Frederick the Great, discussion post 16

[cahn]

We have slowed down a lot, but are still (sporadically) going! And somehow filled up the last post while I wasn't looking!

...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D

Comments

AW readthrough

[mildred_of_midgard]

AW readthrough: I made it through the introduction and the first paragraph of the first chapter. (It's been a rough week, sleep-wise.)

The thing that jumped out at me was Ziebura saying the harsh judgment of historians on the reliability of Wilhelmine's memoirs cannot be maintained after reading the AW+Wilhelmine correspondence.

Now, I know you said that AW was her intercessor and intermediary during the fallout with Fritz, and that definitely doesn't make her relationship with Fritz look like all sunshine and roses, but her memoirs don't cover that period.

I also know you've reasoned that she was projecting her fallout with Fritz during the time of the memoir-writing back into the 1730s and early 1740s and tried telling herself she should have seen it coming, but said that the letters between her and Fritz don't bear that out. I also know she's unreliable on factual matters pertaining to events she wasn't present for, because she doesn't have access to the archives.

Personally, I've never been fully onboard with historians trying to say, "Well, FW was definitely abusive, but you have to tone down Wilhelmine's accusations." She's certainly going to skew the picture she presents (and justifiably so), but disbelieving victims because the abuse sounds too terrible to be true is not something I want to do by default.

So what aspect of the harsh judgment on reliability is Ziebura challenging here?

Re: AW readthrough

[selenak]

I took it to mean Fritz' behavior towards his siblings in general, and the critical depiction of Fritz as King (not of his decisions as monarch, of his behavior) in the memoirs. Don't forget, if you simply go by the Wilhelmine/Fritz correspondance and nothing else, then, their own big crisis aside, you've just sentences like when Wilhelmine's replies to his "let's commit suicide together" letter where in the cause of lifting his spirits she says among other things that all his family loves him and adores him, which, well, not so much. Also, after their reconciliation in the summer of 1746, Wilhelmine and Fritz go back to the old intense and affectionate tone, whereas her corresponding letters to AW show she felt scarred by the whole thing and it took her a while longer to go back to trusting Fritz completely again, which can be seen by the fact that when she finally talked about Marwitz (female) having that affair with the Margrave and basically blackmailing Wilhelmine on the terms of "if you don't make your brother give me my inheritance, I'm never leaving Bayreuth and will continue my affair with your husband", she confessed this to AW first and wanted his advice on whether or not to come clean to Fritz. (He did advise her to go ahead and tell Fritz, which turned out to be the correct thing to do.) This was after their reconciliation - in 1747 or 1748, even, I'm not sure which one - and that she asked her kid brother and was still insecure whether or not Fritz would help her or explode at her again is telling about the longer after effect.

(I think it's also telling that very late in the memoirs when she's describing the visit by Fritz & Co. en route to Straßburg, she after stating her amazement how AW has grown up etc. since last she saw him says that just so there is no confusion, from this point on "my brother" means AW, and "the King" is Fritz (who previously was "my brother" throughout). You bet that sentence was written at the height of the quarrel.)

Now, Ziebura says "modified", not "changed utterly", and by the 1750s, Wilhelmine did feel comfortable in her standing with Fritz again and during AW's last year of life was the one trying to achieve reconciliation etc., and Ziebura does point this out (also that Wilhelmine was the only sister who actually dared to plead AW's case to Fritz). But in terms of the big Firstborns crisis, the AW-Wilhelmine letters certainly do modify the picture solely gained by the Fritz-Wilhelmine ones.

Re: AW readthrough

[mildred_of_midgard]

That makes sense, thank you!

This was after their reconciliation - in 1747 or 1748, even, I'm not sure which one - and that she asked her kid brother and was still insecure whether or not Fritz would help her or explode at her again is telling about the longer after effect.

Wow, I had forgotten this. Poor Wilhelmine. Also, poor AW. (I just got to the part where SD is threatening to whip him if he doesn't intercede for the tall guy.) :/

Re: AW readthrough

[selenak]

That scene never fails to make me flinch. All the more so because the guy reporting it seems to think he's reporting an adorable domestic scene with the royal family.

Re: AW readthrough

[mildred_of_midgard]

Read 15 pages on a little more sleep but a raging headache. :/ They're celebrating Fritz and EC's wedding.

I'm now rethinking my speculations on FW and masturbation. Because the 1727 instructions to five-year-old AW's governor say the governors have to sleep next to him in case he needs anything, and in the very next paragraph, "although we don't need to worry about 'silent sins' yet, in a few years, don't tolerate it and do everything you can to prevent it, and in the meantime, no dirty talk in his presence."

And the 1738 governor instructions for Heinrich and Ferdinand go, "Sleep next to them every night in case they need anything," and in the next paragraph, "don't tolerate any silent sins, and no dirty talk during the day."

So why is 18-yo Fritz suddenly getting "sleep next to him every night" instructions for his governors in 1730? I'm now thinking they originally had orders to do this, a few years before, and then Fritz talked them into giving him some privacy (which would explain why he liked Keyserlingk so much in years to come), and FW was merely reiterating the instructions after Fritz and Peter got caught doing whatever it was they were doing.

Because the 1727 AW instructions and the 1738 Heinrich and Ferdinand instructions are almost verbatim the same, but Fritz's are rather different, and they emphasize "whether you're here [i.e. Potsdam], in Berlin, or on trips, sleep next to him every single night, and be responsible for his person." Which could read as, "And when I said every night when you were hired, I meant every. Single. Night. Not just the ones where his boyfriend isn't coming over."

Now, it could be that in 1727 FW thought that if you taught your son not to commit silent sins and set a good example with no dirty talk, that was sufficient, and then in 1730, finding out otherwise was another brick in the foundation of "wretched son is false to the core," or it could be that he intended Fritz supervised every night for no masturbating or midnight reading or anything, and Fritz talked his governors into giving him some space, until FW caught on.

I mean, for all we know, Fritz and Peter got caught reading French literature late at night. :P Judging by that Catt anecdote, which I don't remember if it's in the diary, Fritz was also having to sneak out of his room to read at night, until he almost got caught and had to stop. And we know Peter was a big reader.

My headcanon has always been that Fritz shared books if he could with Peter, and if not, told him what he was reading in that giant secret library of his that he'd gotten into debt for. Heck, I put that in "Lover": I missed late nights talking about literature with you, even whispering because your father would beat us if he found out, and He and royal page Keith had bonded over smuggled books, feeding their starved minds as best they could together.

So, who knows.

(I still think they got caught fooling around, though. :P Would love to have the complete text of that order from the archives.)

Re: AW readthrough

[cahn]

OK, I didn't get that far but I think I'm close.

"if he cannot get along with my son in kindness, then I will probably find means to make Wilhelm obey"? He "wanted the child's own will to be broken from the start"? UGH. (I know, you're like "yeah, it's just FW." I keep forgetting that FW is... FW.)

Also, do you know what uses syntax and vocabulary simple enough for me to read? Wilhelm's letters! Woohoo, I can read at a 6-year-old level :D (I'm not sure most of the 6-year-olds I know would be able to write a letter that well, actually.)

Re: AW readthrough

[selenak]

:) Given Voltaire's crack in the anonymous pamphlet about Wilhelm only learning how to read and write when Fritz became King, he'd be glad to hear it!

More seriously, it has to be said that the "children need to learn to obey unquestioningly" part wasn't just FW, that was the general conviction of the era until Rousseau. Which is why the Mozart family biographer has a point when he says that Leopold Mozart might come across as the ultimate overbearing, micomanaging Dad to us, but in terms of his contemporaries, he was downright revolutionary as long as his children were still children. Also if you compare him with the teachers of other musical prodigies. (Looking at you, Herr Schmeling.) Hitting/spanking children was normal; Leopold never did, and in his "Versuch einer gründlichen Violinschule" had firm opinions on how musical instruments should be taught, with the pupil understanding, not blindly obeying, being key. Also with all the travelling and teaching them he spent much more time with Wolfgang and Nannerl (until puberty struck, poor girl) than fathers were used to do at the era.

(Leopold as a parent to adult children is another matter, but there his favourite tactic was emotional blackmail of the "I remember when you kissed me on the nose as a little boy and promised you'd always take care of me in my old age, and now you'r hanging out with the Webers and giving them money which we gave you for your journey instead of moving on to Paris to conquer the musical scene there? SERIOUSLY? I am heartbroken!" type rather than FW style "you wretch, kiss my feet if you want to live!")

Re: AW readthrough

[selenak]

When reading the Sophie Charlotte biography and coming to the part where young FW hates his Latin lessons and flute lessons (yes, he had them), not to mention his dance lessons, I sighed, because you can see the "MY CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO DO THIS" forming in his head, followed by "why is my ungrateful oldest son not full of affection and gratitude to me that I'm sparing him this but wants to do all I hated? He must hate me!". So yes, for all we know, Peter and Fritz were just caught book sharing. (Which would explain why Peter just gets transferred and not punished or threatened with hellfire.)

Here's a thought: what if Sophie Charlotte had lived a few decades longer instead of dying young and in her 30s? It would have caught FW in a bind, because he was so much into respecting your parents, and he couldn't have objected if his mother at her court would have (openly, not in secret) provided Fritz with cultural opportunities.

Re: AW readthrough

[mildred_of_midgard]

6 pages. Fritz is writing a very long poem to AW.

I tried to do more than 6. I stared very hard at the screen and went, "Work, brain! Work!" But my brain was too tired to work. :(

On the plus side, all week long, I kept to my goal of waking up ~8 am instead of ~noon, as I was doing until this week. On the minus side, I've done maybe 25 pages of German and 12 hours of work all week. #sleepdeprivation

Notes on the reading:

* Google dropped the first three quarters of a sentence, when AW is asking FW for permission to paint:

After all, painting was also his hobby and the only relaxation that he allowed himself other than hunting.

Rendered by Google as "the hunt indulged."

* Which leads me to: already in 1729 when this letter was written? I'd thought it was a late-in-life discovery, but admittedly I have never read a dedicated bio of FW. :P

* 15-yo Fritz has to cut the meat and serve it to his family: is this normal for a crown prince? cahn can tell you what you already gleaned from the servants write-up: when doing historical beta for her fic, I had very little idea what normal etiquette was like at FW's court, because you can't just go applying Versailles etiquette, Fritz like his father invented his own etiquette and discarded what he didn't like, and I have no idea who's cutting and serving at FW's table. So I made some best guesses for "How I Survived", tried to be conservative, and hoped it would pass muster.

* I want to say "lol" at AW having the emotional intelligence to answer a question with a question, but it very much shows that he was afraid to give the wrong answer, and ugh.

* Also. AW turning pale at the finger-chopping joke before going, "You would never do that!" This is not a child who grew up in a stress-free environment!

Also, I can imagine Fritz silently thinking, To you, maybe.

THOSE KIDS.

* Ziebura citing the Voltaire to Madame Denis letter about the orange peel to support the claim that Fritz used people: oops! *checks publication date* 2006. I guess she just missed the scholarship on that one.

Whether or not she's right that Fritz might have been latching onto AW emotionally in Wilhelmine's absence, I'm also much more willing to excuse 1730s Fritz cold-bloodedly trying to survive an abusive situation than I am 1740s and beyond Fritz roleplaying the abuser.

* Speaking of using AW to survive abusive situations: why does SD care more about a random soldier than her own kid? Does she hate FW's favorite kid because marital warfare? Why is she so invested in a Potsdam Giant? Is it related to the English marriage somehow?

Re: AW readthrough

[selenak]

Meat-cutting: sorry, the only thing that immediately popped into my mind was that knights were supposed to do this for their ladies in the 1200s, which isn't useful in this context at all. However, if Frau von Kameke specifically says to the preacher that Fritz "had to" do this these last two days ("mußte"), and since he's entirely silent throughout, I bet it was meant as a punishment, or at least as an exercise in humility.

Incidentally, cahn, a reminder: Frau von Kameke was much loved by Fritz who called her "Mama" (and made a point of greeting her thusly in the big post 7 Years War reception); it's also worth pointing out AW asks her, not SD, what "hanging" means, whether it hurts and whether you die of it. Oh, and she's depicted along with Wilhelmine and Amalie in Menzel's painting "Flute Concert at Sanssouci".

(ETA: no, got it wrong, looked it up again. Much loved "Mama" who is depicted at the flute concert and was hugged post 7 Years War was the Countess Camas. Sorry for the confusion./ ETA)

When exactly FW takes up painting: search me. The painting exhibited at Wusterhausen is from the 1730s, but that doesn't mean he didn't do it before. Certainly his health started its decline in the later 1720s, with the wheelchair getting its first use then, and this was something he could do while sitting or lying, even.

why does SD care more about a random soldier than her own kid? Does she hate FW's favorite kid because marital warfare? Why is she so invested in a Potsdam Giant? Is it related to the English marriage somehow?

I did wonder, too - why this soldier? And my current theory is this: if this happens when AW is a toddler, then Fritz, ca. 15, has just started to enter the phase where FW begins to openly admit he hates his kid. Also when the marital battle intensifies around anything connected to the English marriage project. Now here's this kid who it just turns out does have FW's approval and whom FW behaves downright indulgently towards. Maybe SD just wanted to test how far this indulgence goes. So the point wasn't this particular soldier, it was saving a soldier from hanging, since she knew how serious FW took his military punishments. If little AW could achieve this, then maybe he could achieve more in the future. After all, her children were her weapons in the marital battle.

Next question: why are Grumbkow & Seckendorff also having a go at little AW to plead for this guy? What's the angle for our enterprising duo? I mean, it doesn't serve the Imperial cause whether or not FW executes one of his Potsdam Giants. And it doesn't serve the cause of G & S's advancement, either. Maybe they, too, were curious and wanted to test what you could do via this kid?

Re: AW readthrough

[cahn]

lololol I noticed the orange peel thing too! I was quite proud that I could be all "well actually..." about it :D (Though of course credit should go to gambitten, thank you!!)

My German is on a 6-year-old level for sure; in the next set of AW letters which is described as being a 12-year-old writing on an 8-year-old level in vocab and syntax, I could mostly make out the syntax but not the vocab :P

Re: AW readthrough

[cahn]

Progress: didn't get very far today, only up to a bit past I.; not nearly caught up to mildred, but should be able to do more tomorrow.

-Thought it was interesting that AW wasn't religious because Fritz had so much of an influence on him, but he did do all the religious things because he felt like he had to be a good example.

-I am sure mildred told me that FW abdicated when he was still alive, but I had forgotten. That... is one of the more endearing things I know about him, which is not saying a lot at ALL, but there it is.

Hopefully he looked forward to his future at the side of his big brother, who had so often assured him of his appreciation and love.

WHY ARE YOU TWISTING MY HEART LIKE THIS, ZIEBURA

Re: AW readthrough

[selenak]

Abdication: Mildred and I mentioned it, because she wanted to know when exactly in the AU where Katte gets a prison sentence Fritz could pardon him. Without looking it up again, it as on a Tuesday at 5 in the morning, I think; we do know the exact time because Fritz describes FW's last few days, including the abdication, to Voltaire in detail in a letter.

Re: AW readthrough

[mildred_of_midgard]

About 33 pages yesterday. SD is visiting Oranienburg.

Not much to comment on, except that that quote about AW and sex was not one you'd shared with us, Selena!

Im Gegensatz zu ihren Gatten fehlte es ihr offenbar an Humor

Google wants that to be that Louise lacked a sense of humor. Does it mean that, or does it mean that the gesture (the straw wreath symbolizing her virginity) was lacking in humor in her opinion? Because given the context and what Ziebura later says about being able to see why she didn't find it funny, the latter makes more sense to me. The former seems a bit harsh.

Given the letter AW writes about cunts, *I* can see why she didn't find it funny!

Re: AW readthrough

[selenak]

Google is right in that instance, but the implication by the larger text is "lacking in humor about this particular gesture", not lacking in humor in general.

And yes, the fratboy letter: welcome to 18th century misogyny, straight variation. I would not have wanted to be married to any of these brothers. (Sorry, Ferdinand, I know you were supposedly a good husband, but I'm not into uncle/niece incest.)

Mind you, I hope he was at least polite to Louise (and there's no report to the contrary), and clearly when later falling in love he did clue into the fact that there was more to both sex and women than that, but that letter certainly is something!

It's perhaps unfair to compare young AW with mature Franz Stephan, but just think of FS' advice to about to get married son Leopold for how to behave towards your wife for comparison. (A quick reminder: with gentilesse et courtoisie, humor and also the ability to look at things from her pov as well.) MT really got the best of them, his occasional affairs not withstanding.

Re: AW readthrough

[mildred_of_midgard]

I've only done 13 pages, so somebody yell at me if I don't do another 7 before bed. :P I have no medical excuse, just got distracted doing other things.

* I had forgotten that Pöllnitz got F1's nightclothes, but now that I'm reminded, I am charmed.

* AW and Sophie: the longer she resisted, the more his passion grew. Yeah, I feel like this is a common dynamic.

* Okay, so Ziebura says FW-puncher and heroine of our fandom was the aunt of Sophie. ?? I thought it was Sophie's mom, Johanna? Is she confusing Sophie the aunt of FW2 flame Julie? Or are we missing something? Wilhelmine says the woman in question was a lady in waiting of SD, and Sophie's memoirs (at least as quoted by unreliable editor) say Sophie's mom was a close friend of SD who spent almost the whole day at court, which I could easily see Wilhelmine remembering or simplifying as "lady-in-waiting." But I guess Johanna could have had a sister?

The thing that makes me think Ziebura could be wrong is that she calls Peter III the son of Elizaveta instead of the nephew. The thing that makes me think she could be right is that we had to apologize to her about Marwitz. :P

The other thing that nagged me when I first ran into the "Sophie as FW-puncher" claim of unreliable editor was that Wilhelmine refers to the lady in question as "fille" and "demoiselle." Johanna was, if Wikipedia can be trusted, 31 at Fritz's wedding, married, with at least one kid. Now, "fille" and "demoiselle" can/could in French be used of a lady-in-waiting as a job title, regardless of marital status. But as much as I trust FW not to go for a 3-year-old sexually (or even an 11-year old), I was actually surprised when I first looked her up and realized she was in her 30s. That's not young for a woman by the standards of the 18th century.

So maybe Wikipedia is wrong! Or Johanna looked especially attractive for her age (by the standards of a very ageist and misogynist society! where men can be attractive at 70 but women start going downhill after 25). Or FW, no spring chicken himself (44), was drawn to her anyway. I guess I just feel like if you're normally rigidly faithful to your wife and are breaking down because you haven't had any in 3 years and don't believe in masturbation¹, you're going to go after the hottest young thing in the place. But maybe that's stereotyping both middle-aged men and 30-yo women. Idk.

¹: Remember our crackfic where Heinrich and FS debate whether Fritz might chill the fuck out if he were getting laid more regularly? This might be even more true of FW, who didn't believe in masturbation. I feel reasonably sure if that if Fritz felt like masturbating, he did, no second thoughts. Even if he was traumatized into having difficulties taking that last step with people, which I still think is unlikely but not impossible.

FW, on the other hand...think of all those trips he made without SD! And also, did he believe in non-reproductive sex with pregnant women? Because she was pregnant quite a lot! (Although apparently didn't always realize it.)

* I love (sarcasm alert) Fritz writing a letter where it sounds like he's trying to talk AW into learning more about Prussia (remember, it has to be *his* idea!), then taking him on a trip and not letting him learn anything. *headdesk*

That one really feels like trauma to me. Because Fritz's willingness to share information seems to have done a 180 after late 1730.

And btw, remember when he told Grumbkow he "could complain on several grounds" about Katte? I'd put money on that including 1) Katte was supposed to get permission to go on a recruiting trip out west so he could run away with Fritz, and he not only failed to convince his commander, he didn't keep trying once he got a no, 2) Katte had the opportunity to escape Berlin in time (according to Fritz), and for whatever reason (a girl? Wilhelmine?), didn't. I think it has to be much easier to live with Katte's death and Fritz's role in it if he can pin some of the blame on Katte. Survivor's guilt is never rational.

But what I'm thinking his takeaway from 1730 was is that if you tell people what you're planning, they may betray you (not!Robert Keith), or they may loyally but incompetently die for you (Katte), but either way it's not going to end well. Better to keep things to yourself.

Which is why I think Fredersdorf met him at just the right time, just enough to get a foot in that door before it closed. (And being a commoner helped.) Sorry, AW.

* Fritz gets sick in 1747 (this is the year of "Pulvis et Umbra", cahn), starts talking about bringing AW into the loop, recovers, no more talk about that. Where have I read almost that exact sentence before? In Ziebura, the Heinrich bio, mid 1770s, when Fritz had one foot in the grave for a while but pulled it out again. "Heinrich, *cough cough gasp*, I'm dying here, and you're going to be the power behind the throne when I'm gone, so I should tell you some stuff before I go, because Oldest Nephew sucks big time. Oh, no, wait, false alarm, I'm feeling better. You've got 10 more years of me not telling anyone anything to look forward to! You'll miss me when I'm gone. :P"

* AW writes up some "absolute power is bad" notes to self, Ziebura concludes, "From this we can conclude that AW, as the heir, would not have followed the absolute ruling style of his brother in everything."

In everything, no, but I can't help remarking...

I hear Fritz wrote down some opinions about ruling styles before he became king too. :D

More seriously, what I think this shows is that AW would not have followed the *micromanaging* style of his father and brother. Most absolute monarchs, enlightened or not, don't have the energy, paranoia, masochism for that, and that's a major reason Fritz got called der einzige. He wasn't the most absolute monarch of his age so much as the most meddling. MT may have been a demanding workaholic, but I think she was less of a paranoid micromanager? Maybe? I haven't read a bio of her in 20 years.

Google fail:

Fritz makes fun of AW when he goes to communion, not supper. Evening meal = Last Supper = reenacting the Last Supper = communion.

You probably got the real meaning from common sense, never mind looking at the German, but I thought Google's take was funny and worth sharing:

The prince saw the task of the church in preaching hope of eternal bliss to the poor and the unfortunate, and virtue, benevolence and moderation to the soldiers, and bravery to the rich and careless.

Soldiers, be more benevolent and moderate! Rich people, be more brave! The true purpose of religion.

:P

Re: AW readthrough

[cahn]

It should be noted that Wilhelm, in spite of his intense passion for Sophie, did not neglect his marital duties.

Heh, yeah, I bet.

(Ziebura knew what she was about, putting that fratboy letter fairly close to the beginning... it definitely has affected my outlook on him.
Though I would also like to say here: I am even more convinced I made a good choice asking for AW first and wives second!)

in February 1747 he suffered a stroke during a flute concert in Potsdam

Wow, he really recovered very quickly from -- *goes back and checks the notes to Pulvis et Umbra, because I know mildred would have said something about -- ah, "might actually have been an acute neuritis episode." :)

Re: AW readthrough

[selenak]

But I guess Johanna could have had a sister?

A sister wouldn't have been Fräulein von Pannewitz, though, but Fräulein von Jasmund (Johanna's maiden name). Checking Ziebura again, I find the footnote says it was Anna Helene von Pannwitz, i.e. the sister of Johanna's husband, Katte's commander, who was SD's lady-in-waiting until 1736 and then married Rittmeister Christoph von Schöning. Googling that name, I found wiki only has Christoph von Schöning fils, son of Christoph von Schöning pére without an wiki entry of his own, and born in 1737, which would fit, except the mother of 1737!Christoph is named as Marie Eleonore von Bergen, not Anna Helene von Pannwitz. Googling Anna Helen von Pann(e)witz directly brought me nothing, though you may have more luck. Anyway, I must have overlooked that footnote the first time around.

On a tangent:
That's not young for a woman by the standards of the 18th century.

True, though it should be noted that when Madame de Pompadour dies in her early 40s, the Duc de Croy, making an entrance about this in his diary, refers to her as "young", and so does Voltaire in a letter about the same death. Of course, both of them are decades older than Reinette at that point and are writing from this pov.


But what I'm thinking his takeaway from 1730 was is that if you tell people what you're planning, they may betray you (not!Robert Keith), or they may loyally but incompetently die for you (Katte), but either way it's not going to end well. Better to keep things to yourself.

Agreed, though I would add the older he got, the more the need to control people also factored in. I mean, it's one thing to keep AW in the dark despite AW being his designated successor, because Fritz himself isn't yet that old during AW's life time. But it absolutely would have made sense to introduce future FW2 to government work, not just the military stuff. Or, if he absolutely did not want to give future FW2 any real responsibilities beyond regiment exercises, to go through with his "building up Heinrich as the power behind the throne" idea. As it was, FW2 had no job training, Heinrich had no established power base, and presto, FW2 having anti-Heinrich ministers who get the job because they show him affection and flattery and Prussian politics going haywire.


I hear Fritz wrote down some opinions about ruling styles before he became king too. :D

I'm also reminded of AW himself telling Lehndorff in January 1758 that he can't guarantee anything if he ever becomes King "because then the devil gets into one".


More seriously, what I think this shows is that AW would not have followed the *micromanaging* style of his father and brother.

Agreed. He was no slob by any means and willing to work hard, but FW and Fritz style of monarching meant an absolutely insane workload. Not to mention that Heinrich, as the envoys at the time guessed, would probably have become unofficial PM, and because unlike Fredersdorf, he was a member of the royal family, I'm not sure why it shouldn't have been official (i.e. "First Minister" - I mean, the title was there since Richelieu). And we do know Heinrich knew how to delegate.

MT may have been a demanding workaholic, but I think she was less of a paranoid micromanager?

Not when FS was still alive, but don't forget her frequent clashes with Joseph. Mind you, these were inevitable since Joseph, unlike FS, really wanted to co-govern, and they had some differences of opinion on several key issues. So I would say this was less paranoid micomanaging but the inevitable result of an absolute monarch used to rule on her lonesome suddenly having to share, with the added emotional baggage of a mother/son relationship and the confusing and paroxical demands that on the one hand, Joseph as the male ruler should have had precedence, but on the other, MT as the parent should have had precedence. (De facto, many courtiers if in doubt listened to MT, but Kaunitz, with an eye to the future and the invitability of Joseph outliving MT, changed sides.) Absolute monarchy, even the enlightened variation, just wasn't made for a co-governing model.

Re: AW readthrough

[mildred_of_midgard]

Being yelled at is so great for my motivation. :D 7 more pages achieved. Fritz has just sent his top secret "my thoughts on making war" write-up to AW.

I didn't know AW and Maupertuis had that exchange of letters! It was actually really interesting to read. And I liked how they related their opinions on the role of passion to their opinions of theater censorship.

Fritz saying the stupidest lady should go first: MacDonogh has a fuller version of that quote (which I've found in Trier):

We don’t have any differences of rank here and we don’t recognise any either. I don’t intend to introduce any. You wear my Order [the Black Eagle] therefore you have the same position as my ministers and the others who have received it.

When Charles V was in Milan a storm blew up between two of the first ladies of the court as to which of the two walked before and which behind the other. The quarrel reached his ears and he decided that the stupidest came first. That decision removed all distinction and the women came in in whatever order they chose. I don’t want to know about any ceremonial either, when you get to the door first, you enter first; when another reaches it before you, he precedes you.

ETA: Oh, I was incorporating some material from the AW book into our chronology, and I notice Fritz is visiting the spa at Bad Pyrmont (which is closer to Wesel than Berlin, so not a trivial trip) in May 1746. Suggesting that bad health might have been contributing to his bad mood in April 1746, the month of Marwitz (and also continuing to lose it at Wilhelmine).

None of this excuses his behavior, but in much the same way that I agree with numerous historians that FW's wretched health contributed to his perennial bad mood, you can probably pick out some statistically significant correlation in Fritz's life as well.

stop inbreeding, people

Re: AW readthrough

[cahn]

But I wouldn't turn down pieces that stimulate lust. Lust and enjoyment are the true happiness in life.

Uh-huh.

The pleasure one feels when listening to beautiful music, reading or having interesting conversations is less strong than the pleasure one feels in the arms of a loved one

EXCUSE YOU oh wait, this was before Verdi, okay fine NO WAIT this was after J.S. Bach, I still call foul
(okay, it's different, sure, Bach isn't exactly a sensual pleasure, but...)
And that's even without tackling the reading or interesting conversations bit :P

He believed that all people should follow their passions whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Yeah, I'm not sure what I think about this. No, I am actually sure what I think about this :P

Re: AW readthrough

[selenak]

I didn't know AW and Maupertuis had that exchange of letters! It was actually really interesting to read. And I liked how they related their opinions on the role of passion to their opinions of theater censorship.

There's a vid on YouTube where people have staged a discussion between Maupertuis, Émilie and La Mettrie based on their respective writing. (I.e. with actors playing the roles but speaking solely in quotes by the real deals.) I haven't had the time to wach more than the start yet, but the Maupertuis bits sound as if they could have come from this exchange, though of course I bet he was repeating himself in his correspondances.

"The stupidest lady should go first" is one of my AP's favourite Fritz stories. He will be crushed to learn Fritz borrowed the quip from Charles V. Whom is the letter addressed to?

Suggesting that bad health might have been contributing to his bad mood in April 1746, the month of Marwitz (and also continuing to lose it at Wilhelmine).

None of this excuses his behavior, but in much the same way that I agree with numerous historians that FW's wretched health contributed to his perennial bad mood, you can probably pick out some statistically significant correlation in Fritz's life as well.

Oh, absolutely. And unfortunately, if you're on top of the hacking order, you have ways to share and vent your misery a normal patient does not.

re: Inbreeding - worth pointing out that for all the Habsburg related jokes there, another reason why MT was an aberration from the norm and lucked out with FS was that she - who must have had an iron constitution, as we've repeatedly said - was the product of a Habsburg marrying a Protestant (and of course converting) Braunschweig princess he wasn't related to instead of doing the usual cousin marrying, and to find shared ancestors between MT and FS, you have to go back enough generations to make it irrelevant. Presto, relatively healthy children and not one mad one among them (looking at you, Spanish Habsburgs).

Re: AW readthrough

[mildred_of_midgard]

I did my 21 pages, but I don't have time to talk about them before bed. Fritz and Wilhelmine have started their falling out, and Ulrike's getting married.

Re: AW readthrough

[cahn]

Oh good, because I have to actually do RL stuff tonight :P I know I'm getting further and further behind on comments, maybe I can catch up later in the week...

Re: AW readthrough

[mildred_of_midgard]

cahn, we need a new post!

Read 20 pages, through the end of chapter 4. AW is a fratboy but loyal (if somewhat naive) brother. I guess when everyone likes you, you give people the benefit of the doubt until they repeatedly and publicly do their level best to crush you.

* Fritz is beginning the military humiliation of AW already, AW actually submits this time and Fritz acts all benevolently forgiving but fools no one. I can see why 1) Fritz expected him to do it again a few years later, and 2) AW refused to.

* Fritz: "I don't owe anyone an accounting of my decisions."

Peter Keith, in "Lovers": "I wish he would talk to me, instead of handing down judgments on stone tablets from Mount Sinai. I know he's made a point of never explaining himself since he became king, but..."

:/

* Fritz: When my siblings marry into HRE principalities, that makes them part of Prussia and subject to me, right? That's how it works? I'm pretty sure that's how it works.

* Wilhelmine writes to Fritz that she married in order to get him out of Küstrin. Previously, the only place I'd seen this claim was in her memoirs. Now, since she married in November and he wasn't released until February, after *he'd* agreed to marry, I've always wondered what was up with that. In my Christmas '32 fic, I went with "FW lied." This seems entirely consistent with, "Fritz, have some boundaries with your sister. Wilhelmine, I have no idea why he's being so cold toward you, but if it's because he's afraid of me, I'm extremely offended. It's like he doesn't trust me or something!"

But...is there any documentary evidence that FW told her he'd let Fritz out if she married? Or that it did indeed influence his decision?

* OMG, Fritz is withholding money from Sonsine now? I like Sonsine! *frowny face*

* Aww, the most beautiful skeleton in Europe. I remember that. It's touching and sad at the same time.

* Ahh, Amalie and Ulrike would rather have been boys. I bet! Enforced gender roles suck. :/

* Spoiler request: is Ulrike going to stay happy with her marriage?

* Der Bankier habe seinem Sekretär erzählt, dass man mit der Annahme von Juwelen als Pfand sehr vorsichtig geworden sei, seitdem der Vater des russischen Thronfolges die Bank betrogen hätte, indem sich erst bei näherer Prüfung herausgestellt hatte, dass ein Teil der Steine falsch waren.

Help me out with the German here? Because once upon a time, you told us that Ulrike's jewels were found to be fake, but if I were encountering this sentence without having been told that, I would have concluded that the banker explained to the secretary that the bank had become very cautious about accepting jewelry as collateral, ever since the time the father of the Russian heir to the throne (future Prussian Pete's late father, the Duke of Holstein-Gottorp and one-time claimant to the Swedish throne) had swindled the bank, in that on closer inspection, part of his jewels turned out to be fake.

But this is saying that part of *Ulrike's* jewels are fake? I read through the rest of the chapter to see if there was a different passage that referred to her jewels being fake, but I didn't find anything. Or does this say what I think it says, but you got the part about Ulrike's jewels being fake from somewhere else?

* AW: I learned two things from my brother. One, the ruler being the first servant of the state is the way to go. Two, unrestricted power with no accountability is not.

* "my brother" means AW, and "the King" is Fritz (who previously was "my brother" throughout). You bet that sentence was written at the height of the quarrel.

Ziebura seems to think that sentence reflects Wilhelmine's feelings at the time: that like a seismograph (a Fritzmograph?), she had already picked up on the first signs of Fritz isolating himself and driving everyone else away. But the evidence Ziebura gives is largely from the memoirs, which were written during the quarrel, and also Wilhelmine's "But why don't you write me more?!" letters from before that, when she's worried about him dying during the war.

* Oh, cahn, I noticed partway through today's reading (latter part of chapter IV) that the OCR was doing a really bad job of recognizing spaces and was smushing words together. (I mean, even for German, where smushing words together is the order of the day. :P) Is this affecting the quality of your translation? If so, I can manually insert some spaces and reprocess it. But sometimes Google is surprisingly smart about mistakes.

Re: AW readthrough

[cahn]

New post: done! Sorry, I had noticed we needed a new one and then promptly totally forgot *facepalm*

I'm... possibly going to be running behind again, because I have to finish more RL stuff (kid school starting is taking more time than I expected) but I promise I will catch up at some point.

Meanwhile... I have a request for the new post; when you make a readthrough post, can you change the subject header so that it reflects something about what the reading was about? That would be helpful to me if possible :)