Wow. That is quite some whitewashing. I can totally see where it makes a good novel although bad history (totally valid choice, imo!). Also, seriously, good for you for your identifications of most likely sources! Look how far we've come in this fandom. :D
That is also a super interesting take on Katte an Isaac figure.
Would I reccommend it to you? Not exactly, not with some much else to read
I was thinking, as I read your write-up, thank you for reading this so I don't have to! Seriously, it was well worth the read as a summary, but I'm not rushing to read the book. So thanks!
But I hadn't known that F1's oldest brother was, in fact, called Karl Emil.
I just want to point out that I totally found this guy when you asked and, in my capacity as royal detective and genealogist, linked to him, here's the proof. ;) I just couldn't figure out what made Fritz particularly interested in him as opposed to the other possible namesakes. But yeah, maybe he was getting overloaded by the number of Friedrichs, Wilhelms, Heinrichs, and Ludwigs in the family, and "Hans Hermann" would have been too obvious. :P
Well, there are other things I would like to comment on, just as there are at least a dozen accumulated comments by now that I haven't replied to at all, but...my computer time for the last two months has been severely limited by muscle pain. I've increasingly been spending my time here on fanfic, since there is nowhere else I can write (handwriting is right out due to other types of muscle pain), and occasional lengthy write-ups on pedagogy. With my plans to return to work asap, my limited computer time is going to get sucked up completely by work, which means I probably won't be able to comment much, if at all, except possibly on weekends. That also means fanfic is going to take a hit. :(
Fortunately, I can still study German and read on my phone, and my concentration is coming back (hence the plans to return to work), so in the event that I'm able to start leaving comments, whether on weekends or in some mythical future in which there is an actual solution to one or more of these muscle pain types, I hope to have a lot more to say!
But if you don't hear from me as much, and in fact haven't seen me reply to a bunch of comments lately, do know that I'm delightedly reading and thinking lots of things that I wish I could more easily share.
Also, I just want to say that I've been off work and basically suffering from some combination of pain, sleep deprivation, and medication side effects for a year now, and my interactions with you two have seriously SAVED my SANITY. And given me a fantastic education to boot! Honestly, at least two thirds of what I know in this fandom comes from a magnificent royal reader, one that Fritz could only dream of and Henri de Catt envy, who read and summarized all the works I couldn't read.
This is by far the best fandom experience I've ever had, it was tailor-made for me at this time in my life, and I hope to be able to keep it up at least in truncated form, and perhaps even resume full participation if I manage to find a solution to the pain in time, in which case I dream of coming back with "Let me tell you all the OTHER things I've found out since the last installment!" :D
I love this SO MUCH! My detective icon is the best! They're all great, but I'm all HEEEE!! over the fact that I have my very own emoji. :DDDD Also the fact that we have our own story, and it is the BEST story.
I'm also beyond amazed at you constantly exhibit new skills, of which fluency in the language of emojis is only the latest. <3
Says the linguistic marvel who could read the Iliad and the Nibelungenlied in the original. Seriously, I'm so very very happy to have "met" you, and emojiis are the least I can do!
<33333333 Hey, I'm really glad your concentration is coming back!
This has just been amazing and I'm so glad to have been a part of it. I can't even tell you what it's been like to wake up every morning and get to see what kind of amazing research or ficlet or crack AU or whatever is waiting in my inbox -- oh wait, I don't have to tell you, you know :D <333333
You're right, you unearthed Karl Emil already, and I had forgotten again! I'm still amused about the idea we might have gotten den einzigen Emil and a lot of other Emils in German history instead of all the Fritzes.
The sacrifice of Isaac: is is, of course, telling that this is not a parallel occuring to rl FW, because unlike Absalom, both Isaac and the ram substituted for him are innocent. Ditto with the Küstrin Preacher making the David and Jonathan comparison (which implicitly casts FW as Saul), and all but calling Katte a martyr (clad in White, with Christ's blood on him, standing in front of God's throne with the angels), which again FW would never have done (either in fiction or rl). Whereas if you cast FW as Abraham (or let him cast himself as Abraham), you pick father willing to sacrifice his son BUT not due to any evil intent, and very much against his inclination; it is God's demand and God's test of his faith. (When I was at school, this was one of the most upsetting stories of the entire bible to child!me.)
Forgot to mention this in my write up, but: the 900 plus pages version has a Fredersdorf cameo! In Klepper's version, he's a part of the Küstrin regiment, feels sorry for Fritz and plays oboe (not flute) under his window to cheer him up. It is mentioned he's good looking. (As with all rl descriptions of Fredersdorf.) Like I said, you do get the sense that Klepper wanted to make it as clear as possible in novel published in 1936 Germany that Fritz was gay.
Whereas if you cast FW as Abraham (or let him cast himself as Abraham), you pick father willing to sacrifice his son BUT not due to any evil intent, and very much against his inclination; it is God's demand and God's test of his faith.
*nods* Yes, that's what makes it so fascinating -- there aren't any bad guys in the story, at least human bad guys.
(When I was at school, this was one of the most upsetting stories of the entire bible to child!me.)
Because it's a really upsetting story! Being the deeply unselfaware child I was, it didn't bother me that much when I was a small person, but it sure did bother me once I grew up enough to actually think about it. And especially when I had my own kid(s). (I taught this story at church two years ago and led into the discussion by saying, "We have a word for people who kill their children because they said God told them to. That word is 'insane.'")
Just last year or thereabouts I learned through Vol.3 of Simon Callow's biography of Orson Welles that Welles in the 60s was supposed to do the Abraham and Isaac in that biblical sandal movie where they hired famous directors to shoot a different bible story each.
And Welles had an idea for it, but it was completely rejected, so he quit the project. The idea was: Isaac doesn't go along with this willingly and passively, as in nearly all depictions through history. (I think the only exception is Caravaggio, go figure.) Instead, he's screaming and struggling and begging his father not to kill him, he's fighting for his life. And the producers were absolutely shocked by the idea, it would freak out the audience who came to be elevated. But, quoth Orson, that's what this story is. A child is about to be murdered.
I did my own version when I wrote a Star Trek: DS9 story about Jake Sisko called "Abraham's Son", because the episode in question - where he's nearly sacrificed as a test of Sisko's faith - really begs for it.
Of course, when I was a child we weren't taught that preceding chapter in the bible where Abraham is already persuaded to send Hagar and his other son into the desert earlier than that...
cahn, I see you're the author of one of my favorite "Abraham's Daughter" fanfics. (That was you! I feel like I had found this out before, but then forgotten.)
You know what would be the most cool? A Wilhelmine take on that song! Either totally AU where she completely cathartically threatens to SHOOT DAD, or the semi-canonical one where she bargains with her marriage to get Fritz treated better. (Semi-canonical because her memoirs make it sound like he was released from prison and given a regiment a few days after her marriage as a direct result thereof, whereas we know that that didn't happen until a couple months later, when he agreed to his own marriage. Way to kill two birds with one stone, FW.)
Eeeee! That's my favorite thing as a fanfic writer, being told "oh, you wrote *thing*!"
...which Abraham's Daughter fic did you like, the one with genderbent Tyndale or the one where angels are repositories of possible futures? (Also: I am filled with glee at my previous life choices that have meant that I could type that sentence.)
Instead, he's screaming and struggling and begging his father not to kill him, he's fighting for his life. And the producers were absolutely shocked by the idea, it would freak out the audience who came to be elevated. But, quoth Orson, that's what this story is. A child is about to be murdered.
Wow, that's really cool. And go Welles.
Of course, when I was a child we weren't taught that preceding chapter in the bible where Abraham is already persuaded to send Hagar and his other son into the desert earlier than that...
Ha, good point. There's a reading of this where Abraham is just a really sucky dad :P
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Der Vater Revisited - II
Date: 2020-05-24 09:27 am (UTC)That is also a super interesting take on Katte an Isaac figure.
Would I reccommend it to you? Not exactly, not with some much else to read
I was thinking, as I read your write-up, thank you for reading this so I don't have to! Seriously, it was well worth the read as a summary, but I'm not rushing to read the book. So thanks!
But I hadn't known that F1's oldest brother was, in fact, called Karl Emil.
I just want to point out that I totally found this guy when you asked and, in my capacity as royal detective and genealogist, linked to him, here's the proof. ;) I just couldn't figure out what made Fritz particularly interested in him as opposed to the other possible namesakes. But yeah, maybe he was getting overloaded by the number of Friedrichs, Wilhelms, Heinrichs, and Ludwigs in the family, and "Hans Hermann" would have been too obvious. :P
Well, there are other things I would like to comment on, just as there are at least a dozen accumulated comments by now that I haven't replied to at all, but...my computer time for the last two months has been severely limited by muscle pain. I've increasingly been spending my time here on fanfic, since there is nowhere else I can write (handwriting is right out due to other types of muscle pain), and occasional lengthy write-ups on pedagogy. With my plans to return to work asap, my limited computer time is going to get sucked up completely by work, which means I probably won't be able to comment much, if at all, except possibly on weekends. That also means fanfic is going to take a hit. :(
Fortunately, I can still study German and read on my phone, and my concentration is coming back (hence the plans to return to work), so in the event that I'm able to start leaving comments, whether on weekends or in some mythical future in which there is an actual solution to one or more of these muscle pain types, I hope to have a lot more to say!
But if you don't hear from me as much, and in fact haven't seen me reply to a bunch of comments lately, do know that I'm delightedly reading and thinking lots of things that I wish I could more easily share.
Also, I just want to say that I've been off work and basically suffering from some combination of pain, sleep deprivation, and medication side effects for a year now, and my interactions with you two have seriously SAVED my SANITY. And given me a fantastic education to boot! Honestly, at least two thirds of what I know in this fandom comes from a magnificent royal reader, one that Fritz could only dream of and Henri de Catt envy, who read and summarized all the works I couldn't read.
This is by far the best fandom experience I've ever had, it was tailor-made for me at this time in my life, and I hope to be able to keep it up at least in truncated form, and perhaps even resume full participation if I manage to find a solution to the pain in time, in which case I dream of coming back with "Let me tell you all the OTHER things I've found out since the last installment!" :D
But in the meantime, thank you both, so much.
The story thus far...
Date: 2020-05-24 08:31 pm (UTC)🕵🏻♀️ Mildred, a scholarly detective
👩🏻💻selenak, a writing reader
👱🏻♀️: ❤️🎼📀 ❗️💤🎭 📖❗️
👩🏻💻: ❓🎭📖💖❗️🔝🤴🏻➕🙋🏻➕🧟♂️👑.
👱🏻♀️:👂
🕵🏻♀️: ❤️🤴🏻❤️📜‼️
👱🏻♀️: 📧🕵🏻♀️👩🏻💻
🕵🏻♀️👩🏻💻: 💬🤴🏻💬👸💬🧝🏻💬
👱🏻♀️🤝🕵🏻♀️🤝👩🏻💻
👱🏻♀️🕵🏻♀️👩🏻💻:❤️🎼📖🔎📚📝❤️
Re: The story thus far...
Date: 2020-05-25 01:48 am (UTC)I'm also beyond amazed at you constantly exhibit new skills, of which fluency in the language of emojis is only the latest. <3
Re: The story thus far...
Date: 2020-05-25 12:56 pm (UTC)Re: The story thus far...
Date: 2020-05-25 05:09 am (UTC)I just love everything about this. I may have been laughing and tearing up at the same time, how is that even possible?
Okay, yes, the detective icon is amazing :D I also think my salon hostess icon is quite fetching :D
<3333333333333333
Re: Der Vater Revisited - II
Date: 2020-05-25 05:04 am (UTC)This has just been amazing and I'm so glad to have been a part of it. I can't even tell you what it's been like to wake up every morning and get to see what kind of amazing research or ficlet or crack AU or whatever is waiting in my inbox -- oh wait, I don't have to tell you, you know :D <333333
Re: Der Vater Revisited - II
Date: 2020-05-25 12:55 pm (UTC)The sacrifice of Isaac: is is, of course, telling that this is not a parallel occuring to rl FW, because unlike Absalom, both Isaac and the ram substituted for him are innocent. Ditto with the Küstrin Preacher making the David and Jonathan comparison (which implicitly casts FW as Saul), and all but calling Katte a martyr (clad in White, with Christ's blood on him, standing in front of God's throne with the angels), which again FW would never have done (either in fiction or rl). Whereas if you cast FW as Abraham (or let him cast himself as Abraham), you pick father willing to sacrifice his son BUT not due to any evil intent, and very much against his inclination; it is God's demand and God's test of his faith. (When I was at school, this was one of the most upsetting stories of the entire bible to child!me.)
Forgot to mention this in my write up, but: the 900 plus pages version has a Fredersdorf cameo! In Klepper's version, he's a part of the Küstrin regiment, feels sorry for Fritz and plays oboe (not flute) under his window to cheer him up. It is mentioned he's good looking. (As with all rl descriptions of Fredersdorf.) Like I said, you do get the sense that Klepper wanted to make it as clear as possible in novel published in 1936 Germany that Fritz was gay.
Abraham
Date: 2020-05-27 05:31 am (UTC)*nods* Yes, that's what makes it so fascinating -- there aren't any bad guys in the story, at least human bad guys.
(When I was at school, this was one of the most upsetting stories of the entire bible to child!me.)
Because it's a really upsetting story! Being the deeply unselfaware child I was, it didn't bother me that much when I was a small person, but it sure did bother me once I grew up enough to actually think about it. And especially when I had my own kid(s). (I taught this story at church two years ago and led into the discussion by saying, "We have a word for people who kill their children because they said God told them to. That word is 'insane.'")
Re: Abraham
Date: 2020-05-27 04:05 pm (UTC)And Welles had an idea for it, but it was completely rejected, so he quit the project. The idea was: Isaac doesn't go along with this willingly and passively, as in nearly all depictions through history. (I think the only exception is Caravaggio, go figure.) Instead, he's screaming and struggling and begging his father not to kill him, he's fighting for his life. And the producers were absolutely shocked by the idea, it would freak out the audience who came to be elevated. But, quoth Orson, that's what this story is. A child is about to be murdered.
I did my own version when I wrote a Star Trek: DS9 story about Jake Sisko called "Abraham's Son", because the episode in question - where he's nearly sacrificed as a test of Sisko's faith - really begs for it.
Of course, when I was a child we weren't taught that preceding chapter in the bible where Abraham is already persuaded to send Hagar and his other son into the desert earlier than that...
Re: Abraham
Date: 2020-05-28 12:53 am (UTC)You know what would be the most cool? A Wilhelmine take on that song! Either totally AU where she completely cathartically threatens to SHOOT DAD, or the semi-canonical one where she bargains with her marriage to get Fritz treated better. (Semi-canonical because her memoirs make it sound like he was released from prison and given a regiment a few days after her marriage as a direct result thereof, whereas we know that that didn't happen until a couple months later, when he agreed to his own marriage. Way to kill two birds with one stone, FW.)
Re: Abraham
Date: 2020-05-29 03:23 am (UTC)...which Abraham's Daughter fic did you like, the one with genderbent Tyndale or the one where angels are repositories of possible futures? (Also: I am filled with glee at my previous life choices that have meant that I could type that sentence.)
Re: Abraham
Date: 2020-05-29 07:15 pm (UTC)But I will like the one where Wilhelmine takes on FW even better, hint hint. Just think of that life choice!
Re: Abraham
Date: 2020-05-31 04:29 am (UTC)Re: Abraham
Date: 2020-05-29 03:52 am (UTC)Wow, that's really cool. And go Welles.
Of course, when I was a child we weren't taught that preceding chapter in the bible where Abraham is already persuaded to send Hagar and his other son into the desert earlier than that...
Ha, good point. There's a reading of this where Abraham is just a really sucky dad :P