the small hours of the 28th, in the company of Joseph and Max Franz (her youngest son), Albert and Marie Christine, Marianne and Elizabeth, she received extreme unction, and after the ceremony spoke to them all for twenty minutes, thanking them for their love and commending them to God and to the emperor. When Joesph tried to respond, he was overcome by tears and could only kiss her hand. Albert said he had never seen a man so moved as the emperor was at that moment. (And Albert wasn't a fan of Joseph, and had a lot of critical things to say about him otherwise in his memoirs.) During that day she talked much to her son, who told Kaunitz that 'her courage, resignation, steadfastness and patience' were 'astonishing'. The chancellor's notorious fear of illness and death was held to justify his absenting himself on this occasion. She survived the night, urging Joseph to snatch some sleep by allowing Max Franz to watch with her instead. The next morning she called for breakfast, which she took with her children. Throughout the day she again talked to the emperor for long spells. 'No doubt she was already losing her memory, and she spoke to him, contrary to her usual practice, in French.' He 'exhorted her several times like the most zealous of priests; he carried out all temporal and spiritual duties in such a perfect manner as to be a model to all sons.' At about nine in the vening, she got up suddenly, collapsed and had to be lifted on to her chaise-longue. Joseph said to her: "Your Majesty is uncomfortable.' 'Yes', she replied, 'but in a good enough position for dying.' A few minutes later, in the presence of Joseph, Max Franz and Albert, her life came to an end.
The one detail I hadn't come across before was that she switched to talking to Joseph in French (from German, presumably) and that this was seen as a sign of her memory going, which is so very very 18th century. (MT and her children had always corresponded in French, but their every day conversations were indeed usually reported to be in German.) Also, given that one of MT's constant worries was that Joseph would carry his free thinking to a Fritzian level, i.e. abandon the faith entirely, which, remember, for a traditional Catholic like herself would mean having to fear for his soul ending up in hell, the fact that he offered her religious support on a priest-like level in addition to the emotional support of a son must have comforted her immensely not just on her own account.
Emilia Galotti: yes, it predates Beaumarchais.* Emilia Galotti was immensly meaningful for the young generation of German writers immediately following Lessing; in Goethe's Werther, Werther and Lotte discuss it a couple of times, and Werther has it opened in his room when he commits suicide. (Which is a detail Goethe took from rl Karl Wilhelm Jerusalem's suicide, the guy who other than he himself was the model for Werther.) Joseph is on record as having watched it twice. Incidentally, it premiered on the occasion of the birthday of Fritz' sister Charlotte, who was Lessing's boss and patron, after all. What she made of this particular birthday present, I have no idea, though.
*Though I doubt Beaumarchais knew it, being a French 18th century playwright. Knowing German wasn't exactly something French literati were famous for, after all. He may have heard about it, though.
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-11 05:48 am (UTC)<3
Did Heinrich think Fritz loved him? Most of their lives, I guess he was convinced Fritz did not.
...Oh, that's really sad, and I hadn't thought about it exactly that way before. :( I don't doubt at all that Heinrich loved Fritz, and Fritz loved Heinrich (for values of "love" that can get pretty dysfunctional, of course), but whether they thought the other loved them... yeah, I could see Heinrich being doubtful about that :(
But: in both cases - i.e. Heinrich & Fritz, Joseph & MT - the combination of emotional storms with support where it counted in the most high pressure of situations - an absolute monarchy at stake - and the frustration of the younger party that they are convinced they could do so much more, if only the older party would let them, but never, as several of the various princes of Wales did, make that key step of actually conspiring against the ruling monarch - is definitely more alike than not.
Oh yes! Absolutely!
Also, despite the differences in gender and in several character traits, there were some resemblances between mother and son that they didn't share so much with the rest of the family, and I don't mean the hardcore work ethic.
Oh interesting. I also got the impression they were both stubborn as anything, which is something of course that they share with Heinrich and Fritz :D (but that they shared with other people as well, of course)
Albert said he had never seen a man so moved as the emperor was at that moment. (And Albert wasn't a fan of Joseph, and had a lot of critical things to say about him otherwise in his memoirs.)
<3
the fact that he offered her religious support on a priest-like level in addition to the emotional support of a son must have comforted her immensely not just on her own account.
<3333 Oh Joseph, oh MT <3333
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-11 09:45 am (UTC)Of course he was glad to finally get all the reforms he wanted going without anyone on an equal or superior level argueing back, let alone prevent it (he was yet to discover this did not mean the reforms would actually be accepted and work), but he also wrote to Leopold: Every minute I think I ought to be sending her some packets or going to see her myself. A pleasant habit of forty years' standing, affection such as Nature, duty, inclination and admiration combined to inspire, can enither be forgotten or effaced. It is as if I am stunned.(...)
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-11 02:36 pm (UTC)Yes, I loved that description! It seems to have been quite accurate, at least based on what I've managed to glean from Beales so far.
Every minute I think I ought to be sending her some packets or going to see her myself.
:'-(
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-13 05:26 am (UTC)Oh, I really like that <3
Every minute I think I ought to be sending her some packets or going to see her myself.
<3
Yes, this seems very true to me in the way that grief works. <3 Poor Joseph, he just went through a lot, and I feel like his grief and love just shows through so plainly in his words that it becomes sort of timeless, like that heartbreaking letter you quoted about his daughter a while back <33333
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-13 12:44 pm (UTC)(To which Old Fritz would say: Same here.)
But he does come across as so very human in the way love and grief works on him, and also, in a less noble vein, in his awkwardness ("I feel like you belong to me" = only not worst pass by an 18th century monarch ever because there's always FW & Fräulein von Pannewitz) and conviction that OF COURSE, people will be happy about his reforms - they make sense, they're progress, what's not to love? And why should he bother with a PR campaign, he's an absolute monarch, Mom is dead, he doesn't need to explain himself to anyone!
(If I were an absolute monarch, and raised as one, I very much fear I'd go "my way or the highway", too. Born mediators are rarely heirs to absolute thrones.)
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
From:Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-07 12:18 am (UTC)I don't know, because Fritz is full of contradictions. He has his moments of "I console myself that I'm a much nicer person than Voltaire, even if he is the greater genius," and then he has his odd moments of self-awareness that catch you off guard. It is not out of the question that Fritz could say something like this. Although most of the time, yes, he is by definition right and the fault must be the other person's.
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-07 02:52 pm (UTC)Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-08 04:04 pm (UTC)Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-07 12:13 am (UTC)As biographies go, I find it less dense while as informative as Stollberg-Rillingers MT biography, but otoh not as fluently narrated as, say, "Der Kaiser reist incognito" or Stefan Zweig's Marie Antoinette biographie romancee.
Agree.
he's refreshingly matter of factly and unpartisan.
My couple hundred pages was enough for me to have noticed this and also found it refreshing!
But the mutual affection was decidedly stronger in the case of Joseph and Maria Theresa.
Yes. Yes it was. :P
showing Joseph in yet another way resembling his mother's arch nemesis:
Joseph (though not to a British Russian envoy): I'm so glad we're not like Catherine and Paul.
Lol! Though he had more ground to stand on here, as they *weren't* nearly as bad. Actually, from my recent Catherine reading, the author said Paul wanted something exactly like Joseph had, though I forget if that was a quote from Paul or just the author drawing a comparison.
Now, the "Five Princesses and Joseph II" study was written after Beales had already published, so by necessity there is less here in general than there was in that single volume about Joseph and his lady friends
The second volume opens with a pretty Joseph-critical take on this friendship, concluding with:
He continued to expect and receive the Dames' hospitality on evening after evening
throughout his reign, and they put up with him both for self-preservation and as a public duty, while repeatedly telling each other how terrible it was to have to live with such a man.
Though I think Beales later (near the end of the book?) says something positive to balance that out a bit. But it was not the picture I had gathered from your summary of the Five Princesses book, so it stuck in my memory.
for example, his Fritzian treatment of his second wife
I recall what he said that it wasn't great, but at least it wasn't as bad as Fritz or Henry and their treatment of their respective wives!
I also had not realizeed, or forgotten if you told us, just how forced that second marriage was. Both MT and FS pressured him into it when he was still grieving his first wife. After several vain efforts to get him to obey, FS wrote that The emperor and empress hope to persuade, but they have the power to exact obedience.
I was immediately reminded of Catherine pressuring a grieving Paul into remarrying immediately after his first wife died. In both cases, the author says or quotes someone else saying that the parents in question would have gotten better results by waiting a few days. Beales quoting
Khevenhüller, chief chamberlain (Obersthofmeister):
But matters were not handled intelligently enough and the first grief of the prince was not sufficiently respected, with the result that he gave a negative answer, which if they had been willing to wait only a couple of days (as I know on good authority) would have turned out entirely satisfactory and affirmative.
I don't know if he's right, but it couldn't have hurt.
I'm reminded, rereading this passage, that one of Joseph's arguments was that no one could guarantee that a son he had would turn out better than or as good as Leopold. Which was an interesting remark, and not one I think I've seen from a hereditary monarch before. (Fritz's was that thrones never lack for heirs, and I think that was Charles XII's too.)
The good scientists were all in Berlin, Paris and St. Petersburg.
But as Catherine proved, (some) scientists can be lured away from Berlin even to the climate of St. Petersburg with better pay and better treatment! Did they consider poaching Fritz? :P
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-07 03:27 pm (UTC)Well, since Joseph had an actual job to do, I can well believe it. (Also lots of travel opportunity. Beales points out, as indeed Joseph's contemporaries did, that no Emperor since Charles V. spent this much time on the road. No Emperor since, either, but then due to the loooong reign of Franz Joseph, there weren't that many.)
Putting up with Joseph and complaining: Since I haven't read volume 2 yet, I am speaking from guess work but it might be that Beales, who was the first to use the correspondence between Eleonore and her sister, is using this exclusively. (The Five Princesses author said it was the widest preserved corresepondence, but there were letters from and to the other ladies as well which she also quotes from.) Eleonore did complain a lot during Joseph's actual reign, but it was mostly for political reasons, not so often for social ones. All the ladies were staunch traditional Catholics and increasingly appalled with the secularization program, and with a great many of the other reforms of the later years as well, so there is a lot of criticism. Otoh, when Joseph does something kind like when one of them loses a child, he's supportive, this also gets noticed and praised. BTW, to repeat something which I said in my original write up, presumably if Joseph had just been Mrs. Habsburgs overbearing know-it-all son from the neighborhood and not the Emperor, they might have cut him off at some point, but he wasn't, and they didn't.* Otoh once a crisis was over, the book did give me the impressions that despite all the complaints, they were genuinely fond of him, and did grieve once he was dead. Since the quotes demonstrating that were from private letters to each other, not from public ceremonial declarations, so there was no etiquette to be observed or an advantage to be gained, I thought they presumably meant what they said there.
*Of course, if they were men, they could also have done what Algarotti, Darget and at some point D'Argens did when Fritz became Just Too Much for them.
Forced second marriage: absolutely, and I think the "Der Kaiser reist incognito" author mentions it, too. They really brought on the parental and monarchical pressure. Mind you, not that I think it was right or justified, but from their perspective, well, MT and FS both had really good personal cause to know how important a secured (male) line of succession is, and what political danger can follow if it's not there. (Not just due to the story of the last three Habsburg reigns. Look at how the Medici died out - Cosimo III presumably thought he was safe with two surviving sons and a younger brother, too.) But yes, some time to grieve could only have helped.
Otoh Beales wishes Isabella had survived to discreetly manipulate and manage Joseph for decades to come, since she evidently was good at it, and when I read that, I thought: leaving aside that this would have put all the emotional work in this marriage on her, what makes him think she'd have managed it beyond the few years they were married? During which she already clearly was depressed. If he's right, and Maria Christina would have withdrawn from her in any case to marry Albert, this would have made her even more depressed, and at some point, if she had survived, she wouldn't have been able to fake it anymore.
I'm reminded, rereading this passage, that one of Joseph's arguments was that no one could guarantee that a son he had would turn out better than or as good as Leopold. Which was an interesting remark, and not one I think I've seen from a hereditary monarch before.
Yes, me neither. BTW, was v. amused to read Joseph's congratulution-to-your-son letter to Leopold starting by addressing him as "oh great populator!"
Incidentally, Joseph's hardcore objections to being married are also different from Fritz and Charles XII because no one ever suspected him of being secretly or not so secretly gay, and since if Leopold is to be trusted he regularly went to prostitutes was a widower, he wasn't asexual, either. And he did have emotional needs for female company, too - again something very unlike Fritz and Charles - , hence the princesses. So it was presumably in addition to unhealed grief and "no one tells me what to do" stubbornness the correct belief marriage was not a good state for either him or a wife of his.
Did they consider poaching Fritz?
Not that Beales mentions. BTW, ever since reading Maupertuis' biography with his, err, colorful version of how Austrian captivity went for him - reminder to
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-08 05:23 pm (UTC)That does make sense. Let me know what you think when you read the passage. I still haven't read the Five Princesses book, because--tiiiiiime!
Forced second marriage: absolutely, and I think the "Der Kaiser reist incognito" author mentions it, too.
In that case, I had forgotten, probably from the cognitive load of reading it in German. I've noticed that a lot of times I understand a sentence as I parse it, but it doesn't get loaded into memory very well, as my brain is too busy trying to parse the next sentence!
well, MT and FS both had really good personal cause to know how important a secured (male) line of succession is, and what political danger can follow if it's not there
True! And Catherine the Throne-Seizer definitely wanted a grandson before she would even let the Ivan VI siblings go into house arrest in Denmark. Which is why the chronology goes like this:
1776, April: Paul's first wife dies.
1776, September: Paul remarries, under pressure.
1777: First son of Paul, future Alexander I, born.
1779: Second son of Paul born.
1780: The surviving Ivan VI siblings get to go live in Denmark (even though at this point they'd rather stay in familiar surroundings!)
what makes him think she'd have managed it beyond the few years they were married? During which she already clearly was depressed. If he's right, and Maria Christina would have withdrawn from her in any case to marry Albert, this would have made her even more depressed
Yeah, makes sense. Ugh.
I've wondered whether Maupertuis wasn't a bit miffed that they didn't try to poach him and hence had to invent some stories to make up for that.
Ha! This is now my headcanon. :D
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-11 05:53 am (UTC):( Yeah, I suppose there isn't any good way out of this.
except the AU where Voltaire saves Fritz by the power of his pen and also saves Isabella tangentially, Still WantBTW, was v. amused to read Joseph's congratulution-to-your-son letter to Leopold starting by addressing him as "oh great populator!"
:D that's awesome!
I've wondered whether Maupertuis wasn't a bit miffed that they didn't try to poach him and hence had to invent some stories to make up for that.
Like
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-09 04:07 pm (UTC)Lol! Though he had more ground to stand on here, as they *weren't* nearly as bad. Actually, from my recent Catherine reading, the author said Paul wanted something exactly like Joseph had, though I forget if that was a quote from Paul or just the author drawing a comparison.
I know next to nothing about the details of the Catherine-Paul relationship, but I recently learned that apparently, Paul had his father exhumed when Catherine died and Alexei Orlov had to carry the urn with the remains in front of Catherine's coffin during her funeral procession? Which, wow.
But also, yeah, Joseph would indeed never. (Then again, his father NOT being (P)Russian Pete, with all that entailed, might be one reason for that.)
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-09 06:21 pm (UTC)None of this would apply to Joseph and MT. Incidentally, re: ceremonies after death, it was common that there was a special memorial service at the Vatican if a Catholic monarch died, so Joseph expected that to happen after MT's death, given she had certainly been the most important Catholic monarch of her generation.
Papal Legate: Yeah, no. She was a WOMAN. Female monarchs don't count. We didn't have such a service for Mary Tudor, or Isabella the Catholic and her daughter Juana back in the day, either.
Joseph: I don't believe what I'm hearing here. My mother was the most deserving Catholic monarch ever. Fuck you. Just wait a few months when I'll be dissolving monasteries and making it law any papal annoucements have to be cleared with me first before I allow them being read out loud in my realms...
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-11 05:54 am (UTC)Joseph! I mean, I guess not very politically astute, but still feeling <3 here :)
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-09 04:27 pm (UTC)I'm amused, but don't have anything to add to what has been said already. (Do we know what Heinrich thought of Joseph by the way?)
where at a ball he makes an unmistakable move
Out of curiosity, what counts as "an unmistakable move" at the time?
After this cruel blow, take care of my son. Try to see him every day, even twice a day, so that he may share his grief with you whom he knows to be his friend.
Aw.
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-09 05:58 pm (UTC)Yesterday he said to me that he looked upon me as his wife, that he had that kind of feeling for me. 'One is not loving towards one's wife', he said, 'but I am interested in everything that concerns you. I feel confident in fact that you belong to me.'
After this direct quote, Beales continues the narration: The princess replied that she was flattered, but could not follow his 'metaphysics of emotions' and was very far of belonging to him in any sense. '
And she's off to Pressburg. Where she finds her husband romancing Joseph's sister. I'm going to venture a guess here that Eleonore wasn't so loyal a subject as not to think "Bloody Habsburgs!" at this point.
Heinrich and Joseph: I don't recall any quote in either Lehndorff's diaries* or in the letters to Fritz, but then the Fritz/Heinrich correspondence at Trier consists at 70% of letters from Fritz to Heinrich anyway. The most likely point in time where he could have offered an opinion in writing to someone was after meeting he and Joseph met taking the waters at Aachen. (This wasn't the first time Heinrich saw Joseph up close, since he was present at the legendary Neisse summit with Fritz, but it was the only meeting with Joseph where no other monarch was present. I'm not at this point yet in volume 2, but I remember Ziebura mentioned it, though if I recall correctly she quoted from a letter from Catherine to a third party (Grimml?) wanting to know whether they talked of her.
*Lehndorff himself did have opinions on Joseph, long distance wise, when he was travelling through Joseph's territories through the early 1780s. He was two thirds impressed one third apalled at all the energy and reforms and basically thinks Joseph is the kind of dynamic monarch Fritz used to be and makes Prussia look backwards now.
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-09 06:45 pm (UTC)! Very nice. Love that response to the rather presumptuous belonging line. And yeah, okay, that's as head-on as it gets.
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 1: In the Shadow of Maria Theresia 1741 - 1780
Date: 2022-01-11 05:56 am (UTC)ahahahaha even accounting for Eleonore telling the story herself, I am loving this :D Poor Eleonore!
Pressburg aka Bratislava
Date: 2022-01-09 06:18 pm (UTC)In case
To answer the t-shirt's question, Bratislava was formerly in Hungary, and is currently in Slovakia, right on the Austrian (and Hungarian) border. I was told by my tour guide that Vienna and Bratislava are the only two European capitals where, on a clear day from the top of Stephansdom or some other high vantage point, you can see from one to the other.
Re: Pressburg aka Bratislava
Date: 2022-01-09 06:25 pm (UTC)(Joseph made Buda capitol of Hungary again, which was about the only reform of his actually popular in Hungary since yes, Pressburg was really really close to Vienna.)