cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33

cahn

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

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From:

selenak

Me: WHAT
OMG
IT'S SO TRUE
LOL FOREVER
HEINRICH AND FRITZ ARE ROLLING IN THEIR GRAVES

That was my reaction as well when reading this passage. :) So I had to share!

MT actually being Joseph's mom, not just sibling-in-parental-role -- and like it or not, there's still a gendered edge to mom rather than dad

Oh absolutely. I mean, it works in several ways in this particular relationship. On the one hand, despite all those Russian female monarchs and regents, 18th century gender expectations were still thus that much as MT doing her own ruling instead of letting FS do it had been unexpected and unusual, MT not resigning once Joseph was off age and letting him rule on his lonesome was by no means the self evident and universally expected choice. (Whereas with a male ruler with an adult son, no one would have expected him to resign.) Otoh, rebelling against your mother just is different for sons from rebelling against your father, and the emotional-psychological impediments to showing anger were and are much higher. I mean, just look at the truly catastrophic relationships Fritz of Wales had to both is parents. And he was undoubtedly keenly aware that his mother disliked, then eventually hated him as much as his father did. Yet the rudest thing he did re: Caroline was not addressing her as "your majesty" or at all in a letter to both his parents. (Well, that and making his wife give birth elsewhere, but that was a gesture against both parents, again.)

Also, while Joseph vented plenty, and so did MT, in letters to other family members about just how frustrated they were with each other, and could list each other's real and imagined faults at heart, I don't think they doubted that the other loved them. Did Heinrich think Fritz loved him? Most of their lives, I guess he was convinced Fritz did not. Did Fritz think Heinrich loved him? Well, we have an early letter addressing that very subject. I think he wanted to believe all his siblings loved him, and the more time passed and the more important Heinrich became to him, he did want Heinrich to love him in particular, but he also could not stop the alter ego role play, and at least at some level must have been aware of the emotional consequence.

But: in both cases - i.e. Heinrich & Fritz, Joseph & MT - the combination of emotional storms with support where it counted in the most high pressure of situations - an absolute monarchy at stake - and the frustration of the younger party that they are convinced they could do so much more, if only the older party would let them, but never, as several of the various princes of Wales did, make that key step of actually conspiring against the ruling monarch - is definitely more alike than not. Also, despite the differences in gender and in several character traits, there were some resemblances between mother and son that they didn't share so much with the rest of the family, and I don't mean the hardcore work ethic. MT and Joseph were both emotionally wired to romantically love this one person possessively and exclusively, and never get over their death. MT was lucky in that FS loved her back in a way Isabella did not love Joseph. (Who, however, as far as I know at this point never discovered this.) And of course it's up to debate how things would have developed if Eleonore Liechtenstein would have been able to love Joseph romantically, though honestly, after reading "Five Princesses" I think it would have been a disaster, because she was thin skinned and touchy; she and Joseph had easily the most inflammable temper of the group, and as lovers would have explosively clashed and have finished their affair soon. In any event, Joseph never stopped mourning for Isabella as MT never stopped mourning for FS.

Joseph: wasn't a hardcore Catholic the way MT was, but still was no Deist the way Fritz and Voltaire were, and certainly saw himself as a Catholic to his dying day. (Despite much of the Austrian Catholic church being convinced he was the antichrist at that point.) "Reform-minded Catholic" is perhaps the best way to describe him. Re: "A good death" and the religious dimension thereof, here's Beales' description of MT's death. (Footnoted to the memoirs of several people present, such as her daughter Marianne, and Albert, Mimi's husband, as well as the letter from Joseph to Leopold later. Her last lines vary from description to description as happens - see also the exact phrasing of the Katte and Fritz exchange in different accounts - though the emotional content remains the same. What doesn't vary is the description of Joseph's behavior.

During the second half of November, Maria Theresa became seriously ill. She developed a frightful cough, she often had to gasp for breath, she felt so hot that all the windows had to be wide open, she could not bear to sleep lying down. She and her doctor were soon convinced she was dying. But Joseph at first refused to accept that they said, and delayed summoning relatives and making arrangements for the last sacraments. On the 26th, however, she insisted on receiving communion in public, Leopold was informed of her condition, and the emperor began to spend the night in the room next to hers. She continued to put her affairs in order, write letters and sign papers; but her nights were terrible, and Joseph hardly slept. In the small hours of the 28th, in the company of Joseph and Max Franz (her youngest son), Albert and Marie Christine, Marianne and Elizabeth, she received extreme unction, and after the ceremony spoke to them all for twenty minutes, thanking them for their love and commending them to God and to the emperor. When Joesph tried to respond, he was overcome by tears and could only kiss her hand. Albert said he had never seen a man so moved as the emperor was at that moment. (And Albert wasn't a fan of Joseph, and had a lot of critical things to say about him otherwise in his memoirs.) During that day she talked much to her son, who told Kaunitz that 'her courage, resignation, steadfastness and patience' were 'astonishing'. The chancellor's notorious fear of illness and death was held to justify his absenting himself on this occasion. She survived the night, urging Joseph to snatch some sleep by allowing Max Franz to watch with her instead. The next morning she called for breakfast, which she took with her children. Throughout the day she again talked to the emperor for long spells. 'No doubt she was already losing her memory, and she spoke to him, contrary to her usual practice, in French.' He 'exhorted her several times like the most zealous of priests; he carried out all temporal and spiritual duties in such a perfect manner as to be a model to all sons.' At about nine in the vening, she got up suddenly, collapsed and had to be lifted on to her chaise-longue. Joseph said to her: "Your Majesty is uncomfortable.' 'Yes', she replied, 'but in a good enough position for dying.' A few minutes later, in the presence of Joseph, Max Franz and Albert, her life came to an end.

The one detail I hadn't come across before was that she switched to talking to Joseph in French (from German, presumably) and that this was seen as a sign of her memory going, which is so very very 18th century. (MT and her children had always corresponded in French, but their every day conversations were indeed usually reported to be in German.) Also, given that one of MT's constant worries was that Joseph would carry his free thinking to a Fritzian level, i.e. abandon the faith entirely, which, remember, for a traditional Catholic like herself would mean having to fear for his soul ending up in hell, the fact that he offered her religious support on a priest-like level in addition to the emotional support of a son must have comforted her immensely not just on her own account.

Emilia Galotti: yes, it predates Beaumarchais.* Emilia Galotti was immensly meaningful for the young generation of German writers immediately following Lessing; in Goethe's Werther, Werther and Lotte discuss it a couple of times, and Werther has it opened in his room when he commits suicide. (Which is a detail Goethe took from rl Karl Wilhelm Jerusalem's suicide, the guy who other than he himself was the model for Werther.) Joseph is on record as having watched it twice. Incidentally, it premiered on the occasion of the birthday of Fritz' sister Charlotte, who was Lessing's boss and patron, after all. What she made of this particular birthday present, I have no idea, though.

*Though I doubt Beaumarchais knew it, being a French 18th century playwright. Knowing German wasn't exactly something French literati were famous for, after all. He may have heard about it, though.

From:

cahn

Also, while Joseph vented plenty, and so did MT, in letters to other family members about just how frustrated they were with each other, and could list each other's real and imagined faults at heart, I don't think they doubted that the other loved them.

<3

Did Heinrich think Fritz loved him? Most of their lives, I guess he was convinced Fritz did not.

...Oh, that's really sad, and I hadn't thought about it exactly that way before. :( I don't doubt at all that Heinrich loved Fritz, and Fritz loved Heinrich (for values of "love" that can get pretty dysfunctional, of course), but whether they thought the other loved them... yeah, I could see Heinrich being doubtful about that :(

But: in both cases - i.e. Heinrich & Fritz, Joseph & MT - the combination of emotional storms with support where it counted in the most high pressure of situations - an absolute monarchy at stake - and the frustration of the younger party that they are convinced they could do so much more, if only the older party would let them, but never, as several of the various princes of Wales did, make that key step of actually conspiring against the ruling monarch - is definitely more alike than not.

Oh yes! Absolutely!

Also, despite the differences in gender and in several character traits, there were some resemblances between mother and son that they didn't share so much with the rest of the family, and I don't mean the hardcore work ethic.

Oh interesting. I also got the impression they were both stubborn as anything, which is something of course that they share with Heinrich and Fritz :D (but that they shared with other people as well, of course)

Albert said he had never seen a man so moved as the emperor was at that moment. (And Albert wasn't a fan of Joseph, and had a lot of critical things to say about him otherwise in his memoirs.)

<3

the fact that he offered her religious support on a priest-like level in addition to the emotional support of a son must have comforted her immensely not just on her own account.

<3333 Oh Joseph, oh MT <3333

From:

selenak

Volume II, which I'm currently reading has this great description of Joseph's feelings re: his mother: "(S)he had been a bulwark on which he needed to lean even while he was pummelling it with his fists."

Of course he was glad to finally get all the reforms he wanted going without anyone on an equal or superior level argueing back, let alone prevent it (he was yet to discover this did not mean the reforms would actually be accepted and work), but he also wrote to Leopold: Every minute I think I ought to be sending her some packets or going to see her myself. A pleasant habit of forty years' standing, affection such as Nature, duty, inclination and admiration combined to inspire, can enither be forgotten or effaced. It is as if I am stunned.(...)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

"(S)he had been a bulwark on which he needed to lean even while he was pummelling it with his fists."

Yes, I loved that description! It seems to have been quite accurate, at least based on what I've managed to glean from Beales so far.

Every minute I think I ought to be sending her some packets or going to see her myself.

:'-(

From:

cahn

"(S)he had been a bulwark on which he needed to lean even while he was pummelling it with his fists."

Oh, I really like that <3

Every minute I think I ought to be sending her some packets or going to see her myself.

<3
Yes, this seems very true to me in the way that grief works. <3 Poor Joseph, he just went through a lot, and I feel like his grief and love just shows through so plainly in his words that it becomes sort of timeless, like that heartbreaking letter you quoted about his daughter a while back <33333

From:

selenak

That's how I see it, too. Which is ironic given that one of the most common complaints about him from his contemporaries was that he wasn't emo enough. (But then, it was an emo century, aka the age where men couldn't just cry and hug, it was expected of them, and the 19th century definition of stiff upper lip = masculinity had not yet struck.) A wittier complaint, aiming at Joseph's tendency to piss off so many people via sarcasm, was the Viennese saying "Emperor Joseph is a philanthropist, he just can't stand people". (In Viennese dialect, it's funnier: "Der Kaiser Joseph ist ein Menschenfreund, er mog bloss dera Leut net leiden.")

(To which Old Fritz would say: Same here.)

But he does come across as so very human in the way love and grief works on him, and also, in a less noble vein, in his awkwardness ("I feel like you belong to me" = only not worst pass by an 18th century monarch ever because there's always FW & Fräulein von Pannewitz) and conviction that OF COURSE, people will be happy about his reforms - they make sense, they're progress, what's not to love? And why should he bother with a PR campaign, he's an absolute monarch, Mom is dead, he doesn't need to explain himself to anyone!

(If I were an absolute monarch, and raised as one, I very much fear I'd go "my way or the highway", too. Born mediators are rarely heirs to absolute thrones.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

"Emperor Joseph is a philanthropist, he just can't stand people".

A less concise version, applied to Rousseau, makes it into that biography of Diderot I read a while back, and it made me laugh.

Throughout his writings, Rousseau had professored a love of humanity that knew no bounds; his real problem was getting along with actual humans, with their foibles, their inconsistencies, and their self-absorption, especialy when it got in the way of his own.

If I were an absolute monarch, and raised as one, I very much fear I'd go "my way or the highway", too. Born mediators are rarely heirs to absolute thrones.

Oh, god, I don't *fear* I would, I know I would! I've already gotten feedback at work about being too rigid and abrasive. I don't understand why everyone doesn't jump for joy at my proposed reforms. :P