Omg, I found it! I found Karl's write-up in the Prussian archives! (Not sure why it didn't come up in a search of his name, which I've certainly done many of in the catalogue, looking for this exact thing. But there it is, "Streit des [preußischen außerordentlichen Gesandten] von Keith mit dem Chevalier Frescia wegen seiner Abberufung," with the same old archive signature number as that given by the 1927 guy. Thank goodness for that guy citing his sources.)
Or at least, I found whatever material is in the Prussian archives on this subject; it may just be correspondence about him and not his own words. Anyway, according to 1927 guy, it supposedly contains an eyewitness account of the incident that does not shed any additional light on wtf happened.
Will place an order with the Prussian archive tomorrow!
I also found the French account that the 1927 guy referred to digitized online. Very short, not sure it has anything new to add, but will translate and report in tomorrow.
Also, weird. It looks from the Prussian archive catalogue like Fritz didn't wait 2 years to send an envoy to Turin, he sent a Count Podewils (son of the famous minister, it looks like) already in 1778, but recalled him in 1780. That's quick!
Ahh, reading further, 1927 guy says Podewils fell victim to some scheming and, being financially independent, left the service voluntarily and withdrew to live on his estate.
Oh, wow, so Victor Amadeus sent an express courier to his envoy in Berlin, the Marquis de Rosignan, telling him to demand an audience with Fritz and request the recall of Keith--that I knew--and Rosignan refused! Because Rosignan didn't want to inconvenience Fritz. He had gone native (adopted a "Fritzische Gesinnung"), so much so that Victor Amadeus had been planning to recall him for a while.
So what I'm getting from a quick skim of 1927 guy is: Rosignan was a Fritz admirer, VA didn't like it, Fritz did; VA was laying the groundwork to recall Rosignan by recalling his Portuguese envoy with the intent of redeploying him to Berlin; Fritz was unhappy about that and demanded to know why and couldn't get a better answer than "Cuz"; then Karl von Keith did his thing; Rosignan was instructed to request his recall; Rosignan refused; VA then had to wait 3 further months to recall Rosignan because the mere presence of a Fritzisch envoy in Berlin acted as an antidote to the deteriorating relations between the two states after Karl's shenanigans; Rosignan finally got recalled and replaced.
Wow. Okay. I really need to go to bed. But envoy drama!
What I find most amazing is that Rosignan went this much native, which makes him pretty unique among envoys (at least during Fritz' own reign; and even if we extend it to FW's era, for Suhm for all his Fritz affection still gave Brühl correct advice, which was not favorable to Prussia, while still being envoy). I mean, Mitchell got pretty fannish about Fritz early on while campaigning with him and tried his best to maintain those subsidies during the 7 Years War, but his fannishness didn't exclude some critique at all times (whether wrongly, as when he is afraid Fritz still writing to Voltaire might lead to Fritz revealing military secrets, or correctly, as when he's appalled at the treatment of Dresden by Fritz later in the war), and when attempts to call him back were made mid war, he didn't outright refuse but played it cunningly and let Fritz request his continued presence.
As for the other envoys:
Hanbury-Williams: Some of my invective about Fritz was deemed unprintable in the 1920s.
Valory: Whereas I got reprinted a lot in my Fritz estimations, especially the part where I say he is charming until he has secured you and then doesn't bother anymore. But then, he did write me and my secretary into his wannabe satiric epic. As for my priorities, vive la France, obviously!
Marquis de la Puebla: I was the Austrian envoy. Fritz actually behaved pretty reasonably towards me, all things considered, including the fact Fredersdorf and he read my mail, but yeah, at no point was I in danger of getting fannish about him. If I was, MT would have replaced me in a heartbeat.
Two mitigating factors for Rosignan: one, this is 1778, when Fritzmania is at its peak, Fritz is a celebrity for having won the Seven Years' War, people are traveling from all over Europe to see him. Two, Sardinia is a much more minor state, likely to be looking *up* to Prussia, rather than jockeying for position with it.
Do we have any data points on Stratemann? He came from a less powerful state and had strong fannish tendencies (FWmania?), but I don't know if they would have extended to refusing a command from back home.
As far as I recall Stratemann was, in fact, Prussian, or rather, Brandenburgian by birth, and got the Brunswick envoy job by appointment. (Not unusual - Manteuffel was also Prussian by birth only headed towards Saxony in search of a job when as a young man he supposedly made an ill advised joke about F1's possible not quite mistress.
Anyway, Stratemann being Prussian explains why he's generally impressed and in awe of FW and putting a Disney spin on him.
Ahhh, I had forgotten that! Thank you for the reminder, that makes a lot of sense.
Interestingly, I just found a series of letters from Rosignan complaining about his health, starting in October 1777, so that may have been a factor in his recall as well:
Since we parted I have been very unfortunate. I have neither taken the water nor the baths at ---- in Bohemia. I had to throw myself on a bed, being taken with a phlegmonous erysipelas; on account of which I had to undergo an operation which has detained me until now. As I came to this place only in the beginning of the month, I hoped it would be all over when I arrived, but my legs are still in a bad way, and I do not go out.
He's apparently very pro-United States, writing to a Yankee tax dodger envoy to Europe, and sending his compliments to Franklin, whom he has met and remembers fondly. This is interesting, because in one of the letters from Poyntz that I browsed, British Poyntz was outraged by an attempted mutiny in the army of Sardinia making seditious noises about liberty! (I may be misremembering the details, but I remember thinking, oh, hey, it's 1778.)
Also, Rosignan seems to be into science as well; he's talking about the supposed invention of the telescope, and his own, semi-successful attempts to create his own electrophon at home. Interesting. I wonder what opinions he held about fixed air. :P
Well, while Fritz himself wasn't too fond of "Canadians", and of course the Württemberg and Hesse money wasting princes sold entire regiments to the Brits to get their hands on more cash, I believe general feeling in Prussia and other German states as well as in other European states ran in sympathy with the Yankee tax dodgers. And let's not forget Steuben is over there drilling the army. So Rosignan probably heard a lot of pro Revolutiuonaries chatter in the Berlin salons. (When did Lafayette visit and rave about Fritz' eyes and Heinrich's company again?)
(Even in the UK, feelings were mixed. If Dr. Johnson was Team Taxation No Tyranny, Boswell was Team Rebels.)
BTW, at a guess, he means Karlsbad in Bohemia. Which was the most popular spa there.
So Rosignan probably heard a lot of pro Revolutiuonaries chatter in the Berlin salons.
True! I was wondering how much pro-American sentiment there was in Sardinia, since I don't think Franklin came to Berlin while Rosignan was there. So they must have met somewhere else, prior to Rosignan coming to Berlin. Maybe England?. But maybe Rosignan made a detour to France during his Prussian stay.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 05:40 am (UTC)Or at least, I found whatever material is in the Prussian archives on this subject; it may just be correspondence about him and not his own words. Anyway, according to 1927 guy, it supposedly contains an eyewitness account of the incident that does not shed any additional light on wtf happened.
Will place an order with the Prussian archive tomorrow!
I also found the French account that the 1927 guy referred to digitized online. Very short, not sure it has anything new to add, but will translate and report in tomorrow.
Also, weird. It looks from the Prussian archive catalogue like Fritz didn't wait 2 years to send an envoy to Turin, he sent a Count Podewils (son of the famous minister, it looks like) already in 1778, but recalled him in 1780. That's quick!
Ahh, reading further, 1927 guy says Podewils fell victim to some scheming and, being financially independent, left the service voluntarily and withdrew to live on his estate.
Oh, wow, so Victor Amadeus sent an express courier to his envoy in Berlin, the Marquis de Rosignan, telling him to demand an audience with Fritz and request the recall of Keith--that I knew--and Rosignan refused! Because Rosignan didn't want to inconvenience Fritz. He had gone native (adopted a "Fritzische Gesinnung"), so much so that Victor Amadeus had been planning to recall him for a while.
So what I'm getting from a quick skim of 1927 guy is: Rosignan was a Fritz admirer, VA didn't like it, Fritz did; VA was laying the groundwork to recall Rosignan by recalling his Portuguese envoy with the intent of redeploying him to Berlin; Fritz was unhappy about that and demanded to know why and couldn't get a better answer than "Cuz"; then Karl von Keith did his thing; Rosignan was instructed to request his recall; Rosignan refused; VA then had to wait 3 further months to recall Rosignan because the mere presence of a Fritzisch envoy in Berlin acted as an antidote to the deteriorating relations between the two states after Karl's shenanigans; Rosignan finally got recalled and replaced.
Wow. Okay. I really need to go to bed. But envoy drama!
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 11:03 am (UTC)As for the other envoys:
Hanbury-Williams: Some of my invective about Fritz was deemed unprintable in the 1920s.
Valory: Whereas I got reprinted a lot in my Fritz estimations, especially the part where I say he is charming until he has secured you and then doesn't bother anymore. But then, he did write me and my secretary into his wannabe satiric epic. As for my priorities, vive la France, obviously!
Marquis de la Puebla: I was the Austrian envoy. Fritz actually behaved pretty reasonably towards me, all things considered, including the fact Fredersdorf and he read my mail, but yeah, at no point was I in danger of getting fannish about him. If I was, MT would have replaced me in a heartbeat.
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 01:33 pm (UTC)Do we have any data points on Stratemann? He came from a less powerful state and had strong fannish tendencies (FWmania?), but I don't know if they would have extended to refusing a command from back home.
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 01:43 pm (UTC)Anyway, Stratemann being Prussian explains why he's generally impressed and in awe of FW and putting a Disney spin on him.
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 02:01 pm (UTC)Interestingly, I just found a series of letters from Rosignan complaining about his health, starting in October 1777, so that may have been a factor in his recall as well:
Since we parted I have been very unfortunate. I have neither taken the water nor the baths at ---- in Bohemia. I had to throw myself on a bed, being taken with a phlegmonous erysipelas; on account of which I had to undergo an operation which has detained me until now. As I came to this place only in the beginning of the month, I hoped it would be all over when I arrived, but my legs are still in a bad way, and I do not go out.
He's apparently very pro-United States, writing to a Yankee tax dodger envoy to Europe, and sending his compliments to Franklin, whom he has met and remembers fondly. This is interesting, because in one of the letters from Poyntz that I browsed, British Poyntz was outraged by an attempted mutiny in the army of Sardinia making seditious noises about liberty! (I may be misremembering the details, but I remember thinking, oh, hey, it's 1778.)
Also, Rosignan seems to be into science as well; he's talking about the supposed invention of the telescope, and his own, semi-successful attempts to create his own electrophon at home. Interesting. I wonder what opinions he held about fixed air. :P
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 02:08 pm (UTC)(Even in the UK, feelings were mixed. If Dr. Johnson was Team Taxation No Tyranny, Boswell was Team Rebels.)
BTW, at a guess, he means Karlsbad in Bohemia. Which was the most popular spa there.
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-01 06:14 pm (UTC)So Rosignan probably heard a lot of pro Revolutiuonaries chatter in the Berlin salons.
True! I was wondering how much pro-American sentiment there was in Sardinia, since I don't think Franklin came to Berlin while Rosignan was there. So they must have met somewhere else, prior to Rosignan coming to Berlin. Maybe England?. But maybe Rosignan made a detour to France during his Prussian stay.
Re: A duel for science...or insanity??
Date: 2025-06-08 10:33 pm (UTC)And envoy drama, wow!