cahn | 18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33

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cahn

And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!

(also, waiting for Yuletide!)

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From:

cahn

Also, while Joseph vented plenty, and so did MT, in letters to other family members about just how frustrated they were with each other, and could list each other's real and imagined faults at heart, I don't think they doubted that the other loved them.

<3

Did Heinrich think Fritz loved him? Most of their lives, I guess he was convinced Fritz did not.

...Oh, that's really sad, and I hadn't thought about it exactly that way before. :( I don't doubt at all that Heinrich loved Fritz, and Fritz loved Heinrich (for values of "love" that can get pretty dysfunctional, of course), but whether they thought the other loved them... yeah, I could see Heinrich being doubtful about that :(

But: in both cases - i.e. Heinrich & Fritz, Joseph & MT - the combination of emotional storms with support where it counted in the most high pressure of situations - an absolute monarchy at stake - and the frustration of the younger party that they are convinced they could do so much more, if only the older party would let them, but never, as several of the various princes of Wales did, make that key step of actually conspiring against the ruling monarch - is definitely more alike than not.

Oh yes! Absolutely!

Also, despite the differences in gender and in several character traits, there were some resemblances between mother and son that they didn't share so much with the rest of the family, and I don't mean the hardcore work ethic.

Oh interesting. I also got the impression they were both stubborn as anything, which is something of course that they share with Heinrich and Fritz :D (but that they shared with other people as well, of course)

Albert said he had never seen a man so moved as the emperor was at that moment. (And Albert wasn't a fan of Joseph, and had a lot of critical things to say about him otherwise in his memoirs.)

<3

the fact that he offered her religious support on a priest-like level in addition to the emotional support of a son must have comforted her immensely not just on her own account.

<3333 Oh Joseph, oh MT <3333

From:

selenak

Volume II, which I'm currently reading has this great description of Joseph's feelings re: his mother: "(S)he had been a bulwark on which he needed to lean even while he was pummelling it with his fists."

Of course he was glad to finally get all the reforms he wanted going without anyone on an equal or superior level argueing back, let alone prevent it (he was yet to discover this did not mean the reforms would actually be accepted and work), but he also wrote to Leopold: Every minute I think I ought to be sending her some packets or going to see her myself. A pleasant habit of forty years' standing, affection such as Nature, duty, inclination and admiration combined to inspire, can enither be forgotten or effaced. It is as if I am stunned.(...)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

"(S)he had been a bulwark on which he needed to lean even while he was pummelling it with his fists."

Yes, I loved that description! It seems to have been quite accurate, at least based on what I've managed to glean from Beales so far.

Every minute I think I ought to be sending her some packets or going to see her myself.

:'-(

From:

cahn

"(S)he had been a bulwark on which he needed to lean even while he was pummelling it with his fists."

Oh, I really like that <3

Every minute I think I ought to be sending her some packets or going to see her myself.

<3
Yes, this seems very true to me in the way that grief works. <3 Poor Joseph, he just went through a lot, and I feel like his grief and love just shows through so plainly in his words that it becomes sort of timeless, like that heartbreaking letter you quoted about his daughter a while back <33333

From:

selenak

That's how I see it, too. Which is ironic given that one of the most common complaints about him from his contemporaries was that he wasn't emo enough. (But then, it was an emo century, aka the age where men couldn't just cry and hug, it was expected of them, and the 19th century definition of stiff upper lip = masculinity had not yet struck.) A wittier complaint, aiming at Joseph's tendency to piss off so many people via sarcasm, was the Viennese saying "Emperor Joseph is a philanthropist, he just can't stand people". (In Viennese dialect, it's funnier: "Der Kaiser Joseph ist ein Menschenfreund, er mog bloss dera Leut net leiden.")

(To which Old Fritz would say: Same here.)

But he does come across as so very human in the way love and grief works on him, and also, in a less noble vein, in his awkwardness ("I feel like you belong to me" = only not worst pass by an 18th century monarch ever because there's always FW & Fräulein von Pannewitz) and conviction that OF COURSE, people will be happy about his reforms - they make sense, they're progress, what's not to love? And why should he bother with a PR campaign, he's an absolute monarch, Mom is dead, he doesn't need to explain himself to anyone!

(If I were an absolute monarch, and raised as one, I very much fear I'd go "my way or the highway", too. Born mediators are rarely heirs to absolute thrones.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

"Emperor Joseph is a philanthropist, he just can't stand people".

A less concise version, applied to Rousseau, makes it into that biography of Diderot I read a while back, and it made me laugh.

Throughout his writings, Rousseau had professored a love of humanity that knew no bounds; his real problem was getting along with actual humans, with their foibles, their inconsistencies, and their self-absorption, especialy when it got in the way of his own.

If I were an absolute monarch, and raised as one, I very much fear I'd go "my way or the highway", too. Born mediators are rarely heirs to absolute thrones.

Oh, god, I don't *fear* I would, I know I would! I've already gotten feedback at work about being too rigid and abrasive. I don't understand why everyone doesn't jump for joy at my proposed reforms. :P