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cahnFrederician fandom is the best! 3 stories in main archive and 2 stories in Madness, eeeeeeee and I have only managed to read my own gifts so far (well, I guess Madness isn't open yet either, but even if it had been I wouldn't have managed to have read them) but they are so goooooood
Also, I would like to apologize on behalf of the fandom that none of us apparently managed any Fritz/Voltaire. Some of us, uh, didn't know enough about Voltaire, and we are Taking Steps to attempt to rectify this in the future if anyone requests it, say, next year. Just saying.
I'm making this post because the last one has an insane number of comments, but I still owe SO many comments on the last post and I kiiiinda would like to read and comment on Yuletide stories for the next week as time permits so I almost hope this post doesn't get much action and then we resume in the new year? (Especially since there is a limited amount of discussion we can do on the fics right now!) :D I was thinking of making another post anyway for reveals.
(*) My husband D came up with this :P :)
Also, I would like to apologize on behalf of the fandom that none of us apparently managed any Fritz/Voltaire. Some of us, uh, didn't know enough about Voltaire, and we are Taking Steps to attempt to rectify this in the future if anyone requests it, say, next year. Just saying.
I'm making this post because the last one has an insane number of comments, but I still owe SO many comments on the last post and I kiiiinda would like to read and comment on Yuletide stories for the next week as time permits so I almost hope this post doesn't get much action and then we resume in the new year? (Especially since there is a limited amount of discussion we can do on the fics right now!) :D I was thinking of making another post anyway for reveals.
(*) My husband D came up with this :P :)
Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-28 12:23 pm (UTC)First impressions: mutual admiration society indeed. They lay it on so thick with "you're the greatest!" "no, you're the greatest!" that one is relieved when they talk about subjects other than themselves (Peter I., whether free will is possible when there's a God, Machiavelli) instead. Entertaining as those accolades are, they get tiring after a while, especially coming from people who at this stage haven't met yet. However, I would like to note Voltaire starts with the flirting. As in, when Fritz compares him to Socrates, "if I am Socrates, you are my Alcibiades, for you have his good qualities without his bad ones", equalling his relationships with Emilie and Fritz - "What do I care about the great Nothing, as long as divus Federicus et diva Emilia love me!" and, when news arrives that FW is just about to kick it, starting a letter with "I dream of my Prince the way one dreams of a mistress". (Pleschinski, who ought to know and is no homophobe (as well as gay himself), translates "einer Geliebten", not "einem Geliebten", i.e. Voltaire uses the female form.)
As for young Fritz, if one already starts in ultimate fanboy mode to the Greatest Living Writer (tm), one has to get really inventive to keep up the accolades without repetition. He takes to much care to always include Emilie in his greetings and to pay compliments to her even in the poems he writers to Voltaire - "le savoir d'Emilie et l'ésprit de Voltaire" are mankind's sublime graces, etc., - that one almost doesn't notice the one thing he pointedly does not do: issue a double invitation in all those "come to
mePrussia, why don't you, we would treasure you fare more than those ungrateful French!" urgings, despite Voltaire heavily hinting at one. Divus Fredericus is more of an Old Testament than a pagan god, and he would like to rule alone, thank you very much. Once he becomes King, it's mask off in that regard, and he writes point blank: "As for the divine Emilie, for all her divinity she is no more than the arm decoration of the Newtonian Apollo" whom he'd like to meet alone. (That's the last letter I've read so far.)Hilariously and also interesting in hindsight is the Peter the Great stuff. They both start out mostly admiring him, though Voltaire warns Fritz is to be inspired by him solely as a monarch, not as a human being. Then Fritz gets his hands on some memoirs detailing the whole gory Alexeji business and some other ruthless and gory acts. This may or may not have resonated on a personal level, but at any rate he shares the book with Voltaire. Who is all (paraphrasing, not quoting now) "okay, that's changed my image of Peter totally, but I'm still stumped, how can a man be a great reformer dragging his people forward into the modern age while at the same time being responsible for the deaths of so many of them? How can someone be a progressive spirit and yet such a petty tyrant at the same time!" You're about to find out, Voltaire.
Fritz is already badmouthing Machiavelli early on in the correspondance - cmplaining Voltaire lists him as one of the great minds of his age - so one assumes the Anti-Machiavel wasn't entirely out of calculation. He's also badmouthing Grandpa F1 and talking up Dad as a monarch, which could be both from sincere conviction and due to the possibility his letters could be read.
You're probably familiar with the passage where he praises Algarotti? (Whom he also rhymes with (Michelangelo) Buonarotti in a - separate - poem.)
Voltaire: one smooth beta reader. When correcting Fritz' French, he tells him it's far better than his, Voltaire's Latin, it's totally amazing, but just as he himself has to be corrected, there's just this tiny thing here and this little comma there, etc.
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-28 12:36 pm (UTC)Once again,
mutual admiration society indeed. They lay it on so thick with "you're the greatest!" "no, you're the greatest!" that one is relieved when they talk about subjects other than themselves
I had browsed through just enough of the earliest letters to get this impression, yes. Had not gotten as far as the Peter I stuff, neat!
one almost doesn't notice the one thing he pointedly does not do: issue a double invitation... Once he becomes King, it's mask off in that regard
Yep, and yep. That fits what I had picked up on from quotations: she was lucky to have him, didn't deserve him, etc. Friiiitz! (I was going to say something about misogyny here, but...one wonders if romantic jealousy is also a factor.)
How can someone be a progressive spirit and yet such a petty tyrant at the same time!
You sweet summer child.
one assumes the Anti-Machiavel wasn't entirely out of calculation
One does, unless one is 15-yo me, or the author of Passionate Minds. Voltaire certainly said he believed it was genuine. 36-yo me buys it.
You're probably familiar with the passage where he praises Algarotti?
I probably am, but it's not coming to mind just now, and our gracious hostess (who runs our salon) certainly isn't, so...help us out?
Voltaire: one smooth beta reader.
I see how he gets hired! Catt also had this skill, per his memoirs.
Thank you once again for your lovely and informative write-ups of books we cannot (easily) read!
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-28 01:27 pm (UTC)Young Algarotti, whom you know, has endeared himself to me above and beyond. He has promised me to return as soon as possible. We talked a lot about you, about geometry, poetry, all the sciences, also about God and the world. He's fiery, vivacious and sensitive, and nothing could please me more. He's written a cantata which we have set to music at once, and he was very satisfied by the result. We took leave of each other with the greatest regret, and I fear I won't meet another man as amiable in this country for a long, long while.
(This apropos of Algarotti leaving for the first time, since Fritz is still crown prince and not yet able to offer state pensions.)
I was going to say something about misogyny here, but...one wonders if romantic jealousy is also a factor.
One can stop wondering. He admits it in a letter from June 1740 where he goes from prose into poetry and back, which after "come to meeeeee!" goes
When Orpheus saw Eurydice in the underworld/he can't have felt more joy/than our happy first encounter will make me feel/but I fear Pluto less than Émilie/Her charms have chained up your life for all time/Love has more power over your heart/than the Styx could have about Eurydice/and the way back to the light.
My apologies to Madame du Chatelet; it is permitted that I envy her one of her possessions which I would gladly exchange with the many which now have become mine.
Do I have to explain Orpheus & Eurydice, or for that matter Socrates & Alcibiades? (Not asking rethorically. I didn't know about the reference below, either.)
Émilie: would she have traded Voltaire for Prussia, one wonders? :)
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-28 01:42 pm (UTC)AU where they elope to London or Lappland! Bonus points if they go to Lappland with Maupertuis and Algarotti. (Voltaire said he would go if he'd been invited, if it weren't so cold. And we know Fritz would go if Voltaire wanted to elope, so...AU!) Émilie can come too, and we can have love...polygons.
[ETA: We could have a love chain-link with Maupertuis - Émilie - Voltaire - Fritz - Algarotti (and Lady Mary could show her dedication by stalking Algarotti to the Arctic!).]
Do I have to explain Orpheus & Eurydice, or for that matter Socrates & Alcibiades?
Not to me: I made it as far as lecturer (one step below professor) in the Classics department at my university before leaving academia. And charismatic bastard Alcibiades is a particular favorite of mine. (I like Fritz; this was predictable, no? :P)
Didn't Voltaire write some verse comparing Algarotti to Alcibiades too?
Émilie: would she have traded Voltaire for Prussia, one wonders? :)
Good question! Who was it, though, who when Fritz asked him what he would do with if he were King of Prussia, said he would sell it and buy a nice estate in France? I know I've seen that anecdote, but I can't remember who it was, and I'm on my way to bed now. Will look it up when I'm back if you don't know it off the top of your head. [ETA: the Marquis d'Argens!]
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 01:17 pm (UTC)Best Artic expedition ever!
Fritz: Bombarding someone with letters and invitations, stalking them, when they're clearly more interested in other people - how pathetic is that?
Émilie *pointedly*: I dare say.
Didn't Voltaire write some verse comparing Algarotti to Alcibiades too?
He may have done, but if so, I haven't come across it. The only one writing poetry about Algarotti in this correspondance so far is Fritz. Also, re: the Alcibiades comparison, since as far as my dim Plato memories tell me, the most famous Alcibiades/Socrates scene is of Alcibiades confessing he managed not to seduce Socrates despite trying really hard, I wonder whether Voltaire was trying to tell young crown prince Fritz something?
Have now posted my write-up on the next bunch of letters below.
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 02:12 pm (UTC)Didn't Voltaire write some verse comparing Algarotti to Alcibiades too?
Found it. I misremembered: Algarotti is Socrates, and his boytoy is Alcibiades. Voltaire to Fritz, Dec 15, 1740. Emphasis mine.
Mais quand, chez le gros Valori,
Je vois le tendre Algarotti
Presser d'une vive embrassade
Le beau Lugeac, son jeune ami,
Je crois voir Socrate affermi
Sur la croupe d'Alcibiade;
Non pas ce Socrate entêté,
De sophismes faisant parade,
A l'œil sombre, au nez épaté,
A front large, à mine enfumée;
Mais Socrate vénitien,
Aux grands yeux, au nez aquilin.
since as far as my dim Plato memories tell me, the most famous Alcibiades/Socrates scene is of Alcibiades confessing he managed not to seduce Socrates despite trying really hard, I wonder whether Voltaire was trying to tell young crown prince Fritz something?
True, buuut, that's Plato. And both these guys read Plutarch extensively, and Plutarch has Alcibiades scoring. Or at least, treats Socrates as special among the lovers ("erastai") in the way he and Alcibiades treated each other, but certainly as one of Alcibiades' many erastai. Furthermore, the First Alcibiades (I'm not as familiar with the second off the top of my head) of Plato1, while it of course talks about the superiority of loving someone's soul over loving his body, definitely uses "eros" and terms from the same root to describe Socrates' love for Alcibiades. Finally, the poem I quoted above implies that Voltaire definitely thought of Socrates and Alcibiades as lovers in the most physical sense possible.
So I'm gonna go with, Voltaire wants to influence Fritz the same way Socrates wanted to influence Alcibiades2, and is well aware of the erotic aspects of that relationship.
Open question: Fritz doesn't invade Silesia, doesn't let Voltaire down.
Does Voltaire elope with him to LapplandIs Voltaire more open to the one homoromantic and possibly homosexual relationship of his life? Fritz's low sex drive here is probably going to come in handy.1 Not always attributed to Plato today, but definitely attributed to him in Voltaire's day.
2 And wow, Voltaire must have really believed Fritz didn't have the bad qualities, because omg, you know how that worked out for Socrates, Voltaire? HE DIED.
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 03:12 pm (UTC)In all fairness, I should add that the whole Socrates issue came up through a misunderstanding:
Fritz: sends Socrates bust.
Voltaire: Émilie tells me you'e sent us your portrait. How nice of you!
Fritz: That's not me, that's supposed to be Socrates! Because you're totally him!
Voltaire: If I'm Socrates, you're certainly my Alcibiades, minus the bad parts.
Open question: Fritz doesn't invade Silesia, doesn't let Voltaire down.
Does Voltaire elope with him to LapplandIs Voltaire more open to the one homoromantic and possibly homosexual relationship of his life?Two problems there:
a) as long as Émilie lives, I doubt Voltaire would be up for anything that would not include her in his life, in whatever fashion. Would Fritz be able to cope with being part of a menage á however many? Given that all his successful long term relationships have included him as the central focus of the other party, I rather doubt it.
b) Once Émilie is dead, well, we've seen what happens in rl. And Voltaire was certainly willing to focus primarily on Fritz there; it was all the business shadiness and fighting with rivals
for Fritz' attentionthat doomed them, and I'm not sure that would not have happened in a scenario where Voltaire added some petting and kissing or however much or little sex Fritz wanted to the package.Incidentally, in terms of trading Prussia for Voltaire: the downside there for Émilie would certainly be that if she ruled Prussia, she'd have not nearly enough time for scientific endeavours, though she'd have enough money!
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-30 01:59 am (UTC)I, what? I know Fritz isn't good looking by anyone's standards, and I know Émilie has no idea what he looks like (this is why monarchs need their "hot or not" reports!), but unless there's a portrait type of Socrates out there I don't know about, he's conventionally depicted as decades older than Fritz is at this point. Like possibly 2x-3x as old.
Voltaire: If I'm Socrates, you're certainly my Alcibiades, minus the bad parts.
Well, it's definitely what he went into this relationship wanting.
Two problems there:
I know, I know. :P But a Fritz who doesn't invade Silesia or otherwise do tyrannical things is a much more chill Fritz, so...And a Fritz that's getting some action with Voltaire is possibly a MUCH MORE chill Fritz, lol. It's like Heinrich and FS's plan to marry off ViennaJoe to get Fritz to chill out a bit, it doesn't have to make sense. :P
Incidentally, in terms of trading Prussia for Voltaire: the downside there for Émilie would certainly be that if she ruled Prussia, she'd have not nearly enough time for scientific endeavours, though she'd have enough money!
I had exactly this thought! On the other hand, if you're not a pathological control freak, you *can* delegate stuff. (MT didn't have much of a choice if she wanted to hang on to her empire in the face of everyone trying to carve it up, but we're positing a world where everyone just accepts that Fritz traded Prussia for Voltaire to some Frenchwoman, so...obviously not our world.)
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-30 02:14 pm (UTC)I... what would chill Fritz even look like? Grumpy and Type A but less likely to invade people and more micromanaging of his music projects??
So I've just dipped my toes in this second Emilie biography by Judith Zinsser (as most of my reading energy has been going to Yuletide) (and it doesn't seem to have any fencing?? WTF Zinsser??) but this biography appears to assert that she did all the management things expected of her as a wife/mother in addition to all her science -- no idea yet if this is backed up or if it's projection by the author. (Here's a review in the NYT.) Ruling Prussia, particularly if you didn't wish to go to war with everyone, might not be too bad, especially, as you say, if you could delegate :D
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-30 02:36 pm (UTC)So I also saw that she did the wife/mother thing, but my book said there was relatively little for her *to* do as mother, since she was nobility and therefore supposed to leave the day-to-day of child-raising to the kids. Household management is another matter, and my book said she did it, but was starting to go stir-crazy after marriage, because it wasn't stimulating enough. And then she started to get back into science, met Voltaire, and *really* got into science and philosophy. So she must have been good at delegating, and would have done an A+ job of no Prussian expansionism, lots of optics and astronomy.
Also, you can say that she would have had less time as Prussian monarch, but as Voltaire's partner, she had to help him with his projects during the day and work on her own while she pretended to be asleep to avoid hurting his ego, and not do experimental science but limit herself to theoretical for her Academy competition submission. So honestly, the trade-offs might have worked in her favor.
I... what would chill Fritz even look like?
This is an excellent and unanswerable question. It is difficult to imagine, and I expect it depends a lot on why he's more chill. It was a bit of an idle question as posed, and would require a lot of work to develop as a proper AU. As it is, I just think we should have a crack AU where Émilie runs Prussia and Fritz and Voltaire elope. :P
ETA: Oh, and the fencing seems to have been a one-time episode (though obviously she must have practiced a lot in her youth), so I can see leaving it out, depending on your focus. Looking forward to the rest of your book report!
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 04:02 pm (UTC)(Also thank you for the Socrates thing -- I knew he was convicted and executed blah blah hemlock, but not about the details.)
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-30 02:01 am (UTC)There are a *lot* more details than that, and someday I would love to tag-team teaching Classics with
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-30 02:15 pm (UTC)Someday when you guys get bored with Fritz (HAHAHAHA) I'll ask for Classics education :D
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-30 02:39 pm (UTC)Yeah, I'm not ready yet. I'm not even ready to start on the Stuarts yet!
(The real answer is probably that in a month or two, I give up on medical treatment and go back to work, and then I stop having so much free time and our gossipy sensationalism with scholarly offshoots tapers off, but for now, this is my full-time job, so enjoy. :D)
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-31 03:51 am (UTC)I hope this keeps going at a slower pace, this is so great <3 (but if it doesn't, I mean, I don't have much free time either so I can't really expect anyone else to :) )
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 03:03 am (UTC)In general (as well as here in particular) you shouldn't have to explain Greek mythology to me, as I was obsessed with it as a kid. Other classics references I may or may not get, depending (odds are I won't get them). Socrates & Alcibiades I did vaguely know from osmosis :) -- although not much, so if
Alcibiades
Date: 2019-12-29 03:21 am (UTC)This one, which is taken from the Wayback Machine (I think because the author has converted the write-ups into a book) has some historical inaccuracies but is good enough, and will give you an idea of the crackfic-iness. At some point, I may go through and make corrections, if
"Alcibiades was the biggest jerk to ever live in the Classical Age. Born near Athens, Greece, Alcibiades earned a reputation growing up as one of the most attractive men ever in history. I mean, you know that when the local histories from your era make extra-special sure that they mention how hot you are there's got to be something to it. As a result, naturally, Alcibiades was getting laid more than Wilt Chamberlain in a New Jersey bordello. Chicks (and dudes) pretty much threw themselves at him every time he walked out the front door of his super-fly bachelor swinger's pad, and he even hooked up with the legendary Greek philosopher Socrates; an achievement that even the most archconservative gay-bashing bible thumper has to concede is pretty damn impressive. Before Socrates swigged that shot of hemlock, he actually wrote a couple works about how freaking hot Alcibiades was, calling him pretty much the most attractive man ever to live in all of history. Alcibiades made sure to dress the part of an eccentric millionaire superstar as well: His golden shield was studded with diamonds and jewels, and was pretty much the Ancient Greek equivalent of Lil Jon's Pimp Chalice. He was pimpin' before it was pimpin'.
"Alcibiades was pretty handy in battle, proving himself so well at the Battle of Delium in 424 BCE that the Athenian Commander give his daughter to Alcibiades in marriage. Alcibiades lived with her until she died from cancer or something and then he continued to go about his wild ways of hooking it up with Republic courtesans and such.
"When the Peloponnesian War broke out between Athens and Sparta Alcibiades was appointed commander of the Athenian Naval Forces. He was so pumped up about being in charge of this campaign that the night before he was going to ship out he got totally wasted and ran around downtown Athens screaming and pulling the schlongs off of every statue in the town square. [Note from Mildred: I'm generally not correcting the inaccuracies, but I just want to say that, although the Athenians totally thought he did it, modern historians think he was framed.] When the Athenian government woke up the next morning and found a pantheon of dong-less gods lining the streets, they issued an arrest warrant for Alcibiades and stripped him of his command.
"Alcibiades didn't give a crap though. He ditched the Athenian Army and went over to Sparta, where he helped the Spartan king fortify the town of Decelea since he knew there would be an Athenian attack there. The King of Sparta did this and the Spartans won a tremendous victory over the Athenians. Alcibiades was livin' large until the King found out that his daughter had been impregnated out of wedlock by his newest General. Oops.
"The Spartan King flipped out and Alcibiades had the good sense to get the piss out of Dodge before he had his balls chopped off, so he fled to Persia. Alcibiades lived in Persia for a while and befriended the Sultan, but eventually defected back to Athens where he was received as a hero. He fought with the Athenians as a lesser military officer until their final defeat at Aegospotami in 405 BCE, when he then fled back to Persia.
"Alcibiades tried to rally the Persians to attack the Spartans, but by this point everyone had put up with enough of his crap. A bunch of Spartans convinced the Persian Sultan that Alcibiades would hump his daughter when he wasn't looking (which he would have), so Artaxerxes sent a bunch of Persian warriors to attack Alcibiades while he was in the shower. They set his house on fire while he was bathing, but he didn't even give a crap. He grabbed his dagger and ran outside buck naked trying to stab anyone that came near him. Eventually he was killed after he got nailed by fifteen arrows.
"Alcibiades was a badass because he was such a total douchebag to everyone that supported him. He was a fierce warrior and also one of the most attractive men of his era... not something that can be said about a whole lot of people. He played the political games perfectly, led his forces to military victory and spent the better part of his life getting busy with anyone that would let him. In the end, that's pretty badass."
There's also this video, which is probably best watched after reading the above write-up. (It's also 17 minutes long, FYI.)
(There's also a whole bunch more stuff I could add on Alcibiades and Socrates, again if selenak doesn't beat me to it.)
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 02:30 am (UTC)Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 01:55 am (UTC)Ohhhh. Wow. (And indeed this is the sort of thing I would not notice.) "As for the divine Emilie, for all her divinity she is no more than the arm decoration of the Newtonian Apollo" whom he'd like to meet alone. FRITZ!
"okay, that's changed my image of Peter totally, but I'm still stumped, how can a man be a great reformer dragging his people forward into the modern age while at the same time being responsible for the deaths of so many of them? How can someone be a progressive spirit and yet such a petty tyrant at the same time!"
AHAHAHHAHA
Voltaire: one smooth beta reader.
Hee! (I do like when a beta reader points out the good parts as well as the flaws, I must admit.)