cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33

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cahn

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

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From:

felis

Joseph (though not to a British Russian envoy): I'm so glad we're not like Catherine and Paul.

Lol! Though he had more ground to stand on here, as they *weren't* nearly as bad. Actually, from my recent Catherine reading, the author said Paul wanted something exactly like Joseph had, though I forget if that was a quote from Paul or just the author drawing a comparison.

I know next to nothing about the details of the Catherine-Paul relationship, but I recently learned that apparently, Paul had his father exhumed when Catherine died and Alexei Orlov had to carry the urn with the remains in front of Catherine's coffin during her funeral procession? Which, wow.

But also, yeah, Joseph would indeed never. (Then again, his father NOT being (P)Russian Pete, with all that entailed, might be one reason for that.)

From:

selenak

In all fairness, interfering helicopter-parenting, complaining and domineering Mother and Empress that she was, MT still treated Joseph better than Catherine did Paul, and not just because he actually was given a job to do. Paul and Catherine had the problem from the outset that baby Paul was immediately taken from Catherine and raised by Elizaveta until her death, with minimum opportunities for his mother to see him. The relationship never recovered, or rather, was never established, and in a tragic but not untypical royal irony, Catherine did the very same thing decades later when Paul's son Alexander (the one Alexanderplatz is named after, who was Czar in Napoleon's time) was born - she also took him for herself and didn't let Paul and her daughter-in-law raise him. And then, Catherine was very aware that Panin wasn't the only one who not so secretly thought she shouldn't have been Empress herself, she should have been regent for Paul and stepped aside as soon as Paul was grown up. Not to mention how many coups had happened in Russia in the last century. So she made damned sure Paul had absolutely zero contact with power or anything governmental to do. On the other hand, Paul (very conscious of people thinking he was Saltykow's kid) was as much as Peter III as possible, which didn't contribute to maternal love, either, and seems to have considered it possible that his mother might just kill him just like Peter had been killed once his son existed as a successor.

None of this would apply to Joseph and MT. Incidentally, re: ceremonies after death, it was common that there was a special memorial service at the Vatican if a Catholic monarch died, so Joseph expected that to happen after MT's death, given she had certainly been the most important Catholic monarch of her generation.

Papal Legate: Yeah, no. She was a WOMAN. Female monarchs don't count. We didn't have such a service for Mary Tudor, or Isabella the Catholic and her daughter Juana back in the day, either.

Joseph: I don't believe what I'm hearing here. My mother was the most deserving Catholic monarch ever. Fuck you. Just wait a few months when I'll be dissolving monasteries and making it law any papal annoucements have to be cleared with me first before I allow them being read out loud in my realms...

From:

cahn

Joseph: I don't believe what I'm hearing here. My mother was the most deserving Catholic monarch ever. Fuck you. Just wait a few months

Joseph! I mean, I guess not very politically astute, but still feeling <3 here :)