Frederick the Great, discussion post 16
Jul. 14th, 2020 09:12 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnWe have slowed down a lot, but are still (sporadically) going! And somehow filled up the last post while I wasn't looking!
...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D
...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D
Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-08-31 02:26 am (UTC)I didn't know AW and Maupertuis had that exchange of letters! It was actually really interesting to read. And I liked how they related their opinions on the role of passion to their opinions of theater censorship.
Fritz saying the stupidest lady should go first: MacDonogh has a fuller version of that quote (which I've found in Trier):
We don’t have any differences of rank here and we don’t recognise any either. I don’t intend to introduce any. You wear my Order [the Black Eagle] therefore you have the same position as my ministers and the others who have received it.
When Charles V was in Milan a storm blew up between two of the first ladies of the court as to which of the two walked before and which behind the other. The quarrel reached his ears and he decided that the stupidest came first. That decision removed all distinction and the women came in in whatever order they chose. I don’t want to know about any ceremonial either, when you get to the door first, you enter first; when another reaches it before you, he precedes you.
ETA: Oh, I was incorporating some material from the AW book into our chronology, and I notice Fritz is visiting the spa at Bad Pyrmont (which is closer to Wesel than Berlin, so not a trivial trip) in May 1746. Suggesting that bad health might have been contributing to his bad mood in April 1746, the month of Marwitz (and also continuing to lose it at Wilhelmine).
None of this excuses his behavior, but in much the same way that I agree with numerous historians that FW's wretched health contributed to his perennial bad mood, you can probably pick out some statistically significant correlation in Fritz's life as well.
stop inbreeding, peopleRe: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-08-31 04:31 am (UTC)But I wouldn't turn down pieces that stimulate lust. Lust and enjoyment are the true happiness in life.
Uh-huh.
The pleasure one feels when listening to beautiful music, reading or having interesting conversations is less strong than the pleasure one feels in the arms of a loved one
EXCUSE YOU oh wait, this was before Verdi, okay fine NO WAIT this was after J.S. Bach, I still call foul
(okay, it's different, sure, Bach isn't exactly a sensual pleasure, but...)
And that's even without tackling the reading or interesting conversations bit :P
He believed that all people should follow their passions whenever the opportunity presents itself.
Yeah, I'm not sure what I think about this. No, I am actually sure what I think about this :P
Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-08-31 07:26 am (UTC)AW: Heinrich, help me out here.
Heinrich: Well. What I think is... why does it have to be either/or? It's the combination which truly provides the highest pleasure, like, say, listening to a wonderful piece of music played by a superb cellist and then having sex with the cellist. Or sharing a great new book by taking turns to read it out loud to each other, followed by sex in a good friend's old and new appartment.
Fritz: This wishy washy compromise stuff is why I am King and you're not.
Heinrich: Come to think of it, reading out loud Voltaire's trashy memoirs while adding my personal comments also counts as a pleasure of the highest order. Without any sexual acts involved at all. So yes, reading wins.
Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-08-31 08:47 pm (UTC)Heinrich: Well. What I think is... why does it have to be either/or? It's the combination which truly provides the highest pleasure, like, say, listening to a wonderful piece of music played by a superb cellist and then having sex with the cellist. Or sharing a great new book by taking turns to read it out loud to each other, followed by sex in a good friend's old and new appartment.
Fritz: This wishy washy compromise stuff is why I am King and you're not.
I cannot get over this. Every time I read it I laugh *so hard*! :D
And LOL FOREVER to Heinrich's last line! You win this round by A LOT, Heinrich! :DDDDD
Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-09-01 03:15 am (UTC)She thought it was hilarious and had a great laugh.
Unfortunately, I couldn't convey the last part, which was JUST AS GREAT.
You win this round by A LOT, Heinrich! :DDDDD
Selena wins all the internets!
Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-09-01 04:28 am (UTC)Selena wins all the internets!
Yes! Yes she does!!
Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-08-31 06:53 am (UTC)I didn't know AW and Maupertuis had that exchange of letters! It was actually really interesting to read. And I liked how they related their opinions on the role of passion to their opinions of theater censorship.
There's a vid on YouTube where people have staged a discussion between Maupertuis, Émilie and La Mettrie based on their respective writing. (I.e. with actors playing the roles but speaking solely in quotes by the real deals.) I haven't had the time to wach more than the start yet, but the Maupertuis bits sound as if they could have come from this exchange, though of course I bet he was repeating himself in his correspondances.
"The stupidest lady should go first" is one of my AP's favourite Fritz stories. He will be crushed to learn Fritz borrowed the quip from Charles V. Whom is the letter addressed to?
Suggesting that bad health might have been contributing to his bad mood in April 1746, the month of Marwitz (and also continuing to lose it at Wilhelmine).
None of this excuses his behavior, but in much the same way that I agree with numerous historians that FW's wretched health contributed to his perennial bad mood, you can probably pick out some statistically significant correlation in Fritz's life as well.
Oh, absolutely. And unfortunately, if you're on top of the hacking order, you have ways to share and vent your misery a normal patient does not.
re: Inbreeding - worth pointing out that for all the Habsburg related jokes there, another reason why MT was an aberration from the norm and lucked out with FS was that she - who must have had an iron constitution, as we've repeatedly said - was the product of a Habsburg marrying a Protestant (and of course converting) Braunschweig princess he wasn't related to instead of doing the usual cousin marrying, and to find shared ancestors between MT and FS, you have to go back enough generations to make it irrelevant. Presto, relatively healthy children and not one mad one among them (looking at you, Spanish Habsburgs).
Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-09-01 02:11 am (UTC)The latest in a series of blows from your salon participation. :)
Whom is the letter addressed to?
So that one is actually addressed to the Comte de Solms-Sonnewalde, who I think was the Russian envoy. 1780. So different from the one Ziebura refers to (in person to the Oberkammerherr von Loos, per Lehndorff) which means Fritz, as he so often does (and as I do and Maupertuis no doubt also did), repeats his favorite anecdotes and historical references.
The Lehndorff volume Ziebura cites, btw, is volume 4, so right around the time of 1780, plus or minus a few years. Clearly Fritz had hit on a winning formula for "I don't give a fuck."
worth pointing out that for all the Habsburg related jokes there, another reason why MT was an aberration
Yep, I was thinking of her! (Back when I was ~15-17, I spent hoooours on this one massive European royal genealogy site, tracing out the family trees of everyone I knew, and one of my hobbies was finding out how spouses were related. I remember being quite pleased that I connected Fritz and EC on the first try just by guessing (and that was a few generations back!) and was very much BAD IDEA! about FW and SD. I remember nodding approvingly at MT's parents and her marriage.
My mother, our family genealogist, could never get me to show the slightest interest in our own family tree, though. :P)