Sandman (Gaiman)
Aug. 30th, 2021 10:35 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnselenak reminded me this graphic novel series existed, and that I'd never checked them out at all even though they were Classics of the genre. (I had read Watchmen and thought it was amazing, but only because someone in grad school -- D, maybe? -- told me I had to.) Turns out the library had all but one of the ten-volume set, so I was submersed in these for a while. The first several volumes were quite slow going, partially because (as selenak had warned me) there is a lot of straight horror in those first few volumes, which is really not my favorite, and partially because A. was curious about them, meaning I had to read them mostly when he was busy with other things because I really didn't think it was suitable for him :P Then it got really compelling and I zoomed through basically the rest of it in a week, which is super fast given how long it is and the fact that I had to use time where A. wasn't around (and which I wasn't using to do other things).I still am not sure I can say "I really liked it," as I might do with some other work; I will say that I found it riveting and disquieting and very interesting. One of the things I found so interesting about it is that it took advantage of the graphic format not just with playing around with artistic styles (which it did do) but also with the trope where throwaway characters come back later in more important roles. Not, of course, that one can't do that in a non-graphic format, but there's an immediacy with the visual medium, a sort of "waaaaait I've seen that face before!" that I think doesn't really replicate exactly with text (much as I love text format :P )
And of course there was also a lot of "...hold on, THAT was whom he was referring to earlier??" which isn't necessarily a graphic-format thing, but which I love. And the thing where it's made up of a lot of stories that are self-contained, but which have an arc that connects them.
There's something very dreamlike about the whole series, the way it hints at a lot of things and spins stories about a lot of things with a kernel of truth within the larger story, that's very fitting for a series about the incarnation of Dream. It hasn't got the tight plotting-with-every-panel-being-meaningful that attracted me to Watchmen, and it is, well, Gaiman, so it's well-stocked with disturbing images, but I'm glad I read it.
-I was spoiled for the overarching plot by reading a comment Gaiman made where he apparently synopsized the series as “The Lord of Dreams learns that one must change or die, and makes his decision," and... by that time I had read far enough into the series to know what the answer to that was going to be. Unpredictable Morpheus was not :P
-I don't think I can describe the experience of reading about Prez Rickard in 2021. :P
-My very favorite mini-story was the story about Emperor Norton, whom I learned about as a child and whom I was totally delighted to see here. I also rather liked the story of the young man of the People in the same volume (Fables and Reflections).
-Also, Fiddler's Green! He was my favorite <3 To be honest I was extremely suspicious of Gilbert when we first came across him -- I was sure he would turn out to be some sort of creeper. But then he was just... Fiddler's Green, he was just a sweetie. And I did think it was fitting that he didn't come back in the end (although I don't think it's at all right the Furies killed him, that was just mean).
-Daniel Hall, I'd wondered about him every time he appeared and what sort of life he could possibly have, raised in Dream like that... though I'd been spoiled for Morpheus, I hadn't been spoiled for Daniel, and I found that very satisfying, though very tough on Lyta *sigh*
-It's interesting to me how the series would sometimes have compassion on someone and sometimes just be extremely ruthless. Morpheus himself becomes more compassionate and less ruthless as the series goes on, but then you get random bits like Loki and Puck burning Lyta's friend Carla to death because, well, she was in the way. Idk, I see why structurally but viscerally I didn't like it.
-...yes, the Hohenzollern would make good Endless :P
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Date: 2021-08-31 07:47 am (UTC)See, you were taught about Emperor Norton, I thought Gaiman had made him up for a while (I read Sandman in the 90s before being on the internet often enough to google such things). My own favourite in Fables and Reflections was Johanna Constantine, so I am absolutely thrilled the tv version will have more of her.
Fiddler's Green/Gilbert: modelled to look like (Gilbert Keith) Chesterton, in one of several Gaiman homages to this author. (I'm assuming here Crawley being a fan of Chesterton in Good Omens comes from Gaiman rather than from Prattchet for this reason.) And yes, a sweetie.
I hadn't been spoiled for Daniel Hall at all, so like you, I was wondering and yet when it happened it made everything click. Lyta haunted me, so I wrote a story about her, post series. In addition to Sandman, it draws on the one shot Mike Carey wrote about her, called The Furies, which has post The Wake Lyta - whom Cronos the Greek god tries to use - after a period of despair starting to come to terms with both what has happened to her and what she herself did. But only starting. My story is a crossover with the tv show Angel (the BTVS spin-off), so if you're not familiar with the later, it might not work for you, but just in case, here it is: Ouroboros.
Since the Sandman verse lends itself to crossovers, my other Sandman story is also one, a Babylon 5 crossover, in which my favourite Londo Mollari meets all of the Endless at various points of his life. (BTW, Babylon 5's fifth season has a Neil Gaiman written episode, Day of the Dead, which to me feels like an unofficial Sandman crossover as well.) Which brings me to:
...yes, the Hohenzollern would make good Endless
No kidding. Though I was wondering, a while ago when I first asked you and Mildred whether you were familiar with Sandman, was how Fritz would see the Endless and when in his life he'd encounter them. Despair post Katte's execution is a given, and possibly also after Kunersdorf. (As to how Despair would look like to him, I think as time went on, she'd look like poor EC. Symbolizing his submission to FW.) Desire presumably would show up Algarotti-shaped, though a case could also be made for the Dresden episode and Orzelska (canonically in male guise, and also, all the spendor at the Saxon court made young Fritz definitely want to have it all, not just the brief sexual experience; poor Saxony in the future), or in the Marwitz episode between Fritz and Heinrich. (Desire amusing themselves by placing Marwitz between the brothers would so be a Desire kind of thing to do. Also, Heinrich is a long term Desire target/favourite/plaything, between his love life and his problem of having Fritz' ruling and military abilities but not an outlet post 7 Years War.
Destruction I'm torn on: an Austrian soldier? Silesian peasant? Saxon farmer? Given Destruction's attempts at creativity despite his nature (all the painting attempts), he'd sympathize with Fritz' poetical efforts but would advise him to quit which of course Fritz would not listen to anymore than Morpheus did.
Delirium: He meets her at Philipsburg in the 1730s when making his going without sleep entirely experiment between lots and lots of coffee. This is what convinces him to end the experiment.
Dream: could be all his life, really. Younger Fritz wants an escape and is very much into Lucien's library. Older Fritz is tormented by the fact that each and every time he encounters a version of an increasing number of dead lost people in his dreams, they feel never quite right. When he finally encounters Dream himself and wants to complain about that, he's thunderstruck because at first glance, Dream suspiciously resembles Voltaire. (The thinness, and he does wear the Louis XIV style periwig and speaks exqusite French.) (Clarification: not that I think either Dream - Morpheus or Daniel - are like Voltaire in character. Just that Fritz would see Dream as Voltaire-shaped due to his imagination being largely formed by Monsieur Arouet.)
Death: Well, the obvious. He might catch a glimpse of her at various other points in his life, given that he causes her to work overtime in battle, has some of his friends like Keyserlingk dying in his arms. First time he sees her would be Katte's execution.
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Date: 2021-08-31 01:45 pm (UTC)+screams internally+
Also: Desire presumably would show up Algarotti-shaped - I adore this, and am here for all your Desire/Hohenzollern headcanons!
How did I not discover your Sandman/AtS crossover? Rectifying this stat ;) Here's mine, if you'd be up for it! A crossover with Vertigo's Hellblazer.
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Date: 2021-09-01 04:32 am (UTC)Oh ahahahaha, I was not taught about Emperor Norton in school, no, that would have been interesting! I read about him in one of those "cool facts" books my parents bought me (and which I loved). He also has a cameo in Barbara Hambly's Star Trek book Ishmael, by the way (and Spock hasn't heard of him either). And oh, yes, I also love Johanna Constantine! (Is she the ancestor of John Constantine?)
GK Chesterson! now I like him even more! :D
how Fritz would see the Endless and when in his life he'd encounter them.
! Yeeeeah, that's fascinating. And I agree with you about Despair. I wonder if Desire would start showing up Orzelska-shaped, nominally female, but shifting male/Algarotti-shaped/etc. as time goes by. (Lol, now I'm imagining Desire just... appearing as default Algarotti in that generation, to everyone :P )
Desire amusing themselves by placing Marwitz between the brothers would so be a Desire kind of thing to do.
!! For sure.
Also, Heinrich is a long term Desire target/favourite/plaything, between his love life and his problem of having Fritz' ruling and military abilities but not an outlet post 7 Years War.
Oh man. This makes me think of Mildred's slightly-darker-Heinrich and... Desire would have a field day with him.
but would advise him to quit which of course Fritz would not listen to anymore than Morpheus did.
AHAHAHA of course not, this is hilarious, as is your Delirium hypothesis, hee!
at first glance, Dream suspiciously resembles Voltaire. (The thinness, and he does wear the Louis XIV style periwig and speaks exqusite French.)
I would never have thought of this, but I really like it and it is my headcanon now.
First time he sees her would be Katte's execution.
:(
/gonna check out your fic -- I watched a few Buffy episodes back in the day, though I never did get into it enough, definitely not enough to pick up Angel, but we'll see...
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Date: 2021-09-01 06:47 am (UTC)In this case, you need some basic background on Connor, otherwise I can't imagine you'd get very far, given his two sets of memories and livetimes and the reasons for that right at the start of the story. Luckily, I wrote an entire essay on him back on the day designed to introduce the character to newbies and analyze him for AtS watchers. :) It's here.
And oh, yes, I also love Johanna Constantine! (Is she the ancestor of John Constantine?
We can't be sure whether he is her biological descendant, though obviously they belong to the same family. Also, said family every few generations tends to produce a trickster archetype referred to as "The Laughing Magician", which Johanna and John are in their respective generations.
Lol, now I'm imagining Desire just... appearing as default Algarotti in that generation, to everyone :
Lady Mary: Of course!
Lord Hervey: Naturally.
Mitchell: Indisputably.
Casanova: Ahem.
Barbarina: Not even.
MT: Who? *gazes adoringly at FS*
Poniatowski: There is but one in our century who could have that claim, and she was my destiny in addition to being my desire!
Lehndorff: You're all wrong. I always thought Algarotti was overrated. Whereas...
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Date: 2021-09-03 04:38 am (UTC)That writeup is really something -- you got me really invested in Connor and I haven't even seen a single episode of Angel :P And I hadn't had any intention of watching it, but who knows, maybe I will... and I loved all the "Second Coming" callbacks <3
Casanova: Ahem.
Barbarina: Not even.
LOL!
Poniatowski: There is but one in our century who could have that claim, and she was my destiny in addition to being my desire!
Lehndorff: You're all wrong. I always thought Algarotti was overrated. Whereas...
AHAHAHAHAHA! Oh Lehndorff, never change.
(I'm not reading the B5 crossover yet, as I still intend to watch B5 someday. Hmm... actually... E is getting old enough to watch things. Would B5 be appropriate for a very young teenager? By which I mean, would she be totally lost?)
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Date: 2021-09-03 07:45 am (UTC)If you want, with the background you now know, you can also check some shorter bits of fanfic I wrote about Connor (longer than drabbles, not often not quite story length):
Cuttings
Unforgivable
Summertime Blues
Word made Flesh
Unfortunately, the longer story featuring him I like best is also about his mother, Darla, and I suspect understanding it does depend on being familiar with her arc through the series (it's in her pov). (Short version: Darla starts out in Buffy - she's in fact the first character we ever see, in the teaser of the pilot, her backstory with Angel (that she created him) is first revealed in mid BTVS s1 where she's also dusted, but then the BTVS s2 finale brought her back in a flashback to Angel's past, which showed Julie Benz was capable of much more than the these early s1 eps had indicated. Which meant that when the spin-off series Angel happened, Darla got resurrected by the show's primary villains, the law firm Wolfram & Hart, in an attempt to get at Angel. However, they couldn't or wouldn't bring her back as a vampire, but as the human she'd been when she died and got sired as a vampire the first time around - which meant she was lethally ill again. Cue very complicated and intense scenes with Angel - who wants to be human while she wants to be a vampire again -, culminating in her accepting mortality which is of course just when Wolfram & Hart snaps their trap and bring Drusilla, the mad vampire whose existence Angel and Darla in the bad old days were both completely at fault for, who turns Darla again. There are more ups and downs (and a lot of dead lawyers) until Connor comes into existence and Darla sacrifices her (un)life for him. Since this is a suburban fantasy show featuring vampires, demons and at one point time travel, I still figured out a way for them to interact: The Haunting, Hunted Kind.
ETA: more visual illustration: Devil's Dance Floor is a Darla-Angel-Connor vid capturing their collective tale pretty well./ETA
Would B5 be appropriate for a very young teenager? By which I mean, would she be totally lost?
How young is very young - 12? 13? If so, I think she can cope. However, the first season of B5 is pretty uneven. It's by no means skippable as a season - people who advise newbies to start with s2 push one of my fannish red buttons and make me go nuclear. There is so much important character and story develpment started there. But there are episodes you can skip. If you like, I can write you a list of "must watch"/ "if you have the time"/ "skippable".
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Date: 2021-09-04 05:19 am (UTC)I will check out the Connor fic, hopefully this weekend! Heh, yeah, I thiiiiink I might need more on Darla (clearly, she needs a crossover with some other fandom I know about :P ) before I can do something all in her POV :)
E is actually 11 1/2, so... okay, not really a teenager yet. (for which I'm grateful!) Hmm! I think I've promised her she can watch the movie version of LotR first (her: So is it very different from the books? Me: Well, there was a point in Two Towers where I realized I didn't know what was going to happen next...) but... I'm liking more and more the idea of trying this next in her media education (and not coincidentally getting to watch it myself, finally); she's been asking for SF. At the rate we watch things it might take a while to get there, but yes! thank you! I will hit you up for that list when we do!
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Date: 2021-08-31 02:08 pm (UTC)Sandman is most interesting to me when it veers between compassion and ruthlessness - like the Corinthian and the cereal killers, and Thessaly, and Wanda, and really the whole Kindly Ones plotline. I loved Johanna Constantine and the French Revolution/Orpheus story, and my fave arc is the Dream/Delirium roadtrip in Brief Lives. And I loved Daniel, and agree that was a great resolution for him. I will say I loved Hob and Will Shaxbeard, though Sandman fans are divided on them (and Gaiman clearly loved them a bit too much, too).
...yes, the Hohenzollern would make good Endless
I AM TOTALLY HERE FOR THIS CROSSOVER.
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Date: 2021-08-31 05:17 pm (UTC)Well, put me in the "love" corner as well. Will is my favourite fictional Shakespeare (currently hotly followed by the in "All is True" played by Kenneth Branagh, who clearly was partly inspired by Gaiman's version), and I'm still amazed and delighted by the cheek and skill with which Neil Gaiman uses the very words from Shakespeare's Tempest which were traditionally regarded as Shakespeare's own farewell to say goodbye to the Sandman-verse himself.
Re: Hob Gadling, as a fan of the Highlander tv series, where one of my minor irritations is that most sympathetic Immortals somehow always manage to be on the "right" side of history, I very much approve of Gaiman letting Hob, who is meant to be a Everyman moving through the ages, commit a terrible wrong (not in a beserker like moment, but over years and entirely going with the spirit of the era), realise it, and having to live with it, instead of getting absolved by a dramatic rescue or death or something like that. Hob knows he can never make up for having been a slaver. It stays with him. And yet he gets on with the business of living.
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Date: 2021-09-01 04:44 am (UTC)...Have you read Fullmetal Alchemist? That was one of the things that impressed me about FMA as well (although the anime version muddies it, unfortunately).
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Date: 2021-09-01 04:39 am (UTC)Sometimes, like I said in the post, the ruthlessness got to be too much to me, but yes, sometimes the contrast was really interesting -- I also really thought Thessaly and the whole Kindly Ones plotline was so fascinating!
I love Hob too! I liked Will S., though I admit probably not as much as you and selena :)
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