Frederick the Great, discussion post 16
Jul. 14th, 2020 09:12 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnWe have slowed down a lot, but are still (sporadically) going! And somehow filled up the last post while I wasn't looking!
...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D
...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D
Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-08-28 09:39 pm (UTC)Sigh.
FW really thinks he is God and created his offspring in his image.
Which would explain why Peter just gets transferred and not punished or threatened with hellfire.
Yeah, I keep going back and forth on what would get you transferred but not cashiered by FW. Not!Robert got pressured into helping with the escape attempt, then voluntarily fessed up and plea bargained, and he got the same deal Peter had six months earlier: dismissed as page, given a promotion to lieutenant, sent to a regiment in Wesel. (FW: "It worked so well the first time!" :P Though to be fair, what he actually wrote to not!Robert's new commander was, "He should be more honest than his brother the rogue.")
So Peter fessing up, probably not, not if Fritz continued to trust him and involve him in plans. But given that Fritz voluntarily and consistently in late 1730 said that escaping was his idea, he talked everyone else into it, and he didn't want his friends punished--well, whatever it was in January 1730 wasn't bad enough that FW felt the need to punish both parties like he did in November 1730. So I very much doubt, say, anal penetration was what Fritz and Peter got caught at. But whether it was book reading, kissing and fondling, or something else, it's very likely that Fritz took the blame, FW assumed the worst of his son, or both, and Peter didn't get the lion's share of FW's wrath.
I imagine whatever Peter said, he was careful to appease FW and also not to blame Fritz. Sth like, "I'm so sorry, I know I shouldn't have, I was weak, it won't happen again-"
FW: No, it won't, because you'll be in Wesel, far, far away from my wretched son.
Let's also remember that FW wasn't always as harsh as November 1730. On at least one previous occasion, he found out that Fritz had run up debts and he was like, "I'll pay them, I just wish he'd be honest and not sneak around." The final time, it was maximum sentences for everyone who had helped or even associated with Fritz in any way.
So just because Fritz failed to get Katte or Peter's sentences lightened by taking the blame on himself in late 1730, doesn't mean he wouldn't have been successful in early 1730.
And there's also: becoming a lieutenant is a promotion, true, but even leaving aside the distance from Fritz, it was apparently a very low-prestige regiment at the time.
All of which is to say, could have been some light fooling around (whether or not they passed it off as masturbation), could have been book reading, could have been something else. Koser thinks it was an escape plan.
I'e always questioned that on the grounds that surely FW would have reacted more harshly, but...he actually wasn't *that* harsh on August 6-August 9, after Fritz's attempt was discovered but before Peter's was. It was only when the escape plan turned out to have been coordinated across a large geographical area, to have been successful as far as at least one member was concerned, and to have involved England that FW started seeing conspiracies. And January 1730 is when that mass desertion conspiracy among the Potsdam Giants was uncovered. (I looked yet again for Kloosterhuis' 700-page "Lange Kerls" book, and I still can't find it cheaper than $136. Sigh. NO, self.)
So maybe Kloosterhuis is right, and FW has escape on his mind and is just separating Fritz from anyone he suspects might try to help, while tightening the guard on him.
FOOLING AROUND HEADCANON :P
he couldn't have objected if his mother at her court would have (openly, not in secret) provided Fritz with cultural opportunities.
Hmm. Could he have kept Fritz mostly away from her? How far does filial obedience to a legally powerless mother extend?
Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-08-29 06:40 am (UTC)I think this is also why he had an easier time with the girls other than Wilhelmine (once it was clear she and Fritz were indivisible and she sided with SD in the big marriage battle). In as much as he paid any attention to them at all, that is, but he did write affectione letters to Charlotte and Friederike once they were married. (Of course, they from him pov did everything right - married without arguing whom they were supposed to, produced grandchildren.) Daughters were a different species and he never expected them to be like himself. It also explains why he initially took to AW, thereby creating a positive loop instead of a negative one, despite the fact that AW in the end wasn't much like FW. AW as toddler had just enough similarities for FW to believe that this was finally the kid he'd wanted to have all along, to wit, he enjoyed playing with soldiers and canons, he liked sports - to overlook that actually, their tempers couldn't be more differently. (Tiny Terror FW beats up cousin George, swallows golden shoelaces in protest and makes his teachers cry, kid AW's policy when interacting with adults seems to be to charm them, and far from being jealeous of other children, he's delighted about sharing rooms with Heinrich.
(I'm still not over adult AW in 1744, writing his "my life so far" retrospective for his newborn son, regarding four years old Heinrich moving in with him as the big event of 1730.)
Now granted, Tiny Terror FW was an only child (and as the one and only heir a very precious one in every sense) whereas AW was the spare to the heir and one of many siblings when he was born, but still, they were both given the "apple of the eye" treatment by the most powerful adults around them, and FW was raised with his cousins in a sibling-like situation for a while. (Resulting in him beating them up, where AW took to Heinrich and then Ferdinand with joy.)
All of which goes to show: FW had expectations of his kids but he also saw what he wanted to see. Unfortunately, it was clear early on that little Fritz' interests were not his interests, while the mere fact little AW liked some of the same things he'd done was enough to further the (for AW fortunate) misunderstanding that they were alike and he'd finally gotten his replica.
If Sophie Charlotte had lived: Hmm. Could he have kept Fritz mostly away from her? How far does filial obedience to a legally powerless mother extend?
Good question. The 19th century Prussian historians think he didn't like his mother ("not a good Christian"), as he despised all she loved and through his life rejected what she had valued, but Barbara Beuys does reproduce enough letters and actions from young FW to demonstrate that's not exactly true. His grandmother may have noticably gone from "OMG how cute tiny FW is!" (in the ballet when he was six) to "his father adores him" (when FW was twelve) in her letters, but young FW when visiting Brussels for the first time took the trouble to hunt down some paintings for his mother and to describe others to her which he'd seen because he knew she loved them. These were baroque opulent paintings with pagan subjects, not religious stuff. Bear in mind that even at F1's court, where the militarisation hadn't happened yet and where the genders weren't that strictly separated, young FW still had no reason to interact with his mother on more than official court occasions once he was a teenager, and yet he still sought out her company. (Mind you, of course Sophie Charlotte hadn't done any more hands-on raising than the other princesses of the era - that had been Madame de Roucoulles.)
There's also my old speculation that FW accepting SD kicking him out of bed instead of committing outright marital rape, and taking the punch from Frau von Pannewitz instead of either forcing her or punishing her for her rjection might have had to do with the fact his mother had been a strong-willed lady who got to set the rules in her own marriage. (F1 famously was only allowed to come to Charlottenburg - once he'd given her the place - if she explicitly invited him to, and he abided by that. )
And FW really was sentimental about the whole family concept, perhaps precisely because h'd been an only child. He wanted an adoring wife and many children surrounding him. So I don't think he'd been emotionally capable of, say, practically banishing his mother if Sophie Charlotte had lived, or forbidding his children to visit her. Assuming she wouldn't have moved back to Hannover (or gone to England) after F1's death, but would have stayed in Prussia, and would have maintained her own little court at Charlottenburg, I really have no idea how he'd have responded to her encouraging the grandkids culturally. Because as opposed to his wife, him trying to forbid her to do this would presumably just have resulted in a raised eyebrow and her doing it anyway. She definitely would not have felt threatened or intimdated, because he had no social power over her.
Another question is: what would SD have done? Because she wasn't a good mother-in-law even when it was no question of her oldest daughter-in-law being her rival, even when Fritz had made it clear from the get go she was the true first lady of Prussia. This was not a woman easily putting up with competition for the Queen spot. And Sophie Charlotte wouldn't just have been any Queen Mother. She had been one of the most praised queens of Europe in her time, despite of her kingdom being thought of as little more than a joke. Both when she was on the marriage market and after, her beauty was heralded. She was praised for making Berlin "Athens on the Spree" long before Fritz' time. The great Leipniz raved about her intellect. Young Sophie Charlotte had been to Versailles, even, while SD despite her English marriage fixation had never seen more than Hannover and Brandenburg. In short, it would be like competing with royal glamour personified, while simultanously your husband starts his austerity program.
Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-08-30 01:00 am (UTC)Exactly. Much like the SD-Wilhelmine dynamic, vs. SD and Fritz.
AW as toddler had just enough similarities for FW to believe that this was finally the kid he'd wanted to have all along, to wit, he enjoyed playing with soldiers and canons, he liked sports - to overlook that actually, their tempers couldn't be more differently.
FW *definitely* latched onto superficials here. I mean, the kid that you're worried about being soft and effeminate is sticking to his guns in the face of increasing pain, humiliation, and fear of death. If that isn't a will of iron, I don't know what is.
And FW really was sentimental about the whole family concept, perhaps precisely because h'd been an only child. He wanted an adoring wife and many children surrounding him. So I don't think he'd been emotionally capable of, say, practically banishing his mother if Sophie Charlotte had lived, or forbidding his children to visit her.
Oh, very true, and good point.
I really have no idea how he'd have responded to her encouraging the grandkids culturally. Because as opposed to his wife, him trying to forbid her to do this would presumably just have resulted in a raised eyebrow and her doing it anyway. She definitely would not have felt threatened or intimdated, because he had no social power over her.
That is really interesting. But suppose it weren't FW, but someone less into respecting their parents. What would the actual consequences have been if he'd decided to physically keep his kids away from her and say that they were only allowed to carry out their military duties, attend church, and study the administration and smattering of history that he authorized? Because there's de jure power, and then there's de facto power. Who's on her side if he locks the kids away from her?
I guess it's the same as my question of "If Fritz had divorced EC, who would have *made* him get married again?"
Even today, at least in the US, parents have the right to keep their kids away from the grandparents, short of a court order (how that works depends on the state). I don't know about Germany.
But I agree with you that FW's personality would have led him to have a great deal of trouble defying Mom's wishes, in much the same way as he gave Dad the lavish funeral before beginning the reign of austerity. And I don't know how that would have played out in this AU.
Maybe it would have worked out better for poor Fritz and Wilhelmine. :(
what would SD have done? Because she wasn't a good mother-in-law even when it was no question of her oldest daughter-in-law being her rival, even when Fritz had made it clear from the get go she was the true first lady of Prussia. This was not a woman easily putting up with competition for the Queen spot. And Sophie Charlotte wouldn't just have been any Queen Mother.
In short, it would be like competing with royal glamour personified, while simultanously your husband starts his austerity program.
Oh, man. But Sophie Charlotte's presumably behind the English marriage, right? Is it possible they just become allies in the face of FW's crazy, and SC makes it so SD can have more glamor at her own court?
she wasn't a good mother-in-law even when it was no question of her oldest daughter-in-law being her rival, even when Fritz had made it clear from the get go she was the true first lady of Prussia.
How much of that was because she despised her daughters-in-law, though? How would she have reacted to Mina as Fritz's wife? (Not a rhetorical question.)
(I'm still not over adult AW in 1744, writing his "my life so far" retrospective for his newborn son, regarding four years old Heinrich moving in with him as the big event of 1730.)
I got to that yesterday, and I'm glad you prepared me, because that was really something else! And she does actually say that he doesn't mention either Ferdinand's birth or Fritz's escape and imprisonment. It's not just that she didn't quote them for us, which I think had been a point of doubt before.
Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-08-30 04:46 am (UTC)But Sophie Charlotte's presumably behind the English marriage, right? Is it possible they just become allies in the face of FW's crazy, and SC makes it so SD can have more glamor at her own court?
Could be. As to whether SC would have been on Team Hannover, initially yes, of course, but I'm not sure she'd have insisted the way SD did once it turned into such a controversial subject, not least because she wouldn't have felt the need for Wilhelmine to live the life she didn't get the way SD did. She also in rl wasn't partisan in the marriage negotiations she did live long enough to experience, i.e. for foster daughter Caroline. Remember, for a hot minute Caroline was considered as a bride for MT's future dad before he settled on a Brunswick princess instead. Sophie Charlotte would have been on board with that and wouldn't have minded the need to convert; she herself had, also for a hot minute, been considered for marriage into the French Royal family, after all, which also would have necessitated conversion, and her mother Sophie, aka The Protestant Heir To The English Throne, was utterly nonchalant and practical about this.
So I'm not sure that SC would have been all "my grandson must marry a Hannover princess by all means!" once FW started to be against it (which he wasn't from the get go). Who knows, maybe this would have happened:
FW: Mom, please tell me you're not encouraging my wife this Hannover/Britain Or Nothing! campaign.
SC: I don't. It would have been nice, but if you're that much against it, darling, well, I'm sure my brother George can find other suitors.
FW: Thank you, you're a good mother.
SC:...which is why I've thought of an alternate match. After all, it doesn't look like that Brunswick girl whom the Emperor took instead of Caroline will provide him with sons any time soon. So, I've been thinking: how about an Archduchess for our Fritz? Especially considering how strongly you feel about your loyalty to the Emperor. And I'm sure he'd have no choice but to back your claims to Berg and Jülich then.
FW: ....BUT WHAT ABOUT THE POPERY?!? NO SON OF MINE...
SC: Oh, hush. It would only be for show, and I'm sure he'll return to the true faith as soon as the Emperor has kicked the bucket and introduce Protestantism in Vienna. Isn't that a godly cause worthy to cheer for? Along with making the House of Brandenburg the ruling dynasty of the HRE?
How much of that was because she despised her daughters-in-law, though? How would she have reacted to Mina as Fritz's wife? (Not a rhetorical question.)
Hm. On the one hand: Mina has all the refinement and beauty SD requires. On the other: she's really minor nobility - the daughter not even of a ruling prince but a younger prince from a Hesse sideline. Good enough for third son Heinrich, but for beloved first son and future King Fritz? Then again: this means SD still is the superior woman, as she's the daughter and sister of English Kings and can trace her bloodline back for a thousand years.
Lastly: let's not forget that in addition to SD taking against Wilhelmine because of the Bayreuth marriage, there's also an undertone of "who gets to be the most important woman to Fritz?" While she calmed down towards EC once it became clear EC never would even be in the running, and certainly would not be treated as more important than SD by anyone, from Fritz to the lowest Berlin citizen.
Now, Fritz presumably would not have been in love with Mina any more than he was with EC, but he might have gotten along with her better (and certainly would have been pleased she could do all the courtly stuff and was regarded as an ornament to the court). Still, even under the best of circumstances I can't see him letting her get close to him emotionally.
In conclusion: while I don't think SD would have been as enthusiastic about Mina as wife to her first son the way she was about her as wife to her third, for as long as it's made clear she's still the most important woman in Prussia both in terms of social standing and to Fritz, she'd have been okay with her, limiting herself to a few asides about Mina's lower nobility status early on and later a few pointed questions as to why there's no grandkid yet in terms of criticism.
Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-08-30 06:07 pm (UTC)Oh, yes, very good point.
FW: ....BUT WHAT ABOUT THE POPERY?!? NO SON OF MINE...
SC: Oh, hush. It would only be for show
LOL, I'm sold, this is how it would have happened!
I'm sure he'll return to the true faith as soon as the Emperor has kicked the bucket and introduce Protestantism in Vienna.
This is totally what I would say to FW as a persuasive technique! But actual Fritz...so on the one hand, he's got a pragmatic side, where he's willing to attend church during wartime, or have the court wear mourning for Isabella and stuff--the trappings, for public support. But his actual decisions fly in the face of whatever emperor has nominal authority over him.
So...Emperor Fritz remains nominally Catholic but gets excommunicated, thus continuing a long and respectable tradition of Pope/Emperor conflict?
Does a Fritz already in possession of Silesia (tu felix Frederice nube) continue the tradition of leading his army over the Alps and biting off more than (or in his case, possibly exactly as much as, as with Silesia) he can chew?
Does he get into a multi-front war with various Italian states to the south and Austria-Hungary to the north(-east), as MT rallies the Catholics to side with the Pope against her husband? Does MT pull off the Diplomatic Revolution with the French as fellow defenders of the faith?
I can see AW deciding his allegiance is to Big Bro emperor, and Heinrich winning some victories in Central Europe. Maybe more without Big Bro around?
Also, it would be totally hilarious if AW inherits in May 1740 and Fritz in October 1740, and Fritz decides not to recognize the Prussian Jülich-Berg claims. :P
but he might have gotten along with her better (and certainly would have been pleased she could do all the courtly stuff and was regarded as an ornament to the court)
Agreed. I suspect they would have had roughly the same number of interactions, as he relentlessly distanced her from power, but they might have been politer interactions.
while I don't think SD would have been as enthusiastic about Mina as wife to her first son the way she was about her as wife to her third, for as long as it's made clear she's still the most important woman in Prussia both in terms of social standing and to Fritz, she'd have been okay with her
Makes sense. And if niece Amelia, of impeccable bloodline, had shown up in Prussia married to Fritz, as per SD's *one wish*?
And speaking of grandparental AUs...
On the one hand, I've always been convinced, and I know you agree, that a Fritz raised by someone like Eugene of Savoy--kind and homosexual and in love with the arts, and also in love with having an army and a treasury to pass on to his beloved and well-treated son Fritz--still invades Silesia at the same time for the same reasons. (And possibly is more open to tactics other than decisive battles with monstrous casualties on both sides, because *that* strikes me as a "fight" reflex that got reinforced bigtime by trauma. And also possibly doesn't insult and betray other European powers quite so much. TBD.)
On the other hand, if Fritz had been raised by F1 (and SC if she lives long enough), and inherited a bankrupt kingdom without one of the finest armies in Europe...I'm not convinced that Fritz does an FW and invents frugality and militarism on his own. Workaholism maybe.
If he does, of course, he doesn't have the money and the army by November of 1740. But I'm not sure he does at all. He might have turned out more like August the Strong, minus the drinking, fox-tossing, mistresses, etc., of course.
What do you think?
Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-08-31 04:46 am (UTC)This is totally what I would say to FW as a persuasive technique! But actual Fritz...so on the one hand, he's got a pragmatic side, where he's willing to attend church during wartime, or have the court wear mourning for Isabella and stuff--the trappings, for public support. But his actual decisions fly in the face of whatever emperor has nominal authority over him.
So...Emperor Fritz remains nominally Catholic but gets excommunicated, thus continuing a long and respectable tradition of Pope/Emperor conflict?
Does a Fritz already in possession of Silesia (tu felix Frederice nube) continue the tradition of leading his army over the Alps and biting off more than (or in his case, possibly exactly as much as, as with Silesia) he can chew?
Does he get into a multi-front war with various Italian states to the south and Austria-Hungary to the north(-east), as MT rallies the Catholics to side with the Pope against her husband? Does MT pull off the Diplomatic Revolution with the French as fellow defenders of the faith?
I can see AW deciding his allegiance is to Big Bro emperor, and Heinrich winning some victories in Central Europe. Maybe more without Big Bro around?
Also, it would be totally hilarious if AW inherits in May 1740 and Fritz in October 1740, and Fritz decides not to recognize the Prussian Jülich-Berg claims. :P
*seriously rethinks whether maybe I should ask for MT for Yuletide in addition to or instead of Heinrich*
Re: AW readthrough
Date: 2020-08-30 04:13 am (UTC)(Source: one of my kids is super charming and good-natured, and you can practically see that positive feedback loop taking place when that child is around adults, while my other kid is a perfectly nice kid but hasn't got nearly the amount of innate charm. Adults seem to like that child as well, but it's definitely more of an effort, and FW wasn't the sort of person who would have even understood making an effort. (As opposed to Lehndorff :P :) ) )