Frederick the Great discussion post 15

[cahn]

...I have nothing clever to say here, just really pleased this is still going :)
rheinsberg

Comments

Re: Der Vater Revisited - II

[selenak]

You're right, you unearthed Karl Emil already, and I had forgotten again! I'm still amused about the idea we might have gotten den einzigen Emil and a lot of other Emils in German history instead of all the Fritzes.

The sacrifice of Isaac: is is, of course, telling that this is not a parallel occuring to rl FW, because unlike Absalom, both Isaac and the ram substituted for him are innocent. Ditto with the Küstrin Preacher making the David and Jonathan comparison (which implicitly casts FW as Saul), and all but calling Katte a martyr (clad in White, with Christ's blood on him, standing in front of God's throne with the angels), which again FW would never have done (either in fiction or rl). Whereas if you cast FW as Abraham (or let him cast himself as Abraham), you pick father willing to sacrifice his son BUT not due to any evil intent, and very much against his inclination; it is God's demand and God's test of his faith. (When I was at school, this was one of the most upsetting stories of the entire bible to child!me.)

Forgot to mention this in my write up, but: the 900 plus pages version has a Fredersdorf cameo! In Klepper's version, he's a part of the Küstrin regiment, feels sorry for Fritz and plays oboe (not flute) under his window to cheer him up. It is mentioned he's good looking. (As with all rl descriptions of Fredersdorf.) Like I said, you do get the sense that Klepper wanted to make it as clear as possible in novel published in 1936 Germany that Fritz was gay.

Abraham

[cahn]

Whereas if you cast FW as Abraham (or let him cast himself as Abraham), you pick father willing to sacrifice his son BUT not due to any evil intent, and very much against his inclination; it is God's demand and God's test of his faith.

*nods* Yes, that's what makes it so fascinating -- there aren't any bad guys in the story, at least human bad guys.

(When I was at school, this was one of the most upsetting stories of the entire bible to child!me.)

Because it's a really upsetting story! Being the deeply unselfaware child I was, it didn't bother me that much when I was a small person, but it sure did bother me once I grew up enough to actually think about it. And especially when I had my own kid(s). (I taught this story at church two years ago and led into the discussion by saying, "We have a word for people who kill their children because they said God told them to. That word is 'insane.'")

Re: Abraham

[selenak]

Just last year or thereabouts I learned through Vol.3 of Simon Callow's biography of Orson Welles that Welles in the 60s was supposed to do the Abraham and Isaac in that biblical sandal movie where they hired famous directors to shoot a different bible story each.

And Welles had an idea for it, but it was completely rejected, so he quit the project. The idea was: Isaac doesn't go along with this willingly and passively, as in nearly all depictions through history. (I think the only exception is Caravaggio, go figure.) Instead, he's screaming and struggling and begging his father not to kill him, he's fighting for his life. And the producers were absolutely shocked by the idea, it would freak out the audience who came to be elevated. But, quoth Orson, that's what this story is. A child is about to be murdered.

I did my own version when I wrote a Star Trek: DS9 story about Jake Sisko called "Abraham's Son", because the episode in question - where he's nearly sacrificed as a test of Sisko's faith - really begs for it.

Of course, when I was a child we weren't taught that preceding chapter in the bible where Abraham is already persuaded to send Hagar and his other son into the desert earlier than that...

Re: Abraham

[mildred_of_midgard]

cahn, I see you're the author of one of my favorite "Abraham's Daughter" fanfics. (That was you! I feel like I had found this out before, but then forgotten.)

You know what would be the most cool? A Wilhelmine take on that song! Either totally AU where she completely cathartically threatens to SHOOT DAD, or the semi-canonical one where she bargains with her marriage to get Fritz treated better. (Semi-canonical because her memoirs make it sound like he was released from prison and given a regiment a few days after her marriage as a direct result thereof, whereas we know that that didn't happen until a couple months later, when he agreed to his own marriage. Way to kill two birds with one stone, FW.)

Re: Abraham

[cahn]

Eeeee! That's my favorite thing as a fanfic writer, being told "oh, you wrote *thing*!"

...which Abraham's Daughter fic did you like, the one with genderbent Tyndale or the one where angels are repositories of possible futures? (Also: I am filled with glee at my previous life choices that have meant that I could type that sentence.)

Re: Abraham

[mildred_of_midgard]

Genderbent Tyndale! It was all textual and stuff, and to my eternal shame, it appears I didn't even leave kudos. *remedies*

But I will like the one where Wilhelmine takes on FW even better, hint hint. Just think of that life choice!

Re: Abraham

[cahn]

ahahahaha! Yes, that is a good life choice also :D

Re: Abraham

[cahn]

Instead, he's screaming and struggling and begging his father not to kill him, he's fighting for his life. And the producers were absolutely shocked by the idea, it would freak out the audience who came to be elevated. But, quoth Orson, that's what this story is. A child is about to be murdered.

Wow, that's really cool. And go Welles.

Of course, when I was a child we weren't taught that preceding chapter in the bible where Abraham is already persuaded to send Hagar and his other son into the desert earlier than that...

Ha, good point. There's a reading of this where Abraham is just a really sucky dad :P