cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33

cahn

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

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From:

selenak

Actually, from my recent Catherine reading, the author said Paul wanted something exactly like Joseph had, though I forget if that was a quote from Paul or just the author drawing a comparison.

Well, since Joseph had an actual job to do, I can well believe it. (Also lots of travel opportunity. Beales points out, as indeed Joseph's contemporaries did, that no Emperor since Charles V. spent this much time on the road. No Emperor since, either, but then due to the loooong reign of Franz Joseph, there weren't that many.)

Putting up with Joseph and complaining: Since I haven't read volume 2 yet, I am speaking from guess work but it might be that Beales, who was the first to use the correspondence between Eleonore and her sister, is using this exclusively. (The Five Princesses author said it was the widest preserved corresepondence, but there were letters from and to the other ladies as well which she also quotes from.) Eleonore did complain a lot during Joseph's actual reign, but it was mostly for political reasons, not so often for social ones. All the ladies were staunch traditional Catholics and increasingly appalled with the secularization program, and with a great many of the other reforms of the later years as well, so there is a lot of criticism. Otoh, when Joseph does something kind like when one of them loses a child, he's supportive, this also gets noticed and praised. BTW, to repeat something which I said in my original write up, presumably if Joseph had just been Mrs. Habsburgs overbearing know-it-all son from the neighborhood and not the Emperor, they might have cut him off at some point, but he wasn't, and they didn't.* Otoh once a crisis was over, the book did give me the impressions that despite all the complaints, they were genuinely fond of him, and did grieve once he was dead. Since the quotes demonstrating that were from private letters to each other, not from public ceremonial declarations, so there was no etiquette to be observed or an advantage to be gained, I thought they presumably meant what they said there.

*Of course, if they were men, they could also have done what Algarotti, Darget and at some point D'Argens did when Fritz became Just Too Much for them.

Forced second marriage: absolutely, and I think the "Der Kaiser reist incognito" author mentions it, too. They really brought on the parental and monarchical pressure. Mind you, not that I think it was right or justified, but from their perspective, well, MT and FS both had really good personal cause to know how important a secured (male) line of succession is, and what political danger can follow if it's not there. (Not just due to the story of the last three Habsburg reigns. Look at how the Medici died out - Cosimo III presumably thought he was safe with two surviving sons and a younger brother, too.) But yes, some time to grieve could only have helped.

Otoh Beales wishes Isabella had survived to discreetly manipulate and manage Joseph for decades to come, since she evidently was good at it, and when I read that, I thought: leaving aside that this would have put all the emotional work in this marriage on her, what makes him think she'd have managed it beyond the few years they were married? During which she already clearly was depressed. If he's right, and Maria Christina would have withdrawn from her in any case to marry Albert, this would have made her even more depressed, and at some point, if she had survived, she wouldn't have been able to fake it anymore.

I'm reminded, rereading this passage, that one of Joseph's arguments was that no one could guarantee that a son he had would turn out better than or as good as Leopold. Which was an interesting remark, and not one I think I've seen from a hereditary monarch before.

Yes, me neither. BTW, was v. amused to read Joseph's congratulution-to-your-son letter to Leopold starting by addressing him as "oh great populator!"

Incidentally, Joseph's hardcore objections to being married are also different from Fritz and Charles XII because no one ever suspected him of being secretly or not so secretly gay, and since if Leopold is to be trusted he regularly went to prostitutes was a widower, he wasn't asexual, either. And he did have emotional needs for female company, too - again something very unlike Fritz and Charles - , hence the princesses. So it was presumably in addition to unhealed grief and "no one tells me what to do" stubbornness the correct belief marriage was not a good state for either him or a wife of his.

Did they consider poaching Fritz?

Not that Beales mentions. BTW, ever since reading Maupertuis' biography with his, err, colorful version of how Austrian captivity went for him - reminder to

cahn: once he is identified, FS and MT receive him and apologize for the earlier treatment, FS gives him a golden watch to make up for the one stolen from Maupertuis, and MT asks whether EC is prettier than her whereupon Maupertuis gallantly reassures her about her beauty - , I've wondered whether Maupertuis wasn't a bit miffed that they didn't try to poach him and hence had to invent some stories to make up for that.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

it might be that Beales, who was the first to use the correspondence between Eleonore and her sister, is using this exclusively

That does make sense. Let me know what you think when you read the passage. I still haven't read the Five Princesses book, because--tiiiiiime!

Forced second marriage: absolutely, and I think the "Der Kaiser reist incognito" author mentions it, too.

In that case, I had forgotten, probably from the cognitive load of reading it in German. I've noticed that a lot of times I understand a sentence as I parse it, but it doesn't get loaded into memory very well, as my brain is too busy trying to parse the next sentence!

well, MT and FS both had really good personal cause to know how important a secured (male) line of succession is, and what political danger can follow if it's not there

True! And Catherine the Throne-Seizer definitely wanted a grandson before she would even let the Ivan VI siblings go into house arrest in Denmark. Which is why the chronology goes like this:

1776, April: Paul's first wife dies.
1776, September: Paul remarries, under pressure.
1777: First son of Paul, future Alexander I, born.
1779: Second son of Paul born.
1780: The surviving Ivan VI siblings get to go live in Denmark (even though at this point they'd rather stay in familiar surroundings!)

what makes him think she'd have managed it beyond the few years they were married? During which she already clearly was depressed. If he's right, and Maria Christina would have withdrawn from her in any case to marry Albert, this would have made her even more depressed

Yeah, makes sense. Ugh.

I've wondered whether Maupertuis wasn't a bit miffed that they didn't try to poach him and hence had to invent some stories to make up for that.

Ha! This is now my headcanon. :D

From:

cahn

Otoh Beales wishes Isabella had survived to discreetly manipulate and manage Joseph for decades to come, since she evidently was good at it, and when I read that, I thought: leaving aside that this would have put all the emotional work in this marriage on her, what makes him think she'd have managed it beyond the few years they were married? During which she already clearly was depressed. If he's right, and Maria Christina would have withdrawn from her in any case to marry Albert, this would have made her even more depressed, and at some point, if she had survived, she wouldn't have been able to fake it anymore.

:( Yeah, I suppose there isn't any good way out of this. ~~except the AU where Voltaire saves Fritz by the power of his pen and also saves Isabella tangentially, Still Want~~

BTW, was v. amused to read Joseph's congratulution-to-your-son letter to Leopold starting by addressing him as "oh great populator!"

:D that's awesome!

I've wondered whether Maupertuis wasn't a bit miffed that they didn't try to poach him and hence had to invent some stories to make up for that.

Like

mildred_of_midgard, this is now my headcanon! :D