As a refresher, Peter's son Karl was recalled from his position as envoy to the court of Turin after fighting a duel and lightly wounding Chevalier Fresia, an officer at court. Karl's uncle Hertzberg wrote, "I have represented the matter to the king in a report from the Ministry in such a fashion that he had to recall him, but that he has not given evidence of greater displeasure than the fault that our young people have of follies and crazy heads."
Trier confirms this by including Fritz's reply: "It's necessary to recall him. These are the follies and the crazy heads that all your young people [have]."
Then Karl got back and wrote to Fritz that honor required him to do what he did, even though it was incompatible with his position as envoy.
Karl also said that he did a complete write-up of the affair in a report he made to the Ministry, but I haven't been able to find it.
If I make it to Berlin next year, I'll visit the archives in person and see if it turns up, but since it's not in the place it should be (Karl's reports to the ministry), I'm betting it was disappeared by Hertzberg as not being to Karl's advantage.
So then I tried finding an Italian version of events, but the Turin government website, with the state archives and library, has been down for months and months, it's very frustrating. I can't even get started on a quest to figure out where it might be.
Tried looking for 18th century newspapers in Turin, no luck.
Then it occurred to me: if I have learned *one* thing from the last 6 years in salon, it is that what is a gold mine? Envoy reports are a gold mine! They may not be accurate, but they contain all the gossip. And surely *some* envoy at Turin wrote down the gossip about this duel!
So, which archive to consult? Not my go-to, the Prussian state archives, already checked there and I can't find it. Plus, while I'd love to have Karl's biased-in-his-favor report, I'd like to have a counterpoint from a different perspective.
Not the French, because the French archive charges 25 euros per page to scan. (I emailed them and they confirmed. How anyone gets research done is a mystery; it's legit cheaper to go to Paris.) Of course, if I make it to Paris next year, this will be high on the list of things I look for! But for now, no.
And Turin is a small enough state that I'm not sure if all the smaller German principalities (like Brunswick or whatever) would have an envoy there. Austria, maybe, but I would need to figure out how their archives work.
But then I remembered that Great Britain would definitely have had an envoy at Turin in this period (which they didn't before War of the Spanish Succession), and I've been placing several orders with the British national archives!
So I tracked down who was British envoy to Turin in 1778, and ordered scans of his reports from January and February.
This morning, I received a batch of scans that included the following two gloriously dramatic accounts.
January 28, 1778
Sir,
I have the honor to acquaint you that the Baron Keith, envoy from the King of Prussia to his Sardinian Majesty has been forbid the court, & is preparing to leave this capital. These steps have been taken in consequence of a very extraordinary event, which has lately taken place & in which this unhappy gentleman has behaved in so very strange a manner, that the disorders he has been guilty of, and the outrages he has committed, admit of no palliation, but such as may be drawn for the supposition that he is, or was at least for the moment, actually deprived of his senses. I shall take the liberty of giving you a short but authentick account of the whole affair.
Mons. Keith was last Friday evening at the assembly of Madame la Marquise d'Aglie, where were present the lady of the house, the Comte de St. Paul, a gentleman of this country, the Chevalier Rinco, one of the equerries of the Princess of Piemont, the Marquis Caluzzo, son to the Sardinian ambassador at the court of Madrid, and the Chevalier Fresia, a captain of the queen's regiment of dragoons, and a younger brother of a very good family of the same name. The company being seated in a circle, the conversation for some time was general, but soon fell upon chemistry, and was more particularly taken up by the Prussian minister & the Chevalier Fresia. The former having advanced some propositions relative to the qualities and properties of fixed air, which the latter did not seem entirely to assent to, a difference of opinion arose between them, but without any apparent warmth or animosity on either side, on the contrary Mons. Keith with seeming politeness told him if he would come any day to his house, he would show him some experiments which would convince him of the reality of what had been advanced. This was accepted by the Chevalier, and the greatest politeness observed on both sides. The arrival of a visitor put an end to the conversation. The gentlemen arose and stood round the fire.
After the space of a few minutes, Mons. Keith took hold of the Chevalier Fresia by the arm, and told him he had something to say to him in the next room. This, tho remarked by the company, did not produce the least apprehension of the extraordinary scene which was soon followed, as it was observed that when they were at the door, the usual compliments were made of who should go out first. When they were in the antichamber, Mr. Keith shut the door, and addressed himself to Mr. Fresia in the most indecent terms and at the same time struck him a violent blow on one side of the head and immediately drew his sword. The Chevalier was staggered with the blow, he endeavoured to recover himself, but suddenly turning round his foot, slipped, & he fell to the ground & could never raise himself sufficiently to put himself in a posture of defence or indeed draw his sword out of the scabbard. The Prussian envoy attacked him with fury, but fortunately, such was his rage and passion, that of above fifty thrusts which he made at him, none took place, except a few slight scratches, which the Chevalier received on the hand with which he parried the strokes, & one in the thigh, which might have been of consequence, had not it luckily struck against a bunch of keys in his pocket which entirely destroyed its effect.
The noise they made soon brought out the other gentlemen, who interfered and put an end to this unequal conflict. The Marquis d'Aglie came out of an adjoining cabinet, and said to him, "Mon Dieu, Monsieur Keith, what are you doing?" He answered, "Monsieur, I beg your pardon for what has just happened in your house, but I could not do otherwise, because this man spoke to me," & having said this he left the house.
[The dialogue is all in French: "Mon Dieu, Monsieur Keith, que faites-vous?" and "Monsieur, je vous demande pardon de ce qui vient de passer dans votre maison, mais je ne pouvois pas faire autrement, car cet homme m'a parlé."]
I will now do myself the honor to communicate to you the steps which this government has since taken. The Comte Rebuf, Major de la Place & acting officer under the governor of this town, was privately sent to him to talk to him about it. The Prussian minister at first spoke of it as a rencontre, which might very soon be settled between him and the Chevalier Fresia, but upon being told that it was not looked upon in that light, & that his character of foreign minister would debar him from adopting any proceedings of that kind, he said "What do you want? It's a delirium, a fit of madness, it's not the first time." ["Que voulez vous? C'est un délire, un accès de folie, ce n'est pas pour la première fois."]
His Sardinian Majesty was immediately informed of this affair, and that very night or the next morning Ct. Perron by order of the King of Sardinia wrote to Mr. Keith to the following purports: that has he had been guilty of an excess, the reasons for which did not yet sufficiently appear, it was thought proper to forbid him to appear at court till further notice, that notwithstanding what had passed, his person should be respected and left at liberty; that if he choose to stay quietly at home, their government would effectually secure him from any personal accidents or insults, but that if he went out, it would in no wise be responsible for what might happen to him; at the same time he was given to understand that if he proceeded to make any further attacks upon the lives or honor of any of the subjects of these dominions, His Sardinian Majesty would be obliged to look upon them in their proper light and act accordingly.
This message was officially communicated to the corps diplomatique at this court, and they were asked, whether it contained anything contrary to their privileges, or whether they had any objections to alledge against it? They unanimously answered in the negative. A regular proces verbal has been made of the whole and sent off by an express to Berlin, before he was dispatched Count Perron sent word to Monsieur Keith that a messenger would soon set out for that place, & that he had orders to take care and deliver any packet which he might want to send upon this occasion. The Prussian Minister thanked him for, but declined the offer, and in a private note which he sent at the same time, intreated him to employ his good offices, that the court of Turin might not demand any satisfaction eclatante of the King his Master. This I understand will be complied with.
Since that he has returned a written answer to the message I have related to the following purports: that has the intimation he had received from the King of Sardinia through the channel of the Secretary of State's office for foreign affairs, had put it out of his power to discharge one of his principal duties as foreign minister, which was to pay his personal court to the sovereign of the country where he resided, his longer stay here was become unnecessary; he therefore gave notice, that unless he should, contrary to his expectations, meet with any impediment, he was preparing for his departure, & should set out as soon as his affairs would permit him; it is not known where he will retire to, or whether he will quit these dominions, or wait somewhere in the neighbourhood, 'till he receives the orders of his Prussian Majesty.
This Sir is the precis of the very extraordinary affair. I have not entered much into particulars, because Ct. Perron has told me the whole account will be sent to the Marquis de Cordon, who will be instructed to communicate it to Lord Weymouth.
Wm. Deane Poyntz
February 18, 1778
Sir,
As a supplement to the letter which I did myself the honor of writing to you a few posts ago about the Prussian minister at this court, I will now take the liberty of informing you that the courier, who was dispatched to Berlin upon that occasion, returned to this place on Sunday last. His Prussian Majesty in his answer expresses his surprise at and utter disapprobation of the very extraordinary behaviour of his minister, and attributes it entirely to the state of insanity, of which it now appears that gentleman had given many proofs in the younger part of his life; that he could not but be much displeased with his family, who had hitherto concealed this circumstance from him, and suffered their relation to undertake a commission, for which they knew he was so improperly qualified. That he would endeavour to atone for the involuntary error into which he had been led by recalling the Baron Keith immediately, but that as he had had such bad success in the choice of his first minister, he had ever sent to this court, he would wait a short time before he replaced him, and would do his utmost to pitch upon a proper person, whose behaviour should make ample amends for the rash and unguarded conduct of his predecessor. His Prussian Majesty acknowledges himself highly sensible of the moderation of the court of Turin, and is particularly pleased with the attention & politeness with which this government treated Monsieur Keith, considered as his minister. This latter left this place about ten days ago,and was met by the Sardinian courier at Verona, who delivered to him his letters of recall.
The Chevalier Fresia had been under arrest ever since the affair happened, but was immediately set at liberty upon the receipt of the answer of his Prussian Majesty.
Wm. Deane Poyntz
Okay, this is *completely* not how our previous accounts had led us to perceive the matter! Instead of Karl saying, "Honor required me to act as I did," he's saying, "Temporary insanity, what are you going to do?" and instead of Fritz going, "Those young hotheads of today," he's going, "The family deceived me! This guy suffers from regular fits of temporary insanity!"
So. Poyntz. He was not an eyewitness, he could as be poorly informed as Dickens, Lovenorn, Johnn, and Stratemann in Berlin in 1730. However, he seems to have two separate data points: one about the duel shortly after it happened, and one about Fritz's reply, and the two accounts seem compatible with each other on the most major point.
Karl: could easily be lying to Fritz to try to keep his job.
Fritz: could also be lying! He could be just passing the buck onto the family in a "Not all Prussians!" strategy to keep the Sardinian king from thinking Prussian envoys are just hotheads like this. On the other hand, Fritz could have acquired new information between when he replied to Hertzberg about the young hotheads and when he replied to the king of Sardinia about Karl's congenital insanity.
Either way, this is VERY DRAMATIC and everything I dreamed of, and it's going into the bio of Peter!
Also, when I was looking at the instructions to Karl's successor as envoy to Turin in the Prussian catalogue, I seem to recall that the instructions dated from 1780, two years later. So I'm not surprised to see Fritz saying he's going to wait a little while and take his time choosing his next envoy. Looks like he took 2 years.
I was looking at them, btw, as part of my quest to find more details on the duel: I was hoping they included instructions along the lines of "And remember to make amends for your idiot predecessor" with hopefully some detail on what the idiot predecessor did.
I was unable to order those instructions, but they're on my list to check out if I make it to an archive in Berlin in person. I doubt they'll have any gossip as sensationalist as this, though!
I'm going to try to see if I can find the even fuller account Poyntz talks about, and of course if I make it to Paris, I'll see what I can do about the French envoy's account.
Meanwhile, enjoy the popcorn, and I'm so stoked that I've got more exciting fodder for the bio!!
ETA: I meant to add, one possible way to reconcile the accounts is that after the two men entered the room together, Chevalier Fresia said something that Karl took offense to (and overreacted to), something he could later point to when writing to Fritz about how honor totally required him to do what he did!
Uncle of ETA: Oh, and one of Karl's uncles did say that Karl was unsuited to diplomacy and pointed to the letter-opening incident that I told you about. But nobody talked about insanity in all the many letters I've read! Which, of course could easily be covered up by the family as long as possible, even when writing amongst themselves. Especially with letters prone to being opened.
Oh, and speaking of Knyphausen family letters, I have a lot more interesting Knyphausen family gossip to share from another batch of letters I got a few weeks ago, but since I'm short on time, I'm thinking of just letting you read about it in the Peter bio. I'm hoping to have a draft ready for you two this summer. I finished the second draft about 10 days ago and just want to polish the prose (and incorporate today's duel findings! and maybe do a bit of Schwerin research) before passing it on to you.
I meant to say that the comment title is because I was reading along and got to the part where they were talking about chemistry, and I genuinely thought they were going to fight over scientific theories! A duel for science! Then I got to the next part and realized I didn't know *what* they were dueling (if you can call it that) for.
But if it did happen happen anything like Poyntz describes, it's funny, because I've seen numerous descriptions of Karl as interested in science, including one that said that after he withdrew from society, he spent his last decades living for science and the arts.
Living for science! Assaulting for science!
if he choose to stay quietly at home
Also, at first I thought: this should be easy for him, since he's been staying home by preference since he returned from university in his early 20s!
Then I thought about his near total withdrawal from society, sometimes even refusing to see family and only agreeing to see his paintings and some painters he had over...if there *was* an element of fits of temporary insanity (whether poor anger management or some more neurological disorder), and I'm not saying there was, but maybe he was worried about this happening again?
Wow! All glory to the Royal Detective! What a find!
As the duel not being about science, this reminds me, didn't Maupertuis at some point contemplate duelling Voltaire in non-writerly fashion? (I mean, not that Fritz would have allowed that; even at his most pissed off at Voltaire, I don't see him sanctioning anything that was likely to get Voltaire killed, considering the physical state of fitness of either gentleman.)
But back to Karl: mentally ill or misunderstood? Well, if he truly kicked and hit the guy when said guy was already down, then that's definitely not covered by the duel code and one should hope he had temporarily taken leave of his senses. However...
...there are of course Prussian precedents of the highest status. FW certainly qualifies for well testified "poor anger management", to put it mildly, from early childhood onwards. Not helped by very painful physical ailments in later life and him self medicating with a lot of alcohol. Leaving aside SD at one point wanting to have him declared insane when Fritz was 15 or thereabouts in order to have her boy come to power, with or without herself as Regent for a few years, and didn't get far even with the envoys being anti FW - do we think FW was genuinely mentally ill, or was he simply a bad combination of temper plus absolute power with no higher authority checks once his father was dead?
And then there's Our Antihero, who was physically abusive to his servants now and then in his later years, definitely hitting and kicking them in addition to the verbal lashing out which he had already done for decades. Now, both FW and Fritz and of course Karl Keith are living in a society where violence towards servants from a person in a higher position is seen as okay and/or necessariy discipline for those lazy servants, and it's only when the violence is turned against someone of the same social position (or nearly so) that it's commented on and disapproved. (They're also coming from a society where physical violence gainst kids by teachers is expected, even with aristocratic children, in both genders, lest we forget Wilhelmine and her governess. What I'm getting at here is that it's very trickly to establish what qualifies as mentally ill and what as simply being an ill-mannered jerk in such a society.
Of course, Karl becoming so very hermit like does look like he might have considered himself as unsafe in society and that this was his way of dealing with it, certainly a better one for him and others than being locked up. (Though of course we don't know what he was doing to his servants.)
Wow! All glory to the Royal Detective! What a find!
You should have seen me exclaiming out loud yesterday morning as I was reading it! I may be addicted to ordering scans from archives. :D
As the duel not being about science, this reminds me, didn't Maupertuis at some point contemplate duelling Voltaire in non-writerly fashion?
I had forgotten this, but yes, he did!
(I mean, not that Fritz would have allowed that;
I doubt they would have waited for his approval. Dueling had been illegal in France for over a hundred years at that point, so Frenchmen were accustomed to doing their dueling in secret.
FW certainly qualifies for well testified "poor anger management", to put it mildly, from early childhood onwards.
Me when I first read this: You mean the guy whose outbursts have been attributed to porphyria by some scholars? ;)
do we think FW was genuinely mentally ill, or was he simply a bad combination of temper plus absolute power with no higher authority checks once his father was dead?
The problem with the framing of this question is that there's no clear, agreed-upon distinction between "mentally ill" and "personality," nor what constitutes free will. Neuroscientists and philosophers are *still* debating it. I think we can all agree Fritz had PTSD. According to the DSM and whatever the German equivalent is, that means he was mentally ill. Does that mean that he didn't have a bad combination of temper plus absolute power with no higher authority checks once his father was dead? Obviously not. Would he have been less likely to assault his servants without the PTSD? Probably. Do we generally consider that to mean that he had completely taken leave of his senses, in the sense that, for example, we attribute to a psychotic break? We do not.
Very few mental illnesses strip you of free will in the way that epilepsy does. How accountable was FW for his actions? He always seemed to know where he was and what was going on, and to act according to some kind of internally consistent logic. So I would say he had a set of values, and one of his values was that he should be able to enforce his values with his fists and his cane.
Karl: Well, one reading of the evidence we have is that he had some kind of seizure out of the blue that manifested as aggression, similar to Springer Rage in dogs. Another reading is that he was acting according to the dictates of honor, and he believed he was justified in his actions. Maybe he had a really bad temper, and he invoked insanity as a defense to avoid a worse punishment.
Of course, a major possibility is that we're hearing gossip passed on largely by Italians about how an Italian was totally the defenseless and innocent victim of some crazy Prussian. We are *in* Italy, after all, and I bet the game of telephone is dominated by people who would see the Chevalier Fresia as one of them and Karl as an outsider.
Of course, Karl becoming so very hermit like does look like he might have considered himself as unsafe in society and that this was his way of dealing with it, certainly a better one for him and others than being locked up. (Though of course we don't know what he was doing to his servants.)
Entirely possible! Of course, he had hermit-like tendencies as early as 1764, and maybe he was clinically depressed!
I really wish we had his side of the story. But we do have him saying that honor required him to act as he did. Which makes me think he didn't have random attacks of pure psychosis, but overreacted to some provocation.
In any case, after all the bills and invoices and contracts and loans and interest I've had to decipher, this is a breath of fresh air! (And not just because I didn't have to decipher it. ;)
Very few mental illnesses strip you of free will in the way that epilepsy does. How accountable was FW for his actions? He always seemed to know where he was and what was going on, and to act according to some kind of internally consistent logic. So I would say he had a set of values, and one of his values was that he should be able to enforce his values with his fists and his cane.
Mostly yes, with the caveat that there is the occasional "I am a bad man" in conversation with Pastors, meaning not that he didn't feel himself entitled to physical violence as punishment but that he was on some level aware he went above and beyond and that this conflicted with his idea of himself as a good Christian monarch anad father. Also, the fact that on two famous occasions, he could be talked out of the violence - after having applied some of it already to Wilhelmine, granted - (the "don't be a Peter the Great or Philip of Spain!" homecoming scene from August 15th 1730), and if it happened the earlier time where General Mosel stopped him from attacking Fritz with a sword directly which I used as the springboard for my AU Fiat Justitia) - would indicate he had enough self control and self awareness during those rage times to stop IF he wanted to.
(Whereas, say, G3 during his mental breakdowns - both the earlier ones he recovered from and the final one he never did - was not able to stop out of his own free will.)
Of course, a major possibility is that we're hearing gossip passed on largely by Italians about how an Italian was totally the defenseless and innocent victim of some crazy Prussian. We are *in* Italy, after all, and I bet the game of telephone is dominated by people who would see the Chevalier Fresia as one of them and Karl as an outsider.
That is very true, and leaving aside the example of the Guy-Dickens reports of prisoner!Fritz growing a long beard and being chained to the wall when no such thing happened or the "Wilhelmine gets thrown out of a window" story from Voltaire which grew out of FW slapping and dragging her, but certainly not attempting murder, there is another FW era example I can now think of, i.e. the quarrel he had with Denmark where we have the conflicting reports about the abduction and counter abduction/liberation of a tall guy, where the Prussian report has the Prussian recruiters being entirely peaceful and just hanging their wet socks up to dry at the fire in the inn when these violent peasants storm in and beat them up and leave with their voluntarily recruited soldier and the Danish report is full of abusive Prussians and a heroically saved shephard.
Now, here is how fiction ought to present what set Karl off, and why he couldn't get into specifics other than "honor required...":
Turin person: "Say, is it true you got the job just because your father was your King's boytoy for a brief time?"
Also, Selena, thank you for reading us all those envoy reports over the years. If not for you, O Royal Reader, this detective wouldn't have known envoy reports were a gold mine, and then wouldn't have known where to look when I wanted to know more about this duel! (Or at least rumors about it, which is all we have.)
Heh. I am now envisioning Voltaire saying something like, "But of course, Maupertuis, I will duel you... with words!" and challenging him to, idk, publicly make up a sonnet sequence from scratch or something :D
I was reminded of Virchow and Bismarck and was going to link you to the sausage story, but then Wikipedia told me it was apocryphal (well, it was too good to be true):
He was opposed to Bismarck's excessive military budget, which angered Bismarck sufficiently that he challenged Virchow to a duel in 1865. Virchow declined because he considered dueling an uncivilized way to solve a conflict. Various English-language sources purport a different version of events, the so-called "Sausage Duel". It has Virchow, being the one challenged and therefore entitled to choose the weapons, selecting two pork sausages, one loaded with Trichinella larvae, the other safe; Bismarck declined. However, there are no German-language documents confirming this version.
(Though of course we don't know what he was doing to his servants.)
We don't, but while looking for something else, I ran into a document that was easy enough Kurrent to sight-read, and I found a letter from someone complaining that Karl didn't even mention him in his will despite the fact that he served half his life as Karl's chamberlain, then before that worked for one of Karl's uncles as Haus Officiant, and before that, one of Karl's aunts and uncles-in-law, for a total of 50 years in the service of this family. He's now in his 70th year, not fit in age or health for further service, and it was with "shock, horror, and distress" that he learned that Karl's last will didn't mention someone who served him faithfully for over 30 years.
Of course, this is the servant's perspective trying to get money out of the Knyphausen heir, and not necessarily immediately an indictment of Karl, but in an age without much of a safety net, I can understand the shock, horror, and distress. He seems to have a wife and three grown children (it's not clear to me what they're doing for a living), and he doesn't want to become a "source of mockery or a burden" to other people in his old age.
I wish either my deciphering skills were slightly better, or else everyone had handwriting like this guy, because there's got to be tons of interesting tidbits like this out there, if only I could sight-read more of these documents. (I think it might be a generational thing; the early 19th century generation seems to form their letters in a way that I'm not used to, but this 70-year-old guy was trivial to read, as Kurrent goes.)
I meant to say that the comment title is because I was reading along and got to the part where they were talking about chemistry, and I genuinely thought they were going to fight over scientific theories!
HAHAHAHA because this is exactly what I thought for the chemistry part! Until yeah, I was like, "wait, but... they might not be?? What ARE they fighting about??"
if there *was* an element of fits of temporary insanity (whether poor anger management or some more neurological disorder), and I'm not saying there was, but maybe he was worried about this happening again?
HAHAHAHA because this is exactly what I thought for the chemistry part! Until yeah, I was like, "wait, but... they might not be?? What ARE they fighting about??"
Exactly!
When I was brainstorming what I would do if I were writing fiction, it was absolutely going to be a duel over the properties of fixed air! But then Selena had an even better idea. :D
Also, I had to look up what "fixed air" was, and wiktionary tells me it's carbon dioxide.
Wow, this is indeed VERY DRAMATIC! We are indebted to you, O Detective, for providing us with the DRAMA! (Puts the drama in my life in perspective, lol. No one has, to the best of my knowledge, started hitting someone randomly in what their boss describes as a "state of insanity.")
"Monsieur, I beg your pardon for what has just happened in your house, but I could not do otherwise, because this man spoke to me" / ["Monsieur, je vous demande pardon de ce qui vient de passer dans votre maison, mais je ne pouvois pas faire autrement, car cet homme m'a parlé."]
I'm glad you provided the translation, because while it's reasonable enough French that my French is sufficient to be able to translate it, I would have been like, "uhhhh I must be missing someting?" Because this man spoke to me?? Is this an idiom for "insult" that I don't know about?
I meant to add, one possible way to reconcile the accounts is that after the two men entered the room together, Chevalier Fresia said something that Karl took offense to (and overreacted to), something he could later point to when writing to Fritz about how honor totally required him to do what he did!
That's what I had assumed before reading the above, but that just seems weird. It would be interesting to see if anyone knew what Keith said Fresia said, if anything. From Poyntz's account it sounds like everyone thinks it's just bizarre! Which it is!
I'm glad you provided the translation, because while it's reasonable enough French that my French is sufficient to be able to translate it, I would have been like, "uhhhh I must be missing someting?" Because this man spoke to me?? Is this an idiom for "insult" that I don't know about?
Yeah, I had to read it more than once to make sure I wasn't missing something! It does run over the end of a page, and the margin is slightly cut off, so it's possible some very short word is missing? Because I would expect "because of the way this man spoke to me" or "because this man spoke to me evilly" or something.
But I also don't see what could fit into the margin that would make grammatical and semantic sense here. I gave you what I see on the page and did my best to make sense of it!
Also, for what it's worth, the reason I put "[have]" at the end of Fritz's quote is that the French makes even less sense, and must be missing something! So it's also possible Poyntz just made a mistake when switching from the end of one line to the beginning of the next...we saw something like that (or at least that's what I think is going on) in the Fredersdorf letters, where Selena confirmed it makes no sense as stands.
I think sometimes people have memory lapses when they get to the end of a line on a page and have to pause to transition to the beginning of the next line at the far opposite side of the page.
It would be interesting to see if anyone knew what Keith said Fresia said, if anything.
Yeah, I started looking into the Austrian archives today. :P They're quite a bit more expensive than the German ones, but not as bad as the French, so maybe I can make something work out just this once. For such a DRAMATIC cause, you know. ;)
I also started checking out the British archives just now to see if I could find the extra detailed account Poyntz mentions, but of course the online catalogue is down.
Also, I told my wife this story when we chatted today, about how the story going around in Italy has a poor Italian guy lying helpless on the ground while some Prussian madman attacks him for no reason at all, and she was like, "Suuuurrre." She's with me on the possible bias of the account here. ;)
Oh, wow, guys, it looks like there *is* an account in the Prussian archive, and there's a French and Italian source too (the latter being a Turin newspaper). I'm reading a footnote in the 1927 volume of Forschungen zur brandenburgischen und preussischen geschichte (I have found this to be a very valuable journal many times), and the general outline seems to match what we have here: a salon gathering at d'Aglies, and a rather mysterious lead up that doesn't leave the cause of the conflict clear at all. The footnote says there's an eyewitness account!
Damn, I might have a hard time finding it, though, even though the archive number is cited, because the organizational system changed between 1927 and now; old archive citations are useless. But let's see what a detective can do...
Also, the author says he couldn't access the Turin newspaper. I have found it! I have the digitized account in front of me. It's in a mixture of Italian and French, I'm going to translate it!
Purely Google translated, no cleanup, and no commentary because it's my bedtime, but here you go. This is from the Gazzetta Letteraria Torino, 1882. I will look for more sources tomorrow, I have leads! I may also try to clean this translation up, but you should get the gist for now:
Victor Amadeus III was finally given what his father and grandfather had never been allowed by political conditions, both his own and European, to do: to reduce to official diplomatic relations the relations of good friendship that had existed for centuries between the two houses of Savoy and Brandenburg, which until then had never dealt with their mutual interests except indirectly and, I might say, on the sly. Victor Amadeus's sympathies and enthusiastic admiration for the great Frederick of Prussia had been felt since he was still only Duke of Savoy, and they later sometimes exposed him to ridicule, when, having succeeded his father on the throne, at the beginning of 1773, he pushed them too far in his attempt to model himself and his things on the favorite prototypical hero. It is therefore not surprising that, as soon as he was able to dispose of the sum of things, he immediately took up an entrance at the Court of Berlin for regular diplomatic correspondence.
This was, in any case, an act of good politics after the Treaty of Versailles of 1758 had transformed France and Austria, from bitter rivals, which they had always been, into two fervent allies, and, at the same time, also an act of courage and independence, which, in Paris and Vienna, might have been received with some suspicion in a moment of bad humor. And indeed, against such a danger he did not fail to take precautions at the two Courts through his ambassadors resident there: "The King (the minister wrote on the affairs of Count De Viry in Paris) instructs you to confide this to the ministers of His Most Christian Majesty, and to assure them that he has no other object in view in this dispatch of ministers than that of a simple friendly communication between him and His Prussian Majesty, without it ever being able to influence in any way his invariable system of good understanding with the other Courts."
The matter, however, passed without incident; and, on the other hand, the King of Prussia, willingly accepting the proposal made to him, appointed as his first representative in Turin the Baron de Keit, his Chamberlain, who arrived there, leaving in the year 1774, announced there by the Prussian minister with this, in truth, too laconic description: "Il est encore jeune; il a des talents." As to talents, I could not say whether and to what extent he was truly endowed; but since King Frederick chose him to inaugurate that diplomatic correspondence, which he had shown himself to hold in no small regard, the presumption is undoubtedly in his favor. Except that, in a youthful state, he quickly gave evidence that he brought with him not a few of the defects inherent in it, which wasted a great part of the talents he could have had, and were on more than one occasion close to jeopardizing the good relations and mutual dispositions of the two Courts. The most serious of all was the incident, the main subject of this writing, which, in 1778, gave rise to the bizarre, choleric and impetuous character of the Prussian ambassador, and which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry.
Here is how Count Perrone, then Minister of Foreign Affairs, reported the event to Count Scarnafigi, who had been transferred from the embassy in Vienna to that in Paris, on the 24th of 1778:
"Yesterday evening, a rather serious incident occurred at the home of the Marquis d'Agliè, where there was a good company, which resulted from Baron Keith, the envoy special of His Majesty the King of Prussia, who picked a quarrel and struck with his hand and sword the Chevalier Fresia d'Oglianico, captain in the King's Dragoon Regiment, without this officer having given him the slightest reason for doing so either at the very moment it happened or beforehand." The king, informed, the fate of the matter, well knowing that Fresia was not his only fear of bearing him in time for the grave affront, "had the horse put on the spot (continued on the 28th and his companions) Fresia under arrest with a sentry at his door and gave the other arrangements necessary for the safety of Mr. Keith's person, and to prevent the offended or any other person from failing in the consideration due to the character with which this minister is invested. As the Major of the city, who received orders to give these arrangements, found himself in some sort of liaison with Mr. Keith, he was at the same time instructed to inform this minister. I enclose here a copy of this Major's report, by which you will see that Mr. Keith himself attributes his outburst to a moment of delirium, of which he admits to having had other fits and it appears in fact that one could hardly give other reasons... His Majesty informed him through the master of ceremonies to refrain from appearing at court... And informed the King of Prussia of everything that had just happened: for this purpose a cabinet courier was sent to Mr. the Marquis of Rosignan to request the recall of Mr. Keith.>>>
But, if this saved diplomatic conveniences, it was however far from satisfying military and chivalric honor not only with regard to the offended, but also with regard to the offender himself, whose impunity could be attributed first to the impotence to which he had been reduced by the precautions taken by the Sardinian King, and subsequently to his departure for Milan. Now this thought was too much for Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward, so in order to offer himself, and at the same time, his adversary the means of re-establishing their respective reputations in the face of the world, he seized upon an expedient, which could not fail in its intent, if in fact the knight Fresia had been the gentleman he supposed and in fact was: that is, after leaving the royal states, to write various letters to his friends in Turin, in which among other things he warned them that, if anyone had anything to tell him, he would be, on such a day in Brescia, on such a day in Bologna, on such a day in Mantua, etc. The friends, who well understood that this, in the mind of the writer, was an indirect way of making Fresia aware of the appointment that he was assigning him in the indicated cities to give him that satisfaction of honor to which he was entitled, were not slow in making the knight aware of the contents of the letters, nor was he deaf to the invitation, nor did he delay in taking advantage of it; for on the 9th of March 1778, he quietly left Turin, heading towards Mantua, the last post indicated to him. "The king (Perrone wrote again) was not informed of his departure three days later, and he apprised it with great satisfaction, but he was no longer in time to rush to his destination." Despite the statement of the minister, perhaps obliged by his office to use this language, I cannot persuade myself that the King felt all the displeasure from that escapade that he alleged, although perhaps he had to show it, because it is not to be believed that the King did not wish that an officer of his army, so gravely insulted, should try, with the only means imposed on him by public opinion, to remove that stain from his face. Everything therefore leads us to believe that he willingly turned a blind eye to Fresia's actions to let him run to his fate. And Fresia ran straight to meet him in Mantua. Having arrived there, the Mantuan correspondent (who will be named later) says that he sent the Baron a note of challenge in French, which, after the duel, he generously returned to the officer, a note which he gives translated into Italian on a copy which circulated through the city, in the following terms: "My long stay in the citadel, your hasty departure from Turin and the precautions I had to take to remove myself from the sight of my superiors, are the reason why I have not been able to find you before now. Tomorrow morning, therefore, at ten o'clock, I will expect you outside the gate which leads to Parma, to fight you with my sword. I have found you by experience to be a man of transport and fiery spirit, and I flatter myself that this time I will not find you a coward for refusing the challenge, nor a traitor for carrying any other weapon than the sword. We will fight as befits our condition, and your blood or mine will wash away that stain you have made a short time ago on my name. I have the honor to be with those sentiments that are due to you.
Humble. devoted servant Cav. IGNAZIO FRESIA, baron of OGLIANICO Captain of cavalry of S. M. Sarda. »
The story of Perrone wrote informing him of the affair on March 21: "He (Fresia) found him on the 11th of this month in Mantua; Mr. Keith received him very politely, thanked him for the trouble he had taken and for putting him in a position to give him satisfaction for his anger towards him: then they fought sword in hand. The combat passed off very honorably and ended because the sword of the knight Fresia broke; after which they made peace. Mr. Keith received three wounds to the body, only one of which entered the cavity, but it is not believed to be dangerous. The knight Fresia received four, three of which to the right arm and one to the left hand while trying to disarm his opponent. According to the latest letters, this officer is in Verona with Mr. Marquis Maffei, formerly colonel of his regiment."
The incident caused quite a stir both inside and outside Italy, both because of the exceptional position of one of the contending parties and because of the entirely honourable way in which the other party was able to extract itself from a very difficult and delicate affair. From Mantua, various reports of the duel, more or less consistent and more or less public, were immediately distributed throughout Europe, which, collected by the Sardinian ministers abroad, were gradually transmitted to the Court of Turin. I will mention here only one, sent by the knight Camillo Arrigoni of Mantua, on 22 March, that is to say, the very day of the duel, to the knight Nicola Bonacorsi of Rome, who communicated it to Count Graneri, Sardinian ambassador to the Holy See: « I return to trouble you again with my characters to write about a sensational event that occurred here this morning between Baron Keith, minister of the King of Prussia, and Mr. Ogliani, an officer of the King of Sardinia, who came to Mantua yesterday expressly to seek an account of the slap he received from the other a short time ago in Turin, which has caused such a stir in Italy. These two gentlemen went out to a place about three gunshots away from the gate of the city called the Té, and there they fought with swords. Both received many wounds, which however were not mortal, but the officer was mistreated much more than the other. The latter broke his sword in the fight, and was informed of this by the minister, who said that he did not expect any further satisfaction (!), and so the duel ended. On their return to the city, the soldiers stopped them, and took the minister to the high guard and the officer to his home. The commander, as soon as he was informed of the fact, gave orders that they be set free and that their swords be returned to him, and furthermore he made them understand that he advised them not to leave their respective homes. »
In his haste to inform his friend of the event, Arrigoni had overlooked some inaccuracies and details, which he hastened to correct and add in the following terms four days later: « The Piedmontese officer left here on the evening of the same day the duel took place, and went to Verona, where he is at present. His wounds were almost all on the right arm, and as in the act of combat, he lost a lot of blood and felt very weak, so he believed he was worse than he really was. Baron Keith is here, and is being treated by three surgeons. He has many wounds on his chest which are light, and one on the seventh rib which at first gave much cause for fear, but now he is almost certain of recovery. This Government has received orders from Milan to make all imaginable distinctions against him, and in fact carriages cannot pass where he lives, and a consultation has been expressly held to give a separate account of his status to the Court. » So much so that whoever has the advantage of being chamberlain and minister of a Frederick II of Prussia, can at his pleasure do extravagances and be insolent that he will never lack for this neither consideration, nor honors, nor, I am about to say, flattery. In the meantime, according to the impartial report referred to above, which substantially agrees with the outcome of the duel, with that also cited by the Sardinian minister, there can be no doubt that Keith had the worst of it, and that therefore according to the ideas current in the subject matter, the Piedmontese officer, not only morally but also materially, has fully avenged the honor of both his own family, as well as of the Sardinian army, in which he occupied a rather distinguished position. It is therefore not surprising that in Turin in particular, as contemporary memoirs note, the outcome of the duel was heard not only with satisfaction, but also with applause in all ranks of the citizenry, including the Court itself, as the correspondence with its representatives abroad, concerning the event, lets enough filter through even amidst that dignified impassivity in which they pretend to envelop themselves.
Well, this version does illustrate the theory that most 18th century duels weren't fought with lethal intention but to "satisfy honour"; that Fresia chooses the sword (and explicitly refuses any other weapon) fits with that, since if you shoot at each other, there's no way of excluding serious wounding at the least and death otherwise if you actually aim, and if you shoot in the air, then "honour" will not be satisfied by a wound. Whereas presumably noblemen who had fencing lessons for years are able to wound without lethal intention.
(BTW, if someone who will probably be me ever writes that AU where G2 and FW do duel each other, which weapon will these two pick? I mean, when they were boys, they fenced, but as adults around forty, with FW having to spend some of the year in a wheelchair already, whereas G2 was somewhat fitter, I could see someone on the Prussian side making the case for pistols.
(Well, not anyone who wants Fritz to become King in 1729, evidently.)
This still leaves us in the dark as to what was actually said (so my own version still could be canon!), but I am intrigued that Karl Keith, after the initial offense, isn't described that negatively in this Italian source. I mean:
r Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward
And him being considerate enough to leave possible duel assignment letters all over the towns and places. Which btw would also argue that he had to have self control most of the time at least.
which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money, but considering these two aren't related and arguing about an inheritance, that's out.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
that AU where G2 and FW do duel each other, which weapon will these two pick?
It probably depends on who issues the challenge, as I believe the other party gets to choose the weapons? FW might go for pistols, G2 for swords, for the reasons you mention.
I am intrigued that Karl Keith, after the initial offense, isn't described that negatively in this Italian source.
I noticed that too!
And him being considerate enough to leave possible duel assignment letters all over the towns and places. Which btw would also argue that he had to have self control most of the time at least.
Yeah, the argument everyone seems to be making is that he has random fits of madness, not that he's in a permanent G3-like state (someone would have noticed). So I guess you could make a story where he came to, was like, "WTF did I just do?" and decided he needed to make amends.
And that would make sense of the "honor required me to" if it's just referring to the formal duel: honor *would* require him to issue a duel challenge after he had randomly beaten this guy up at a salon.
I can't wait to see what the Prussian archives say; I mostly want to see if they confirm Fritz believing in the "fits of madness" claim we're seeing.
Wow, this whole story keeps getting more elaborate! Also, I can't believe *both* the British archives and the Turin archives have websites that are down, at a time like this. At least I have hope that the former will be restored in a timely manner.
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money
I had the exact same thought! This is clearly how the 19th century cleaned stories up to be more socially acceptable.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
that Fresia chooses the sword (and explicitly refuses any other weapon) fits with that, since if you shoot at each other, there's no way of excluding serious wounding at the least and death otherwise if you actually aim, and if you shoot in the air, then "honour" will not be satisfied by a wound. Whereas presumably noblemen who had fencing lessons for years are able to wound without lethal intention.
I never thought of that, that makes a lot of sense.
Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward
Hmm, yeah!
which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money, but considering these two aren't related and arguing about an inheritance, that's out.
Ooh. That is very interesting.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
Omg, I found it! I found Karl's write-up in the Prussian archives! (Not sure why it didn't come up in a search of his name, which I've certainly done many of in the catalogue, looking for this exact thing. But there it is, "Streit des [preußischen außerordentlichen Gesandten] von Keith mit dem Chevalier Frescia wegen seiner Abberufung," with the same old archive signature number as that given by the 1927 guy. Thank goodness for that guy citing his sources.)
Or at least, I found whatever material is in the Prussian archives on this subject; it may just be correspondence about him and not his own words. Anyway, according to 1927 guy, it supposedly contains an eyewitness account of the incident that does not shed any additional light on wtf happened.
Will place an order with the Prussian archive tomorrow!
I also found the French account that the 1927 guy referred to digitized online. Very short, not sure it has anything new to add, but will translate and report in tomorrow.
Also, weird. It looks from the Prussian archive catalogue like Fritz didn't wait 2 years to send an envoy to Turin, he sent a Count Podewils (son of the famous minister, it looks like) already in 1778, but recalled him in 1780. That's quick!
Ahh, reading further, 1927 guy says Podewils fell victim to some scheming and, being financially independent, left the service voluntarily and withdrew to live on his estate.
Oh, wow, so Victor Amadeus sent an express courier to his envoy in Berlin, the Marquis de Rosignan, telling him to demand an audience with Fritz and request the recall of Keith--that I knew--and Rosignan refused! Because Rosignan didn't want to inconvenience Fritz. He had gone native (adopted a "Fritzische Gesinnung"), so much so that Victor Amadeus had been planning to recall him for a while.
So what I'm getting from a quick skim of 1927 guy is: Rosignan was a Fritz admirer, VA didn't like it, Fritz did; VA was laying the groundwork to recall Rosignan by recalling his Portuguese envoy with the intent of redeploying him to Berlin; Fritz was unhappy about that and demanded to know why and couldn't get a better answer than "Cuz"; then Karl von Keith did his thing; Rosignan was instructed to request his recall; Rosignan refused; VA then had to wait 3 further months to recall Rosignan because the mere presence of a Fritzisch envoy in Berlin acted as an antidote to the deteriorating relations between the two states after Karl's shenanigans; Rosignan finally got recalled and replaced.
Wow. Okay. I really need to go to bed. But envoy drama!
What I find most amazing is that Rosignan went this much native, which makes him pretty unique among envoys (at least during Fritz' own reign; and even if we extend it to FW's era, for Suhm for all his Fritz affection still gave Brühl correct advice, which was not favorable to Prussia, while still being envoy). I mean, Mitchell got pretty fannish about Fritz early on while campaigning with him and tried his best to maintain those subsidies during the 7 Years War, but his fannishness didn't exclude some critique at all times (whether wrongly, as when he is afraid Fritz still writing to Voltaire might lead to Fritz revealing military secrets, or correctly, as when he's appalled at the treatment of Dresden by Fritz later in the war), and when attempts to call him back were made mid war, he didn't outright refuse but played it cunningly and let Fritz request his continued presence.
As for the other envoys:
Hanbury-Williams: Some of my invective about Fritz was deemed unprintable in the 1920s.
Valory: Whereas I got reprinted a lot in my Fritz estimations, especially the part where I say he is charming until he has secured you and then doesn't bother anymore. But then, he did write me and my secretary into his wannabe satiric epic. As for my priorities, vive la France, obviously!
Marquis de la Puebla: I was the Austrian envoy. Fritz actually behaved pretty reasonably towards me, all things considered, including the fact Fredersdorf and he read my mail, but yeah, at no point was I in danger of getting fannish about him. If I was, MT would have replaced me in a heartbeat.
Two mitigating factors for Rosignan: one, this is 1778, when Fritzmania is at its peak, Fritz is a celebrity for having won the Seven Years' War, people are traveling from all over Europe to see him. Two, Sardinia is a much more minor state, likely to be looking *up* to Prussia, rather than jockeying for position with it.
Do we have any data points on Stratemann? He came from a less powerful state and had strong fannish tendencies (FWmania?), but I don't know if they would have extended to refusing a command from back home.
As far as I recall Stratemann was, in fact, Prussian, or rather, Brandenburgian by birth, and got the Brunswick envoy job by appointment. (Not unusual - Manteuffel was also Prussian by birth only headed towards Saxony in search of a job when as a young man he supposedly made an ill advised joke about F1's possible not quite mistress.
Anyway, Stratemann being Prussian explains why he's generally impressed and in awe of FW and putting a Disney spin on him.
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timeasmymeasure
A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-05-28 08:18 pm (UTC)As a refresher, Peter's son Karl was recalled from his position as envoy to the court of Turin after fighting a duel and lightly wounding Chevalier Fresia, an officer at court. Karl's uncle Hertzberg wrote, "I have represented the matter to the king in a report from the Ministry in such a fashion that he had to recall him, but that he has not given evidence of greater displeasure than the fault that our young people have of follies and crazy heads."
Trier confirms this by including Fritz's reply: "It's necessary to recall him. These are the follies and the crazy heads that all your young people [have]."
Then Karl got back and wrote to Fritz that honor required him to do what he did, even though it was incompatible with his position as envoy.
Karl also said that he did a complete write-up of the affair in a report he made to the Ministry, but I haven't been able to find it.
If I make it to Berlin next year, I'll visit the archives in person and see if it turns up, but since it's not in the place it should be (Karl's reports to the ministry), I'm betting it was disappeared by Hertzberg as not being to Karl's advantage.
So then I tried finding an Italian version of events, but the Turin government website, with the state archives and library, has been down for months and months, it's very frustrating. I can't even get started on a quest to figure out where it might be.
Tried looking for 18th century newspapers in Turin, no luck.
Then it occurred to me: if I have learned *one* thing from the last 6 years in salon, it is that what is a gold mine? Envoy reports are a gold mine! They may not be accurate, but they contain all the gossip. And surely *some* envoy at Turin wrote down the gossip about this duel!
So, which archive to consult? Not my go-to, the Prussian state archives, already checked there and I can't find it. Plus, while I'd love to have Karl's biased-in-his-favor report, I'd like to have a counterpoint from a different perspective.
Not the French, because the French archive charges 25 euros per page to scan. (I emailed them and they confirmed. How anyone gets research done is a mystery; it's legit cheaper to go to Paris.) Of course, if I make it to Paris next year, this will be high on the list of things I look for! But for now, no.
And Turin is a small enough state that I'm not sure if all the smaller German principalities (like Brunswick or whatever) would have an envoy there. Austria, maybe, but I would need to figure out how their archives work.
But then I remembered that Great Britain would definitely have had an envoy at Turin in this period (which they didn't before War of the Spanish Succession), and I've been placing several orders with the British national archives!
So I tracked down who was British envoy to Turin in 1778, and ordered scans of his reports from January and February.
This morning, I received a batch of scans that included the following two gloriously dramatic accounts.
January 28, 1778
Sir,
I have the honor to acquaint you that the Baron Keith, envoy from the King of Prussia to his Sardinian Majesty has been forbid the court, & is preparing to leave this capital. These steps have been taken in consequence of a very extraordinary event, which has lately taken place & in which this unhappy gentleman has behaved in so very strange a manner, that the disorders he has been guilty of, and the outrages he has committed, admit of no palliation, but such as may be drawn for the supposition that he is, or was at least for the moment, actually deprived of his senses. I shall take the liberty of giving you a short but authentick account of the whole affair.
Mons. Keith was last Friday evening at the assembly of Madame la Marquise d'Aglie, where were present the lady of the house, the Comte de St. Paul, a gentleman of this country, the Chevalier Rinco, one of the equerries of the Princess of Piemont, the Marquis Caluzzo, son to the Sardinian ambassador at the court of Madrid, and the Chevalier Fresia, a captain of the queen's regiment of dragoons, and a younger brother of a very good family of the same name. The company being seated in a circle, the conversation for some time was general, but soon fell upon chemistry, and was more particularly taken up by the Prussian minister & the Chevalier Fresia. The former having advanced some propositions relative to the qualities and properties of fixed air, which the latter did not seem entirely to assent to, a difference of opinion arose between them, but without any apparent warmth or animosity on either side, on the contrary Mons. Keith with seeming politeness told him if he would come any day to his house, he would show him some experiments which would convince him of the reality of what had been advanced. This was accepted by the Chevalier, and the greatest politeness observed on both sides. The arrival of a visitor put an end to the conversation. The gentlemen arose and stood round the fire.
After the space of a few minutes, Mons. Keith took hold of the Chevalier Fresia by the arm, and told him he had something to say to him in the next room. This, tho remarked by the company, did not produce the least apprehension of the extraordinary scene which was soon followed, as it was observed that when they were at the door, the usual compliments were made of who should go out first. When they were in the antichamber, Mr. Keith shut the door, and addressed himself to Mr. Fresia in the most indecent terms and at the same time struck him a violent blow on one side of the head and immediately drew his sword. The Chevalier was staggered with the blow, he endeavoured to recover himself, but suddenly turning round his foot, slipped, & he fell to the ground & could never raise himself sufficiently to put himself in a posture of defence or indeed draw his sword out of the scabbard. The Prussian envoy attacked him with fury, but fortunately, such was his rage and passion, that of above fifty thrusts which he made at him, none took place, except a few slight scratches, which the Chevalier received on the hand with which he parried the strokes, & one in the thigh, which might have been of consequence, had not it luckily struck against a bunch of keys in his pocket which entirely destroyed its effect.
The noise they made soon brought out the other gentlemen, who interfered and put an end to this unequal conflict. The Marquis d'Aglie came out of an adjoining cabinet, and said to him, "Mon Dieu, Monsieur Keith, what are you doing?" He answered, "Monsieur, I beg your pardon for what has just happened in your house, but I could not do otherwise, because this man spoke to me," & having said this he left the house.
[The dialogue is all in French: "Mon Dieu, Monsieur Keith, que faites-vous?" and "Monsieur, je vous demande pardon de ce qui vient de passer dans votre maison, mais je ne pouvois pas faire autrement, car cet homme m'a parlé."]
I will now do myself the honor to communicate to you the steps which this government has since taken. The Comte Rebuf, Major de la Place & acting officer under the governor of this town, was privately sent to him to talk to him about it. The Prussian minister at first spoke of it as a rencontre, which might very soon be settled between him and the Chevalier Fresia, but upon being told that it was not looked upon in that light, & that his character of foreign minister would debar him from adopting any proceedings of that kind, he said "What do you want? It's a delirium, a fit of madness, it's not the first time." ["Que voulez vous? C'est un délire, un accès de folie, ce n'est pas pour la première fois."]
His Sardinian Majesty was immediately informed of this affair, and that very night or the next morning Ct. Perron by order of the King of Sardinia wrote to Mr. Keith to the following purports: that has he had been guilty of an excess, the reasons for which did not yet sufficiently appear, it was thought proper to forbid him to appear at court till further notice, that notwithstanding what had passed, his person should be respected and left at liberty; that if he choose to stay quietly at home, their government would effectually secure him from any personal accidents or insults, but that if he went out, it would in no wise be responsible for what might happen to him; at the same time he was given to understand that if he proceeded to make any further attacks upon the lives or honor of any of the subjects of these dominions, His Sardinian Majesty would be obliged to look upon them in their proper light and act accordingly.
This message was officially communicated to the corps diplomatique at this court, and they were asked, whether it contained anything contrary to their privileges, or whether they had any objections to alledge against it? They unanimously answered in the negative. A regular proces verbal has been made of the whole and sent off by an express to Berlin, before he was dispatched Count Perron sent word to Monsieur Keith that a messenger would soon set out for that place, & that he had orders to take care and deliver any packet which he might want to send upon this occasion. The Prussian Minister thanked him for, but declined the offer, and in a private note which he sent at the same time, intreated him to employ his good offices, that the court of Turin might not demand any satisfaction eclatante of the King his Master. This I understand will be complied with.
Since that he has returned a written answer to the message I have related to the following purports: that has the intimation he had received from the King of Sardinia through the channel of the Secretary of State's office for foreign affairs, had put it out of his power to discharge one of his principal duties as foreign minister, which was to pay his personal court to the sovereign of the country where he resided, his longer stay here was become unnecessary; he therefore gave notice, that unless he should, contrary to his expectations, meet with any impediment, he was preparing for his departure, & should set out as soon as his affairs would permit him; it is not known where he will retire to, or whether he will quit these dominions, or wait somewhere in the neighbourhood, 'till he receives the orders of his Prussian Majesty.
This Sir is the precis of the very extraordinary affair. I have not entered much into particulars, because Ct. Perron has told me the whole account will be sent to the Marquis de Cordon, who will be instructed to communicate it to Lord Weymouth.
Wm. Deane Poyntz
February 18, 1778
Sir,
As a supplement to the letter which I did myself the honor of writing to you a few posts ago about the Prussian minister at this court, I will now take the liberty of informing you that the courier, who was dispatched to Berlin upon that occasion, returned to this place on Sunday last. His Prussian Majesty in his answer expresses his surprise at and utter disapprobation of the very extraordinary behaviour of his minister, and attributes it entirely to the state of insanity, of which it now appears that gentleman had given many proofs in the younger part of his life; that he could not but be much displeased with his family, who had hitherto concealed this circumstance from him, and suffered their relation to undertake a commission, for which they knew he was so improperly qualified. That he would endeavour to atone for the involuntary error into which he had been led by recalling the Baron Keith immediately, but that as he had had such bad success in the choice of his first minister, he had ever sent to this court, he would wait a short time before he replaced him, and would do his utmost to pitch upon a proper person, whose behaviour should make ample amends for the rash and unguarded conduct of his predecessor. His Prussian Majesty acknowledges himself highly sensible of the moderation of the court of Turin, and is particularly pleased with the attention & politeness with which this government treated Monsieur Keith, considered as his minister. This latter left this place about ten days ago,and was met by the Sardinian courier at Verona, who delivered to him his letters of recall.
The Chevalier Fresia had been under arrest ever since the affair happened, but was immediately set at liberty upon the receipt of the answer of his Prussian Majesty.
Wm. Deane Poyntz
Okay, this is *completely* not how our previous accounts had led us to perceive the matter! Instead of Karl saying, "Honor required me to act as I did," he's saying, "Temporary insanity, what are you going to do?" and instead of Fritz going, "Those young hotheads of today," he's going, "The family deceived me! This guy suffers from regular fits of temporary insanity!"
So. Poyntz. He was not an eyewitness, he could as be poorly informed as Dickens, Lovenorn, Johnn, and Stratemann in Berlin in 1730. However, he seems to have two separate data points: one about the duel shortly after it happened, and one about Fritz's reply, and the two accounts seem compatible with each other on the most major point.
Karl: could easily be lying to Fritz to try to keep his job.
Fritz: could also be lying! He could be just passing the buck onto the family in a "Not all Prussians!" strategy to keep the Sardinian king from thinking Prussian envoys are just hotheads like this. On the other hand, Fritz could have acquired new information between when he replied to Hertzberg about the young hotheads and when he replied to the king of Sardinia about Karl's congenital insanity.
Either way, this is VERY DRAMATIC and everything I dreamed of, and it's going into the bio of Peter!
Also, when I was looking at the instructions to Karl's successor as envoy to Turin in the Prussian catalogue, I seem to recall that the instructions dated from 1780, two years later. So I'm not surprised to see Fritz saying he's going to wait a little while and take his time choosing his next envoy. Looks like he took 2 years.
I was looking at them, btw, as part of my quest to find more details on the duel: I was hoping they included instructions along the lines of "And remember to make amends for your idiot predecessor" with hopefully some detail on what the idiot predecessor did.
I was unable to order those instructions, but they're on my list to check out if I make it to an archive in Berlin in person. I doubt they'll have any gossip as sensationalist as this, though!
I'm going to try to see if I can find the even fuller account Poyntz talks about, and of course if I make it to Paris, I'll see what I can do about the French envoy's account.
Meanwhile, enjoy the popcorn, and I'm so stoked that I've got more exciting fodder for the bio!!
ETA: I meant to add, one possible way to reconcile the accounts is that after the two men entered the room together, Chevalier Fresia said something that Karl took offense to (and overreacted to), something he could later point to when writing to Fritz about how honor totally required him to do what he did!
Uncle of ETA: Oh, and one of Karl's uncles did say that Karl was unsuited to diplomacy and pointed to the letter-opening incident that I told you about. But nobody talked about insanity in all the many letters I've read! Which, of course could easily be covered up by the family as long as possible, even when writing amongst themselves. Especially with letters prone to being opened.
Oh, and speaking of Knyphausen family letters, I have a lot more interesting Knyphausen family gossip to share from another batch of letters I got a few weeks ago, but since I'm short on time, I'm thinking of just letting you read about it in the Peter bio. I'm hoping to have a draft ready for you two this summer. I finished the second draft about 10 days ago and just want to polish the prose (and incorporate today's duel findings! and maybe do a bit of Schwerin research) before passing it on to you.
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-05-29 02:57 am (UTC)I meant to say that the comment title is because I was reading along and got to the part where they were talking about chemistry, and I genuinely thought they were going to fight over scientific theories! A duel for science! Then I got to the next part and realized I didn't know *what* they were dueling (if you can call it that) for.
But if it did happen happen anything like Poyntz describes, it's funny, because I've seen numerous descriptions of Karl as interested in science, including one that said that after he withdrew from society, he spent his last decades living for science and the arts.
Living for science! Assaulting for science!
if he choose to stay quietly at home
Also, at first I thought: this should be easy for him, since he's been staying home by preference since he returned from university in his early 20s!
Then I thought about his near total withdrawal from society, sometimes even refusing to see family and only agreeing to see his paintings and some painters he had over...if there *was* an element of fits of temporary insanity (whether poor anger management or some more neurological disorder), and I'm not saying there was, but maybe he was worried about this happening again?
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-05-29 10:21 am (UTC)As the duel not being about science, this reminds me, didn't Maupertuis at some point contemplate duelling Voltaire in non-writerly fashion? (I mean, not that Fritz would have allowed that; even at his most pissed off at Voltaire, I don't see him sanctioning anything that was likely to get Voltaire killed, considering the physical state of fitness of either gentleman.)
But back to Karl: mentally ill or misunderstood? Well, if he truly kicked and hit the guy when said guy was already down, then that's definitely not covered by the duel code and one should hope he had temporarily taken leave of his senses. However...
...there are of course Prussian precedents of the highest status. FW certainly qualifies for well testified "poor anger management", to put it mildly, from early childhood onwards. Not helped by very painful physical ailments in later life and him self medicating with a lot of alcohol. Leaving aside SD at one point wanting to have him declared insane when Fritz was 15 or thereabouts in order to have her boy come to power, with or without herself as Regent for a few years, and didn't get far even with the envoys being anti FW - do we think FW was genuinely mentally ill, or was he simply a bad combination of temper plus absolute power with no higher authority checks once his father was dead?
And then there's Our Antihero, who was physically abusive to his servants now and then in his later years, definitely hitting and kicking them in addition to the verbal lashing out which he had already done for decades. Now, both FW and Fritz and of course Karl Keith are living in a society where violence towards servants from a person in a higher position is seen as okay and/or necessariy discipline for those lazy servants, and it's only when the violence is turned against someone of the same social position (or nearly so) that it's commented on and disapproved. (They're also coming from a society where physical violence gainst kids by teachers is expected, even with aristocratic children, in both genders, lest we forget Wilhelmine and her governess. What I'm getting at here is that it's very trickly to establish what qualifies as mentally ill and what as simply being an ill-mannered jerk in such a society.
Of course, Karl becoming so very hermit like does look like he might have considered himself as unsafe in society and that this was his way of dealing with it, certainly a better one for him and others than being locked up. (Though of course we don't know what he was doing to his servants.)
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-05-29 11:23 pm (UTC)You should have seen me exclaiming out loud yesterday morning as I was reading it! I may be addicted to ordering scans from archives. :D
As the duel not being about science, this reminds me, didn't Maupertuis at some point contemplate duelling Voltaire in non-writerly fashion?
I had forgotten this, but yes, he did!
(I mean, not that Fritz would have allowed that;
I doubt they would have waited for his approval. Dueling had been illegal in France for over a hundred years at that point, so Frenchmen were accustomed to doing their dueling in secret.
FW certainly qualifies for well testified "poor anger management", to put it mildly, from early childhood onwards.
Me when I first read this: You mean the guy whose outbursts have been attributed to porphyria by some scholars? ;)
do we think FW was genuinely mentally ill, or was he simply a bad combination of temper plus absolute power with no higher authority checks once his father was dead?
The problem with the framing of this question is that there's no clear, agreed-upon distinction between "mentally ill" and "personality," nor what constitutes free will. Neuroscientists and philosophers are *still* debating it. I think we can all agree Fritz had PTSD. According to the DSM and whatever the German equivalent is, that means he was mentally ill. Does that mean that he didn't have a bad combination of temper plus absolute power with no higher authority checks once his father was dead? Obviously not. Would he have been less likely to assault his servants without the PTSD? Probably. Do we generally consider that to mean that he had completely taken leave of his senses, in the sense that, for example, we attribute to a psychotic break? We do not.
Very few mental illnesses strip you of free will in the way that epilepsy does. How accountable was FW for his actions? He always seemed to know where he was and what was going on, and to act according to some kind of internally consistent logic. So I would say he had a set of values, and one of his values was that he should be able to enforce his values with his fists and his cane.
Karl: Well, one reading of the evidence we have is that he had some kind of seizure out of the blue that manifested as aggression, similar to Springer Rage in dogs. Another reading is that he was acting according to the dictates of honor, and he believed he was justified in his actions. Maybe he had a really bad temper, and he invoked insanity as a defense to avoid a worse punishment.
Of course, a major possibility is that we're hearing gossip passed on largely by Italians about how an Italian was totally the defenseless and innocent victim of some crazy Prussian. We are *in* Italy, after all, and I bet the game of telephone is dominated by people who would see the Chevalier Fresia as one of them and Karl as an outsider.
Of course, Karl becoming so very hermit like does look like he might have considered himself as unsafe in society and that this was his way of dealing with it, certainly a better one for him and others than being locked up. (Though of course we don't know what he was doing to his servants.)
Entirely possible! Of course, he had hermit-like tendencies as early as 1764, and maybe he was clinically depressed!
I really wish we had his side of the story. But we do have him saying that honor required him to act as he did. Which makes me think he didn't have random attacks of pure psychosis, but overreacted to some provocation.
In any case, after all the bills and invoices and contracts and loans and interest I've had to decipher, this is a breath of fresh air! (And not just because I didn't have to decipher it. ;)
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-05-30 07:02 am (UTC)Very few mental illnesses strip you of free will in the way that epilepsy does. How accountable was FW for his actions? He always seemed to know where he was and what was going on, and to act according to some kind of internally consistent logic. So I would say he had a set of values, and one of his values was that he should be able to enforce his values with his fists and his cane.
Mostly yes, with the caveat that there is the occasional "I am a bad man" in conversation with Pastors, meaning not that he didn't feel himself entitled to physical violence as punishment but that he was on some level aware he went above and beyond and that this conflicted with his idea of himself as a good Christian monarch anad father. Also, the fact that on two famous occasions, he could be talked out of the violence - after having applied some of it already to Wilhelmine, granted - (the "don't be a Peter the Great or Philip of Spain!" homecoming scene from August 15th 1730), and if it happened the earlier time where General Mosel stopped him from attacking Fritz with a sword directly which I used as the springboard for my AU Fiat Justitia) - would indicate he had enough self control and self awareness during those rage times to stop IF he wanted to.
(Whereas, say, G3 during his mental breakdowns - both the earlier ones he recovered from and the final one he never did - was not able to stop out of his own free will.)
Of course, a major possibility is that we're hearing gossip passed on largely by Italians about how an Italian was totally the defenseless and innocent victim of some crazy Prussian. We are *in* Italy, after all, and I bet the game of telephone is dominated by people who would see the Chevalier Fresia as one of them and Karl as an outsider.
That is very true, and leaving aside the example of the Guy-Dickens reports of prisoner!Fritz growing a long beard and being chained to the wall when no such thing happened or the "Wilhelmine gets thrown out of a window" story from Voltaire which grew out of FW slapping and dragging her, but certainly not attempting murder, there is another FW era example I can now think of, i.e. the quarrel he had with Denmark where we have the conflicting reports about the abduction and counter abduction/liberation of a tall guy, where the Prussian report has the Prussian recruiters being entirely peaceful and just hanging their wet socks up to dry at the fire in the inn when these violent peasants storm in and beat them up and leave with their voluntarily recruited soldier and the Danish report is full of abusive Prussians and a heroically saved shephard.
Now, here is how fiction ought to present what set Karl off, and why he couldn't get into specifics other than "honor required...":
Turin person: "Say, is it true you got the job just because your father was your King's boytoy for a brief time?"
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
From:Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
From:Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-05-30 03:25 am (UTC)Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 03:01 am (UTC)Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 03:05 am (UTC)He was opposed to Bismarck's excessive military budget, which angered Bismarck sufficiently that he challenged Virchow to a duel in 1865. Virchow declined because he considered dueling an uncivilized way to solve a conflict. Various English-language sources purport a different version of events, the so-called "Sausage Duel". It has Virchow, being the one challenged and therefore entitled to choose the weapons, selecting two pork sausages, one loaded with Trichinella larvae, the other safe; Bismarck declined. However, there are no German-language documents confirming this version.
Awww. :P
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
From:Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
From:Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-02 10:50 pm (UTC)We don't, but while looking for something else, I ran into a document that was easy enough Kurrent to sight-read, and I found a letter from someone complaining that Karl didn't even mention him in his will despite the fact that he served half his life as Karl's chamberlain, then before that worked for one of Karl's uncles as Haus Officiant, and before that, one of Karl's aunts and uncles-in-law, for a total of 50 years in the service of this family. He's now in his 70th year, not fit in age or health for further service, and it was with "shock, horror, and distress" that he learned that Karl's last will didn't mention someone who served him faithfully for over 30 years.
Of course, this is the servant's perspective trying to get money out of the Knyphausen heir, and not necessarily immediately an indictment of Karl, but in an age without much of a safety net, I can understand the shock, horror, and distress. He seems to have a wife and three grown children (it's not clear to me what they're doing for a living), and he doesn't want to become a "source of mockery or a burden" to other people in his old age.
I wish either my deciphering skills were slightly better, or else everyone had handwriting like this guy, because there's got to be tons of interesting tidbits like this out there, if only I could sight-read more of these documents. (I think it might be a generational thing; the early 19th century generation seems to form their letters in a way that I'm not used to, but this 70-year-old guy was trivial to read, as Kurrent goes.)
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 02:43 am (UTC)HAHAHAHA because this is exactly what I thought for the chemistry part! Until yeah, I was like, "wait, but... they might not be?? What ARE they fighting about??"
if there *was* an element of fits of temporary insanity (whether poor anger management or some more neurological disorder), and I'm not saying there was, but maybe he was worried about this happening again?
:/ Seems plausible to me.
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 03:02 am (UTC)Exactly!
When I was brainstorming what I would do if I were writing fiction, it was absolutely going to be a duel over the properties of fixed air! But then Selena had an even better idea. :D
Also, I had to look up what "fixed air" was, and wiktionary tells me it's carbon dioxide.
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-08 10:11 pm (UTC)Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 02:41 am (UTC)"Monsieur, I beg your pardon for what has just happened in your house, but I could not do otherwise, because this man spoke to me" / ["Monsieur, je vous demande pardon de ce qui vient de passer dans votre maison, mais je ne pouvois pas faire autrement, car cet homme m'a parlé."]
I'm glad you provided the translation, because while it's reasonable enough French that my French is sufficient to be able to translate it, I would have been like, "uhhhh I must be missing someting?" Because this man spoke to me?? Is this an idiom for "insult" that I don't know about?
I meant to add, one possible way to reconcile the accounts is that after the two men entered the room together, Chevalier Fresia said something that Karl took offense to (and overreacted to), something he could later point to when writing to Fritz about how honor totally required him to do what he did!
That's what I had assumed before reading the above, but that just seems weird. It would be interesting to see if anyone knew what Keith said Fresia said, if anything. From Poyntz's account it sounds like everyone thinks it's just bizarre! Which it is!
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 02:55 am (UTC)I'm glad you provided the translation, because while it's reasonable enough French that my French is sufficient to be able to translate it, I would have been like, "uhhhh I must be missing someting?" Because this man spoke to me?? Is this an idiom for "insult" that I don't know about?
Yeah, I had to read it more than once to make sure I wasn't missing something! It does run over the end of a page, and the margin is slightly cut off, so it's possible some very short word is missing? Because I would expect "because of the way this man spoke to me" or "because this man spoke to me evilly" or something.
But I also don't see what could fit into the margin that would make grammatical and semantic sense here. I gave you what I see on the page and did my best to make sense of it!
Also, for what it's worth, the reason I put "[have]" at the end of Fritz's quote is that the French makes even less sense, and must be missing something! So it's also possible Poyntz just made a mistake when switching from the end of one line to the beginning of the next...we saw something like that (or at least that's what I think is going on) in the Fredersdorf letters, where Selena confirmed it makes no sense as stands.
I think sometimes people have memory lapses when they get to the end of a line on a page and have to pause to transition to the beginning of the next line at the far opposite side of the page.
It would be interesting to see if anyone knew what Keith said Fresia said, if anything.
Yeah, I started looking into the Austrian archives today. :P They're quite a bit more expensive than the German ones, but not as bad as the French, so maybe I can make something work out just this once. For such a DRAMATIC cause, you know. ;)
I also started checking out the British archives just now to see if I could find the extra detailed account Poyntz mentions, but of course the online catalogue is down.
Also, I told my wife this story when we chatted today, about how the story going around in Italy has a poor Italian guy lying helpless on the ground while some Prussian madman attacks him for no reason at all, and she was like, "Suuuurrre." She's with me on the possible bias of the account here. ;)
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 03:10 am (UTC)We are indebted to you, O Detective, for providing us with the DRAMA!
I am pleased that my efforts to track down an elusive account of this duel have been so well received by salon. *glowing*
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 03:32 am (UTC)Damn, I might have a hard time finding it, though, even though the archive number is cited, because the organizational system changed between 1927 and now; old archive citations are useless. But let's see what a detective can do...
Also, the author says he couldn't access the Turin newspaper. I have found it! I have the digitized account in front of me. It's in a mixture of Italian and French, I'm going to translate it!
Brb...
Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-01 04:22 am (UTC)Victor Amadeus III was finally given what his father and grandfather had never been allowed by political conditions, both his own and European, to do: to reduce to official diplomatic relations the relations of good friendship that had existed for centuries between the two houses of Savoy and Brandenburg, which until then had never dealt with their mutual interests except indirectly and, I might say, on the sly. Victor Amadeus's sympathies and enthusiastic admiration for the great Frederick of Prussia had been felt since he was still only Duke of Savoy, and they later sometimes exposed him to ridicule, when, having succeeded his father on the throne, at the beginning of 1773, he pushed them too far in his attempt to model himself and his things on the favorite prototypical hero. It is therefore not surprising that, as soon as he was able to dispose of the sum of things, he immediately took up an entrance at the Court of Berlin for regular diplomatic correspondence.
This was, in any case, an act of good politics after the Treaty of Versailles of 1758 had transformed France and Austria, from bitter rivals, which they had always been, into two fervent allies, and, at the same time, also an act of courage and independence, which, in Paris and Vienna, might have been received with some suspicion in a moment of bad humor. And indeed, against such a danger he did not fail to take precautions at the two Courts through his ambassadors resident there: "The King (the minister wrote on the affairs of Count De Viry in Paris) instructs you to confide this to the ministers of His Most Christian Majesty, and to assure them that he has no other object in view in this dispatch of ministers than that of a simple friendly communication between him and His Prussian Majesty, without it ever being able to influence in any way his invariable system of good understanding with the other Courts."
The matter, however, passed without incident; and, on the other hand, the King of Prussia, willingly accepting the proposal made to him, appointed as his first representative in Turin the Baron de Keit, his Chamberlain, who arrived there, leaving in the year 1774, announced there by the Prussian minister with this, in truth, too laconic description: "Il est encore jeune; il a des talents." As to talents, I could not say whether and to what extent he was truly endowed; but since King Frederick chose him to inaugurate that diplomatic correspondence, which he had shown himself to hold in no small regard, the presumption is undoubtedly in his favor. Except that, in a youthful state, he quickly gave evidence that he brought with him not a few of the defects inherent in it, which wasted a great part of the talents he could have had, and were on more than one occasion close to jeopardizing the good relations and mutual dispositions of the two Courts. The most serious of all was the incident, the main subject of this writing, which, in 1778, gave rise to the bizarre, choleric and impetuous character of the Prussian ambassador, and which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry.
Here is how Count Perrone, then Minister of Foreign Affairs, reported the event to Count Scarnafigi, who had been transferred from the embassy in Vienna to that in Paris, on the 24th of 1778:
"Yesterday evening, a rather serious incident occurred at the home of the Marquis d'Agliè, where there was a good company, which resulted from Baron Keith, the envoy special of His Majesty the King of Prussia, who picked a quarrel and struck with his hand and sword the Chevalier Fresia d'Oglianico, captain in the King's Dragoon Regiment, without this officer having given him the slightest reason for doing so either at the very moment it happened or beforehand." The king, informed, the fate of the matter, well knowing that Fresia was not his only fear of bearing him in time for the grave affront, "had the horse put on the spot (continued on the 28th and his companions) Fresia under arrest with a sentry at his door and gave the other arrangements necessary for the safety of Mr. Keith's person, and to prevent the offended or any other person from failing in the consideration due to the character with which this minister is invested. As the Major of the city, who received orders to give these arrangements, found himself in some sort of liaison with Mr. Keith, he was at the same time instructed to inform this minister. I enclose here a copy of this Major's report, by which you will see that Mr. Keith himself attributes his outburst to a moment of delirium, of which he admits to having had other fits and it appears in fact that one could hardly give other reasons... His Majesty informed him through the master of ceremonies to refrain from appearing at court... And informed the King of Prussia of everything that had just happened: for this purpose a cabinet courier was sent to Mr. the Marquis of Rosignan to request the recall of Mr. Keith.>>>
But, if this saved diplomatic conveniences, it was however far from satisfying military and chivalric honor not only with regard to the offended, but also with regard to the offender himself, whose impunity could be attributed first to the impotence to which he had been reduced by the precautions taken by the Sardinian King, and subsequently to his departure for Milan. Now this thought was too much for Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward, so in order to offer himself, and at the same time, his adversary the means of re-establishing their respective reputations in the face of the world, he seized upon an expedient, which could not fail in its intent, if in fact the knight Fresia had been the gentleman he supposed and in fact was: that is, after leaving the royal states, to write various letters to his friends in Turin, in which among other things he warned them that, if anyone had anything to tell him, he would be, on such a day in Brescia, on such a day in Bologna, on such a day in Mantua, etc. The friends, who well understood that this, in the mind of the writer, was an indirect way of making Fresia aware of the appointment that he was assigning him in the indicated cities to give him that satisfaction of honor to which he was entitled, were not slow in making the knight aware of the contents of the letters, nor was he deaf to the invitation, nor did he delay in taking advantage of it; for on the 9th of March 1778, he quietly left Turin, heading towards Mantua, the last post indicated to him. "The king (Perrone wrote again) was not informed of his departure three days later, and he apprised it with great satisfaction, but he was no longer in time to rush to his destination." Despite the statement of the minister, perhaps obliged by his office to use this language, I cannot persuade myself that the King felt all the displeasure from that escapade that he alleged, although perhaps he had to show it, because it is not to be believed that the King did not wish that an officer of his army, so gravely insulted, should try, with the only means imposed on him by public opinion, to remove that stain from his face. Everything therefore leads us to believe that he willingly turned a blind eye to Fresia's actions to let him run to his fate. And Fresia ran straight to meet him in Mantua. Having arrived there, the Mantuan correspondent (who will be named later) says that he sent the Baron a note of challenge in French, which, after the duel, he generously returned to the officer, a note which he gives translated into Italian on a copy which circulated through the city, in the following terms: "My long stay in the citadel, your hasty departure from Turin and the precautions I had to take to remove myself from the sight of my superiors, are the reason why I have not been able to find you before now. Tomorrow morning, therefore, at ten o'clock, I will expect you outside the gate which leads to Parma, to fight you with my sword. I have found you by experience to be a man of transport and fiery spirit, and I flatter myself that this time I will not find you a coward for refusing the challenge, nor a traitor for carrying any other weapon than the sword. We will fight as befits our condition, and your blood or mine will wash away that stain you have made a short time ago on my name. I have the honor to be with those sentiments that are due to you.
Humble. devoted servant
Cav. IGNAZIO FRESIA, baron of OGLIANICO
Captain of cavalry of S. M. Sarda. »
The story of Perrone wrote informing him of the affair on March 21: "He (Fresia) found him on the 11th of this month in Mantua; Mr. Keith received him very politely, thanked him for the trouble he had taken and for putting him in a position to give him satisfaction for his anger towards him: then they fought sword in hand. The combat passed off very honorably and ended because the sword of the knight Fresia broke; after which they made peace. Mr. Keith received three wounds to the body, only one of which entered the cavity, but it is not believed to be dangerous. The knight Fresia received four, three of which to the right arm and one to the left hand while trying to disarm his opponent. According to the latest letters, this officer is in Verona with Mr. Marquis Maffei, formerly colonel of his regiment."
The incident caused quite a stir both inside and outside Italy, both because of the exceptional position of one of the contending parties and because of the entirely honourable way in which the other party was able to extract itself from a very difficult and delicate affair. From Mantua, various reports of the duel, more or less consistent and more or less public, were immediately distributed throughout Europe, which, collected by the Sardinian ministers abroad, were gradually transmitted to the Court of Turin. I will mention here only one, sent by the knight Camillo Arrigoni of Mantua, on 22 March, that is to say, the very day of the duel, to the knight Nicola Bonacorsi of Rome, who communicated it to Count Graneri, Sardinian ambassador to the Holy See: « I return to trouble you again with my characters to write about a sensational event that occurred here this morning between Baron Keith, minister of the King of Prussia, and Mr. Ogliani, an officer of the King of Sardinia, who came to Mantua yesterday expressly to seek an account of the slap he received from the other a short time ago in Turin, which has caused such a stir in Italy. These two gentlemen went out to a place about three gunshots away from the gate of the city called the Té, and there they fought with swords. Both received many wounds, which however were not mortal, but the officer was mistreated much more than the other. The latter broke his sword in the fight, and was informed of this by the minister, who said that he did not expect any further satisfaction (!), and so the duel ended. On their return to the city, the soldiers stopped them, and took the minister to the high guard and the officer to his home. The commander, as soon as he was informed of the fact, gave orders that they be set free and that their swords be returned to him, and furthermore he made them understand that he advised them not to leave their respective homes. »
In his haste to inform his friend of the event, Arrigoni had overlooked some inaccuracies and details, which he hastened to correct and add in the following terms four days later: « The Piedmontese officer left here on the evening of the same day the duel took place, and went to Verona, where he is at present. His wounds were almost all on the right arm, and as in the act of combat, he lost a lot of blood and felt very weak, so he believed he was worse than he really was. Baron Keith is here, and is being treated by three surgeons. He has many wounds on his chest which are light, and one on the seventh rib which at first gave much cause for fear, but now he is almost certain of recovery. This Government has received orders from Milan to make all imaginable distinctions against him, and in fact carriages cannot pass where he lives, and a consultation has been expressly held to give a separate account of his status to the Court. » So much so that whoever has the advantage of being chamberlain and minister of a Frederick II of Prussia, can at his pleasure do extravagances and be insolent that he will never lack for this neither consideration, nor honors, nor, I am about to say, flattery. In the meantime, according to the impartial report referred to above, which substantially agrees with the outcome of the duel, with that also cited by the Sardinian minister, there can be no doubt that Keith had the worst of it, and that therefore according to the ideas current in the subject matter, the Piedmontese officer, not only morally but also materially, has fully avenged the honor of both his own family, as well as of the Sardinian army, in which he occupied a rather distinguished position. It is therefore not surprising that in Turin in particular, as contemporary memoirs note, the outcome of the duel was heard not only with satisfaction, but also with applause in all ranks of the citizenry, including the Court itself, as the correspondence with its representatives abroad, concerning the event, lets enough filter through even amidst that dignified impassivity in which they pretend to envelop themselves.
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-01 11:33 am (UTC)(BTW, if someone who will probably be me ever writes that AU where G2 and FW do duel each other, which weapon will these two pick? I mean, when they were boys, they fenced, but as adults around forty, with FW having to spend some of the year in a wheelchair already, whereas G2 was somewhat fitter, I could see someone on the Prussian side making the case for pistols.
(Well, not anyone who wants Fritz to become King in 1729, evidently.)
This still leaves us in the dark as to what was actually said (so my own version still could be canon!), but I am intrigued that Karl Keith, after the initial offense, isn't described that negatively in this Italian source. I mean:
r Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward
And him being considerate enough to leave possible duel assignment letters all over the towns and places. Which btw would also argue that he had to have self control most of the time at least.
which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money, but considering these two aren't related and arguing about an inheritance, that's out.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-01 01:28 pm (UTC)It probably depends on who issues the challenge, as I believe the other party gets to choose the weapons? FW might go for pistols, G2 for swords, for the reasons you mention.
I am intrigued that Karl Keith, after the initial offense, isn't described that negatively in this Italian source.
I noticed that too!
And him being considerate enough to leave possible duel assignment letters all over the towns and places. Which btw would also argue that he had to have self control most of the time at least.
Yeah, the argument everyone seems to be making is that he has random fits of madness, not that he's in a permanent G3-like state (someone would have noticed). So I guess you could make a story where he came to, was like, "WTF did I just do?" and decided he needed to make amends.
And that would make sense of the "honor required me to" if it's just referring to the formal duel: honor *would* require him to issue a duel challenge after he had randomly beaten this guy up at a salon.
I can't wait to see what the Prussian archives say; I mostly want to see if they confirm Fritz believing in the "fits of madness" claim we're seeing.
Wow, this whole story keeps getting more elaborate! Also, I can't believe *both* the British archives and the Turin archives have websites that are down, at a time like this. At least I have hope that the former will be restored in a timely manner.
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money
I had the exact same thought! This is clearly how the 19th century cleaned stories up to be more socially acceptable.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
Truly an excellent theory. :)
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
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Date: 2025-06-08 10:30 pm (UTC)that Fresia chooses the sword (and explicitly refuses any other weapon) fits with that, since if you shoot at each other, there's no way of excluding serious wounding at the least and death otherwise if you actually aim, and if you shoot in the air, then "honour" will not be satisfied by a wound. Whereas presumably noblemen who had fencing lessons for years are able to wound without lethal intention.
I never thought of that, that makes a lot of sense.
Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward
Hmm, yeah!
which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money, but considering these two aren't related and arguing about an inheritance, that's out.
Ooh. That is very interesting.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
Ha! I mean, it's a great theory!
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 05:40 am (UTC)Or at least, I found whatever material is in the Prussian archives on this subject; it may just be correspondence about him and not his own words. Anyway, according to 1927 guy, it supposedly contains an eyewitness account of the incident that does not shed any additional light on wtf happened.
Will place an order with the Prussian archive tomorrow!
I also found the French account that the 1927 guy referred to digitized online. Very short, not sure it has anything new to add, but will translate and report in tomorrow.
Also, weird. It looks from the Prussian archive catalogue like Fritz didn't wait 2 years to send an envoy to Turin, he sent a Count Podewils (son of the famous minister, it looks like) already in 1778, but recalled him in 1780. That's quick!
Ahh, reading further, 1927 guy says Podewils fell victim to some scheming and, being financially independent, left the service voluntarily and withdrew to live on his estate.
Oh, wow, so Victor Amadeus sent an express courier to his envoy in Berlin, the Marquis de Rosignan, telling him to demand an audience with Fritz and request the recall of Keith--that I knew--and Rosignan refused! Because Rosignan didn't want to inconvenience Fritz. He had gone native (adopted a "Fritzische Gesinnung"), so much so that Victor Amadeus had been planning to recall him for a while.
So what I'm getting from a quick skim of 1927 guy is: Rosignan was a Fritz admirer, VA didn't like it, Fritz did; VA was laying the groundwork to recall Rosignan by recalling his Portuguese envoy with the intent of redeploying him to Berlin; Fritz was unhappy about that and demanded to know why and couldn't get a better answer than "Cuz"; then Karl von Keith did his thing; Rosignan was instructed to request his recall; Rosignan refused; VA then had to wait 3 further months to recall Rosignan because the mere presence of a Fritzisch envoy in Berlin acted as an antidote to the deteriorating relations between the two states after Karl's shenanigans; Rosignan finally got recalled and replaced.
Wow. Okay. I really need to go to bed. But envoy drama!
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 11:03 am (UTC)As for the other envoys:
Hanbury-Williams: Some of my invective about Fritz was deemed unprintable in the 1920s.
Valory: Whereas I got reprinted a lot in my Fritz estimations, especially the part where I say he is charming until he has secured you and then doesn't bother anymore. But then, he did write me and my secretary into his wannabe satiric epic. As for my priorities, vive la France, obviously!
Marquis de la Puebla: I was the Austrian envoy. Fritz actually behaved pretty reasonably towards me, all things considered, including the fact Fredersdorf and he read my mail, but yeah, at no point was I in danger of getting fannish about him. If I was, MT would have replaced me in a heartbeat.
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 01:33 pm (UTC)Do we have any data points on Stratemann? He came from a less powerful state and had strong fannish tendencies (FWmania?), but I don't know if they would have extended to refusing a command from back home.
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 01:43 pm (UTC)Anyway, Stratemann being Prussian explains why he's generally impressed and in awe of FW and putting a Disney spin on him.
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
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Date: 2025-06-08 10:33 pm (UTC)And envoy drama, wow!