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cahnFrederician fandom is the best! 3 stories in main archive and 2 stories in Madness, eeeeeeee and I have only managed to read my own gifts so far (well, I guess Madness isn't open yet either, but even if it had been I wouldn't have managed to have read them) but they are so goooooood
Also, I would like to apologize on behalf of the fandom that none of us apparently managed any Fritz/Voltaire. Some of us, uh, didn't know enough about Voltaire, and we are Taking Steps to attempt to rectify this in the future if anyone requests it, say, next year. Just saying.
I'm making this post because the last one has an insane number of comments, but I still owe SO many comments on the last post and I kiiiinda would like to read and comment on Yuletide stories for the next week as time permits so I almost hope this post doesn't get much action and then we resume in the new year? (Especially since there is a limited amount of discussion we can do on the fics right now!) :D I was thinking of making another post anyway for reveals.
(*) My husband D came up with this :P :)
Also, I would like to apologize on behalf of the fandom that none of us apparently managed any Fritz/Voltaire. Some of us, uh, didn't know enough about Voltaire, and we are Taking Steps to attempt to rectify this in the future if anyone requests it, say, next year. Just saying.
I'm making this post because the last one has an insane number of comments, but I still owe SO many comments on the last post and I kiiiinda would like to read and comment on Yuletide stories for the next week as time permits so I almost hope this post doesn't get much action and then we resume in the new year? (Especially since there is a limited amount of discussion we can do on the fics right now!) :D I was thinking of making another post anyway for reveals.
(*) My husband D came up with this :P :)
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-28 01:42 pm (UTC)AU where they elope to London or Lappland! Bonus points if they go to Lappland with Maupertuis and Algarotti. (Voltaire said he would go if he'd been invited, if it weren't so cold. And we know Fritz would go if Voltaire wanted to elope, so...AU!) Émilie can come too, and we can have love...polygons.
[ETA: We could have a love chain-link with Maupertuis - Émilie - Voltaire - Fritz - Algarotti (and Lady Mary could show her dedication by stalking Algarotti to the Arctic!).]
Do I have to explain Orpheus & Eurydice, or for that matter Socrates & Alcibiades?
Not to me: I made it as far as lecturer (one step below professor) in the Classics department at my university before leaving academia. And charismatic bastard Alcibiades is a particular favorite of mine. (I like Fritz; this was predictable, no? :P)
Didn't Voltaire write some verse comparing Algarotti to Alcibiades too?
Émilie: would she have traded Voltaire for Prussia, one wonders? :)
Good question! Who was it, though, who when Fritz asked him what he would do with if he were King of Prussia, said he would sell it and buy a nice estate in France? I know I've seen that anecdote, but I can't remember who it was, and I'm on my way to bed now. Will look it up when I'm back if you don't know it off the top of your head. [ETA: the Marquis d'Argens!]
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 01:17 pm (UTC)Best Artic expedition ever!
Fritz: Bombarding someone with letters and invitations, stalking them, when they're clearly more interested in other people - how pathetic is that?
Émilie *pointedly*: I dare say.
Didn't Voltaire write some verse comparing Algarotti to Alcibiades too?
He may have done, but if so, I haven't come across it. The only one writing poetry about Algarotti in this correspondance so far is Fritz. Also, re: the Alcibiades comparison, since as far as my dim Plato memories tell me, the most famous Alcibiades/Socrates scene is of Alcibiades confessing he managed not to seduce Socrates despite trying really hard, I wonder whether Voltaire was trying to tell young crown prince Fritz something?
Have now posted my write-up on the next bunch of letters below.
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 02:12 pm (UTC)Didn't Voltaire write some verse comparing Algarotti to Alcibiades too?
Found it. I misremembered: Algarotti is Socrates, and his boytoy is Alcibiades. Voltaire to Fritz, Dec 15, 1740. Emphasis mine.
Mais quand, chez le gros Valori,
Je vois le tendre Algarotti
Presser d'une vive embrassade
Le beau Lugeac, son jeune ami,
Je crois voir Socrate affermi
Sur la croupe d'Alcibiade;
Non pas ce Socrate entêté,
De sophismes faisant parade,
A l'œil sombre, au nez épaté,
A front large, à mine enfumée;
Mais Socrate vénitien,
Aux grands yeux, au nez aquilin.
since as far as my dim Plato memories tell me, the most famous Alcibiades/Socrates scene is of Alcibiades confessing he managed not to seduce Socrates despite trying really hard, I wonder whether Voltaire was trying to tell young crown prince Fritz something?
True, buuut, that's Plato. And both these guys read Plutarch extensively, and Plutarch has Alcibiades scoring. Or at least, treats Socrates as special among the lovers ("erastai") in the way he and Alcibiades treated each other, but certainly as one of Alcibiades' many erastai. Furthermore, the First Alcibiades (I'm not as familiar with the second off the top of my head) of Plato1, while it of course talks about the superiority of loving someone's soul over loving his body, definitely uses "eros" and terms from the same root to describe Socrates' love for Alcibiades. Finally, the poem I quoted above implies that Voltaire definitely thought of Socrates and Alcibiades as lovers in the most physical sense possible.
So I'm gonna go with, Voltaire wants to influence Fritz the same way Socrates wanted to influence Alcibiades2, and is well aware of the erotic aspects of that relationship.
Open question: Fritz doesn't invade Silesia, doesn't let Voltaire down.
Does Voltaire elope with him to LapplandIs Voltaire more open to the one homoromantic and possibly homosexual relationship of his life? Fritz's low sex drive here is probably going to come in handy.1 Not always attributed to Plato today, but definitely attributed to him in Voltaire's day.
2 And wow, Voltaire must have really believed Fritz didn't have the bad qualities, because omg, you know how that worked out for Socrates, Voltaire? HE DIED.
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 03:12 pm (UTC)In all fairness, I should add that the whole Socrates issue came up through a misunderstanding:
Fritz: sends Socrates bust.
Voltaire: Émilie tells me you'e sent us your portrait. How nice of you!
Fritz: That's not me, that's supposed to be Socrates! Because you're totally him!
Voltaire: If I'm Socrates, you're certainly my Alcibiades, minus the bad parts.
Open question: Fritz doesn't invade Silesia, doesn't let Voltaire down.
Does Voltaire elope with him to LapplandIs Voltaire more open to the one homoromantic and possibly homosexual relationship of his life?Two problems there:
a) as long as Émilie lives, I doubt Voltaire would be up for anything that would not include her in his life, in whatever fashion. Would Fritz be able to cope with being part of a menage á however many? Given that all his successful long term relationships have included him as the central focus of the other party, I rather doubt it.
b) Once Émilie is dead, well, we've seen what happens in rl. And Voltaire was certainly willing to focus primarily on Fritz there; it was all the business shadiness and fighting with rivals
for Fritz' attentionthat doomed them, and I'm not sure that would not have happened in a scenario where Voltaire added some petting and kissing or however much or little sex Fritz wanted to the package.Incidentally, in terms of trading Prussia for Voltaire: the downside there for Émilie would certainly be that if she ruled Prussia, she'd have not nearly enough time for scientific endeavours, though she'd have enough money!
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-30 01:59 am (UTC)I, what? I know Fritz isn't good looking by anyone's standards, and I know Émilie has no idea what he looks like (this is why monarchs need their "hot or not" reports!), but unless there's a portrait type of Socrates out there I don't know about, he's conventionally depicted as decades older than Fritz is at this point. Like possibly 2x-3x as old.
Voltaire: If I'm Socrates, you're certainly my Alcibiades, minus the bad parts.
Well, it's definitely what he went into this relationship wanting.
Two problems there:
I know, I know. :P But a Fritz who doesn't invade Silesia or otherwise do tyrannical things is a much more chill Fritz, so...And a Fritz that's getting some action with Voltaire is possibly a MUCH MORE chill Fritz, lol. It's like Heinrich and FS's plan to marry off ViennaJoe to get Fritz to chill out a bit, it doesn't have to make sense. :P
Incidentally, in terms of trading Prussia for Voltaire: the downside there for Émilie would certainly be that if she ruled Prussia, she'd have not nearly enough time for scientific endeavours, though she'd have enough money!
I had exactly this thought! On the other hand, if you're not a pathological control freak, you *can* delegate stuff. (MT didn't have much of a choice if she wanted to hang on to her empire in the face of everyone trying to carve it up, but we're positing a world where everyone just accepts that Fritz traded Prussia for Voltaire to some Frenchwoman, so...obviously not our world.)
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-30 02:14 pm (UTC)I... what would chill Fritz even look like? Grumpy and Type A but less likely to invade people and more micromanaging of his music projects??
So I've just dipped my toes in this second Emilie biography by Judith Zinsser (as most of my reading energy has been going to Yuletide) (and it doesn't seem to have any fencing?? WTF Zinsser??) but this biography appears to assert that she did all the management things expected of her as a wife/mother in addition to all her science -- no idea yet if this is backed up or if it's projection by the author. (Here's a review in the NYT.) Ruling Prussia, particularly if you didn't wish to go to war with everyone, might not be too bad, especially, as you say, if you could delegate :D
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-30 02:36 pm (UTC)So I also saw that she did the wife/mother thing, but my book said there was relatively little for her *to* do as mother, since she was nobility and therefore supposed to leave the day-to-day of child-raising to the kids. Household management is another matter, and my book said she did it, but was starting to go stir-crazy after marriage, because it wasn't stimulating enough. And then she started to get back into science, met Voltaire, and *really* got into science and philosophy. So she must have been good at delegating, and would have done an A+ job of no Prussian expansionism, lots of optics and astronomy.
Also, you can say that she would have had less time as Prussian monarch, but as Voltaire's partner, she had to help him with his projects during the day and work on her own while she pretended to be asleep to avoid hurting his ego, and not do experimental science but limit herself to theoretical for her Academy competition submission. So honestly, the trade-offs might have worked in her favor.
I... what would chill Fritz even look like?
This is an excellent and unanswerable question. It is difficult to imagine, and I expect it depends a lot on why he's more chill. It was a bit of an idle question as posed, and would require a lot of work to develop as a proper AU. As it is, I just think we should have a crack AU where Émilie runs Prussia and Fritz and Voltaire elope. :P
ETA: Oh, and the fencing seems to have been a one-time episode (though obviously she must have practiced a lot in her youth), so I can see leaving it out, depending on your focus. Looking forward to the rest of your book report!
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-29 04:02 pm (UTC)(Also thank you for the Socrates thing -- I knew he was convicted and executed blah blah hemlock, but not about the details.)
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-30 02:01 am (UTC)There are a *lot* more details than that, and someday I would love to tag-team teaching Classics with
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-30 02:15 pm (UTC)Someday when you guys get bored with Fritz (HAHAHAHA) I'll ask for Classics education :D
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-30 02:39 pm (UTC)Yeah, I'm not ready yet. I'm not even ready to start on the Stuarts yet!
(The real answer is probably that in a month or two, I give up on medical treatment and go back to work, and then I stop having so much free time and our gossipy sensationalism with scholarly offshoots tapers off, but for now, this is my full-time job, so enjoy. :D)
Re: Voltaire
Date: 2019-12-31 03:51 am (UTC)I hope this keeps going at a slower pace, this is so great <3 (but if it doesn't, I mean, I don't have much free time either so I can't really expect anyone else to :) )