Purely Google translated, no cleanup, and no commentary because it's my bedtime, but here you go. This is from the Gazzetta Letteraria Torino, 1882. I will look for more sources tomorrow, I have leads! I may also try to clean this translation up, but you should get the gist for now:
Victor Amadeus III was finally given what his father and grandfather had never been allowed by political conditions, both his own and European, to do: to reduce to official diplomatic relations the relations of good friendship that had existed for centuries between the two houses of Savoy and Brandenburg, which until then had never dealt with their mutual interests except indirectly and, I might say, on the sly. Victor Amadeus's sympathies and enthusiastic admiration for the great Frederick of Prussia had been felt since he was still only Duke of Savoy, and they later sometimes exposed him to ridicule, when, having succeeded his father on the throne, at the beginning of 1773, he pushed them too far in his attempt to model himself and his things on the favorite prototypical hero. It is therefore not surprising that, as soon as he was able to dispose of the sum of things, he immediately took up an entrance at the Court of Berlin for regular diplomatic correspondence.
This was, in any case, an act of good politics after the Treaty of Versailles of 1758 had transformed France and Austria, from bitter rivals, which they had always been, into two fervent allies, and, at the same time, also an act of courage and independence, which, in Paris and Vienna, might have been received with some suspicion in a moment of bad humor. And indeed, against such a danger he did not fail to take precautions at the two Courts through his ambassadors resident there: "The King (the minister wrote on the affairs of Count De Viry in Paris) instructs you to confide this to the ministers of His Most Christian Majesty, and to assure them that he has no other object in view in this dispatch of ministers than that of a simple friendly communication between him and His Prussian Majesty, without it ever being able to influence in any way his invariable system of good understanding with the other Courts."
The matter, however, passed without incident; and, on the other hand, the King of Prussia, willingly accepting the proposal made to him, appointed as his first representative in Turin the Baron de Keit, his Chamberlain, who arrived there, leaving in the year 1774, announced there by the Prussian minister with this, in truth, too laconic description: "Il est encore jeune; il a des talents." As to talents, I could not say whether and to what extent he was truly endowed; but since King Frederick chose him to inaugurate that diplomatic correspondence, which he had shown himself to hold in no small regard, the presumption is undoubtedly in his favor. Except that, in a youthful state, he quickly gave evidence that he brought with him not a few of the defects inherent in it, which wasted a great part of the talents he could have had, and were on more than one occasion close to jeopardizing the good relations and mutual dispositions of the two Courts. The most serious of all was the incident, the main subject of this writing, which, in 1778, gave rise to the bizarre, choleric and impetuous character of the Prussian ambassador, and which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry.
Here is how Count Perrone, then Minister of Foreign Affairs, reported the event to Count Scarnafigi, who had been transferred from the embassy in Vienna to that in Paris, on the 24th of 1778:
"Yesterday evening, a rather serious incident occurred at the home of the Marquis d'Agliè, where there was a good company, which resulted from Baron Keith, the envoy special of His Majesty the King of Prussia, who picked a quarrel and struck with his hand and sword the Chevalier Fresia d'Oglianico, captain in the King's Dragoon Regiment, without this officer having given him the slightest reason for doing so either at the very moment it happened or beforehand." The king, informed, the fate of the matter, well knowing that Fresia was not his only fear of bearing him in time for the grave affront, "had the horse put on the spot (continued on the 28th and his companions) Fresia under arrest with a sentry at his door and gave the other arrangements necessary for the safety of Mr. Keith's person, and to prevent the offended or any other person from failing in the consideration due to the character with which this minister is invested. As the Major of the city, who received orders to give these arrangements, found himself in some sort of liaison with Mr. Keith, he was at the same time instructed to inform this minister. I enclose here a copy of this Major's report, by which you will see that Mr. Keith himself attributes his outburst to a moment of delirium, of which he admits to having had other fits and it appears in fact that one could hardly give other reasons... His Majesty informed him through the master of ceremonies to refrain from appearing at court... And informed the King of Prussia of everything that had just happened: for this purpose a cabinet courier was sent to Mr. the Marquis of Rosignan to request the recall of Mr. Keith.>>>
But, if this saved diplomatic conveniences, it was however far from satisfying military and chivalric honor not only with regard to the offended, but also with regard to the offender himself, whose impunity could be attributed first to the impotence to which he had been reduced by the precautions taken by the Sardinian King, and subsequently to his departure for Milan. Now this thought was too much for Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward, so in order to offer himself, and at the same time, his adversary the means of re-establishing their respective reputations in the face of the world, he seized upon an expedient, which could not fail in its intent, if in fact the knight Fresia had been the gentleman he supposed and in fact was: that is, after leaving the royal states, to write various letters to his friends in Turin, in which among other things he warned them that, if anyone had anything to tell him, he would be, on such a day in Brescia, on such a day in Bologna, on such a day in Mantua, etc. The friends, who well understood that this, in the mind of the writer, was an indirect way of making Fresia aware of the appointment that he was assigning him in the indicated cities to give him that satisfaction of honor to which he was entitled, were not slow in making the knight aware of the contents of the letters, nor was he deaf to the invitation, nor did he delay in taking advantage of it; for on the 9th of March 1778, he quietly left Turin, heading towards Mantua, the last post indicated to him. "The king (Perrone wrote again) was not informed of his departure three days later, and he apprised it with great satisfaction, but he was no longer in time to rush to his destination." Despite the statement of the minister, perhaps obliged by his office to use this language, I cannot persuade myself that the King felt all the displeasure from that escapade that he alleged, although perhaps he had to show it, because it is not to be believed that the King did not wish that an officer of his army, so gravely insulted, should try, with the only means imposed on him by public opinion, to remove that stain from his face. Everything therefore leads us to believe that he willingly turned a blind eye to Fresia's actions to let him run to his fate. And Fresia ran straight to meet him in Mantua. Having arrived there, the Mantuan correspondent (who will be named later) says that he sent the Baron a note of challenge in French, which, after the duel, he generously returned to the officer, a note which he gives translated into Italian on a copy which circulated through the city, in the following terms: "My long stay in the citadel, your hasty departure from Turin and the precautions I had to take to remove myself from the sight of my superiors, are the reason why I have not been able to find you before now. Tomorrow morning, therefore, at ten o'clock, I will expect you outside the gate which leads to Parma, to fight you with my sword. I have found you by experience to be a man of transport and fiery spirit, and I flatter myself that this time I will not find you a coward for refusing the challenge, nor a traitor for carrying any other weapon than the sword. We will fight as befits our condition, and your blood or mine will wash away that stain you have made a short time ago on my name. I have the honor to be with those sentiments that are due to you.
Humble. devoted servant Cav. IGNAZIO FRESIA, baron of OGLIANICO Captain of cavalry of S. M. Sarda. »
The story of Perrone wrote informing him of the affair on March 21: "He (Fresia) found him on the 11th of this month in Mantua; Mr. Keith received him very politely, thanked him for the trouble he had taken and for putting him in a position to give him satisfaction for his anger towards him: then they fought sword in hand. The combat passed off very honorably and ended because the sword of the knight Fresia broke; after which they made peace. Mr. Keith received three wounds to the body, only one of which entered the cavity, but it is not believed to be dangerous. The knight Fresia received four, three of which to the right arm and one to the left hand while trying to disarm his opponent. According to the latest letters, this officer is in Verona with Mr. Marquis Maffei, formerly colonel of his regiment."
The incident caused quite a stir both inside and outside Italy, both because of the exceptional position of one of the contending parties and because of the entirely honourable way in which the other party was able to extract itself from a very difficult and delicate affair. From Mantua, various reports of the duel, more or less consistent and more or less public, were immediately distributed throughout Europe, which, collected by the Sardinian ministers abroad, were gradually transmitted to the Court of Turin. I will mention here only one, sent by the knight Camillo Arrigoni of Mantua, on 22 March, that is to say, the very day of the duel, to the knight Nicola Bonacorsi of Rome, who communicated it to Count Graneri, Sardinian ambassador to the Holy See: « I return to trouble you again with my characters to write about a sensational event that occurred here this morning between Baron Keith, minister of the King of Prussia, and Mr. Ogliani, an officer of the King of Sardinia, who came to Mantua yesterday expressly to seek an account of the slap he received from the other a short time ago in Turin, which has caused such a stir in Italy. These two gentlemen went out to a place about three gunshots away from the gate of the city called the Té, and there they fought with swords. Both received many wounds, which however were not mortal, but the officer was mistreated much more than the other. The latter broke his sword in the fight, and was informed of this by the minister, who said that he did not expect any further satisfaction (!), and so the duel ended. On their return to the city, the soldiers stopped them, and took the minister to the high guard and the officer to his home. The commander, as soon as he was informed of the fact, gave orders that they be set free and that their swords be returned to him, and furthermore he made them understand that he advised them not to leave their respective homes. »
In his haste to inform his friend of the event, Arrigoni had overlooked some inaccuracies and details, which he hastened to correct and add in the following terms four days later: « The Piedmontese officer left here on the evening of the same day the duel took place, and went to Verona, where he is at present. His wounds were almost all on the right arm, and as in the act of combat, he lost a lot of blood and felt very weak, so he believed he was worse than he really was. Baron Keith is here, and is being treated by three surgeons. He has many wounds on his chest which are light, and one on the seventh rib which at first gave much cause for fear, but now he is almost certain of recovery. This Government has received orders from Milan to make all imaginable distinctions against him, and in fact carriages cannot pass where he lives, and a consultation has been expressly held to give a separate account of his status to the Court. » So much so that whoever has the advantage of being chamberlain and minister of a Frederick II of Prussia, can at his pleasure do extravagances and be insolent that he will never lack for this neither consideration, nor honors, nor, I am about to say, flattery. In the meantime, according to the impartial report referred to above, which substantially agrees with the outcome of the duel, with that also cited by the Sardinian minister, there can be no doubt that Keith had the worst of it, and that therefore according to the ideas current in the subject matter, the Piedmontese officer, not only morally but also materially, has fully avenged the honor of both his own family, as well as of the Sardinian army, in which he occupied a rather distinguished position. It is therefore not surprising that in Turin in particular, as contemporary memoirs note, the outcome of the duel was heard not only with satisfaction, but also with applause in all ranks of the citizenry, including the Court itself, as the correspondence with its representatives abroad, concerning the event, lets enough filter through even amidst that dignified impassivity in which they pretend to envelop themselves.
Well, this version does illustrate the theory that most 18th century duels weren't fought with lethal intention but to "satisfy honour"; that Fresia chooses the sword (and explicitly refuses any other weapon) fits with that, since if you shoot at each other, there's no way of excluding serious wounding at the least and death otherwise if you actually aim, and if you shoot in the air, then "honour" will not be satisfied by a wound. Whereas presumably noblemen who had fencing lessons for years are able to wound without lethal intention.
(BTW, if someone who will probably be me ever writes that AU where G2 and FW do duel each other, which weapon will these two pick? I mean, when they were boys, they fenced, but as adults around forty, with FW having to spend some of the year in a wheelchair already, whereas G2 was somewhat fitter, I could see someone on the Prussian side making the case for pistols.
(Well, not anyone who wants Fritz to become King in 1729, evidently.)
This still leaves us in the dark as to what was actually said (so my own version still could be canon!), but I am intrigued that Karl Keith, after the initial offense, isn't described that negatively in this Italian source. I mean:
r Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward
And him being considerate enough to leave possible duel assignment letters all over the towns and places. Which btw would also argue that he had to have self control most of the time at least.
which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money, but considering these two aren't related and arguing about an inheritance, that's out.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
that AU where G2 and FW do duel each other, which weapon will these two pick?
It probably depends on who issues the challenge, as I believe the other party gets to choose the weapons? FW might go for pistols, G2 for swords, for the reasons you mention.
I am intrigued that Karl Keith, after the initial offense, isn't described that negatively in this Italian source.
I noticed that too!
And him being considerate enough to leave possible duel assignment letters all over the towns and places. Which btw would also argue that he had to have self control most of the time at least.
Yeah, the argument everyone seems to be making is that he has random fits of madness, not that he's in a permanent G3-like state (someone would have noticed). So I guess you could make a story where he came to, was like, "WTF did I just do?" and decided he needed to make amends.
And that would make sense of the "honor required me to" if it's just referring to the formal duel: honor *would* require him to issue a duel challenge after he had randomly beaten this guy up at a salon.
I can't wait to see what the Prussian archives say; I mostly want to see if they confirm Fritz believing in the "fits of madness" claim we're seeing.
Wow, this whole story keeps getting more elaborate! Also, I can't believe *both* the British archives and the Turin archives have websites that are down, at a time like this. At least I have hope that the former will be restored in a timely manner.
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money
I had the exact same thought! This is clearly how the 19th century cleaned stories up to be more socially acceptable.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
Yeah, the argument everyone seems to be making is that he has random fits of madness, not that he's in a permanent G3-like state (someone would have noticed). So I guess you could make a story where he came to, was like, "WTF did I just do?" and decided he needed to make amends.
And that would make sense of the "honor required me to" if it's just referring to the formal duel: honor *would* require him to issue a duel challenge after he had randomly beaten this guy up at a salon.
Another Italian variant (1892) has just emerged that would support this interpretation: it has Karl writing to the commandant of the city, "Enfin que voulez-vous, que je vous dise? J'avoue que j'ai faite une folie, j'ai eu un délire, cela m'arrive quelque fois. Mais au bout du compte je suis gentilhomme, le chevalier Fresia l'est aussi, je lui donnerai satisfaction."
Well, what do you want me to tell you? I admit I did something crazy, I had a delusion, it happens to me sometimes. But at the end of the day, I am a gentleman, and so is Chevalier Fresia; I will give him satisfaction.
(Now that I have the right search terms, Google Books is being very generous in delivering up results about this incident.)
In which case, if Karl really has manic episodes, I wouldn't blame Fritz for being somewhat sore on the Knyphausen family, if they were the ones suggesting Karl for the job, because that is NOT what you expect from a diplomat.
Lehndorff: I would have never had a manic episode! Would have loved to have been an envoy! Instead....
In which case, if Karl really has manic episodes, I wouldn't blame Fritz for being somewhat sore on the Knyphausen family, if they were the ones suggesting Karl for the job, because that is NOT what you expect from a diplomat.
Indeed. Hertzberg (married to one of the Knyphausen sisters) would have been the one to recommend him, but the whole family would have had to cover up the episodes.
Also, remember when Hertzberg tried to get Karl and his still-living brother Friedrich posted as diplomatic secretaries to Paris and Vienna when they were straight out of university, and Fritz said he had no use for children? He was more right than he knew, when it came to Karl!
ETA: Meant to add, it's looking more and more like maybe the random salon assault happened (although maybe with the addition of Chevalier Fresia having said something prior), but I'm waiting to see what the Prussian archives say. Unfortunately, though I sent off the request today, that usually takes 1-2 months, so we'll have to wait a while before we find out.
Lehndorff: I would have never had a manic episode! Would have loved to have been an envoy! Instead....
that Fresia chooses the sword (and explicitly refuses any other weapon) fits with that, since if you shoot at each other, there's no way of excluding serious wounding at the least and death otherwise if you actually aim, and if you shoot in the air, then "honour" will not be satisfied by a wound. Whereas presumably noblemen who had fencing lessons for years are able to wound without lethal intention.
I never thought of that, that makes a lot of sense.
Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward
Hmm, yeah!
which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money, but considering these two aren't related and arguing about an inheritance, that's out.
Ooh. That is very interesting.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
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timeasmymeasure
Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-01 04:22 am (UTC)Victor Amadeus III was finally given what his father and grandfather had never been allowed by political conditions, both his own and European, to do: to reduce to official diplomatic relations the relations of good friendship that had existed for centuries between the two houses of Savoy and Brandenburg, which until then had never dealt with their mutual interests except indirectly and, I might say, on the sly. Victor Amadeus's sympathies and enthusiastic admiration for the great Frederick of Prussia had been felt since he was still only Duke of Savoy, and they later sometimes exposed him to ridicule, when, having succeeded his father on the throne, at the beginning of 1773, he pushed them too far in his attempt to model himself and his things on the favorite prototypical hero. It is therefore not surprising that, as soon as he was able to dispose of the sum of things, he immediately took up an entrance at the Court of Berlin for regular diplomatic correspondence.
This was, in any case, an act of good politics after the Treaty of Versailles of 1758 had transformed France and Austria, from bitter rivals, which they had always been, into two fervent allies, and, at the same time, also an act of courage and independence, which, in Paris and Vienna, might have been received with some suspicion in a moment of bad humor. And indeed, against such a danger he did not fail to take precautions at the two Courts through his ambassadors resident there: "The King (the minister wrote on the affairs of Count De Viry in Paris) instructs you to confide this to the ministers of His Most Christian Majesty, and to assure them that he has no other object in view in this dispatch of ministers than that of a simple friendly communication between him and His Prussian Majesty, without it ever being able to influence in any way his invariable system of good understanding with the other Courts."
The matter, however, passed without incident; and, on the other hand, the King of Prussia, willingly accepting the proposal made to him, appointed as his first representative in Turin the Baron de Keit, his Chamberlain, who arrived there, leaving in the year 1774, announced there by the Prussian minister with this, in truth, too laconic description: "Il est encore jeune; il a des talents." As to talents, I could not say whether and to what extent he was truly endowed; but since King Frederick chose him to inaugurate that diplomatic correspondence, which he had shown himself to hold in no small regard, the presumption is undoubtedly in his favor. Except that, in a youthful state, he quickly gave evidence that he brought with him not a few of the defects inherent in it, which wasted a great part of the talents he could have had, and were on more than one occasion close to jeopardizing the good relations and mutual dispositions of the two Courts. The most serious of all was the incident, the main subject of this writing, which, in 1778, gave rise to the bizarre, choleric and impetuous character of the Prussian ambassador, and which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry.
Here is how Count Perrone, then Minister of Foreign Affairs, reported the event to Count Scarnafigi, who had been transferred from the embassy in Vienna to that in Paris, on the 24th of 1778:
"Yesterday evening, a rather serious incident occurred at the home of the Marquis d'Agliè, where there was a good company, which resulted from Baron Keith, the envoy special of His Majesty the King of Prussia, who picked a quarrel and struck with his hand and sword the Chevalier Fresia d'Oglianico, captain in the King's Dragoon Regiment, without this officer having given him the slightest reason for doing so either at the very moment it happened or beforehand." The king, informed, the fate of the matter, well knowing that Fresia was not his only fear of bearing him in time for the grave affront, "had the horse put on the spot (continued on the 28th and his companions) Fresia under arrest with a sentry at his door and gave the other arrangements necessary for the safety of Mr. Keith's person, and to prevent the offended or any other person from failing in the consideration due to the character with which this minister is invested. As the Major of the city, who received orders to give these arrangements, found himself in some sort of liaison with Mr. Keith, he was at the same time instructed to inform this minister. I enclose here a copy of this Major's report, by which you will see that Mr. Keith himself attributes his outburst to a moment of delirium, of which he admits to having had other fits and it appears in fact that one could hardly give other reasons... His Majesty informed him through the master of ceremonies to refrain from appearing at court... And informed the King of Prussia of everything that had just happened: for this purpose a cabinet courier was sent to Mr. the Marquis of Rosignan to request the recall of Mr. Keith.>>>
But, if this saved diplomatic conveniences, it was however far from satisfying military and chivalric honor not only with regard to the offended, but also with regard to the offender himself, whose impunity could be attributed first to the impotence to which he had been reduced by the precautions taken by the Sardinian King, and subsequently to his departure for Milan. Now this thought was too much for Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward, so in order to offer himself, and at the same time, his adversary the means of re-establishing their respective reputations in the face of the world, he seized upon an expedient, which could not fail in its intent, if in fact the knight Fresia had been the gentleman he supposed and in fact was: that is, after leaving the royal states, to write various letters to his friends in Turin, in which among other things he warned them that, if anyone had anything to tell him, he would be, on such a day in Brescia, on such a day in Bologna, on such a day in Mantua, etc. The friends, who well understood that this, in the mind of the writer, was an indirect way of making Fresia aware of the appointment that he was assigning him in the indicated cities to give him that satisfaction of honor to which he was entitled, were not slow in making the knight aware of the contents of the letters, nor was he deaf to the invitation, nor did he delay in taking advantage of it; for on the 9th of March 1778, he quietly left Turin, heading towards Mantua, the last post indicated to him. "The king (Perrone wrote again) was not informed of his departure three days later, and he apprised it with great satisfaction, but he was no longer in time to rush to his destination." Despite the statement of the minister, perhaps obliged by his office to use this language, I cannot persuade myself that the King felt all the displeasure from that escapade that he alleged, although perhaps he had to show it, because it is not to be believed that the King did not wish that an officer of his army, so gravely insulted, should try, with the only means imposed on him by public opinion, to remove that stain from his face. Everything therefore leads us to believe that he willingly turned a blind eye to Fresia's actions to let him run to his fate. And Fresia ran straight to meet him in Mantua. Having arrived there, the Mantuan correspondent (who will be named later) says that he sent the Baron a note of challenge in French, which, after the duel, he generously returned to the officer, a note which he gives translated into Italian on a copy which circulated through the city, in the following terms: "My long stay in the citadel, your hasty departure from Turin and the precautions I had to take to remove myself from the sight of my superiors, are the reason why I have not been able to find you before now. Tomorrow morning, therefore, at ten o'clock, I will expect you outside the gate which leads to Parma, to fight you with my sword. I have found you by experience to be a man of transport and fiery spirit, and I flatter myself that this time I will not find you a coward for refusing the challenge, nor a traitor for carrying any other weapon than the sword. We will fight as befits our condition, and your blood or mine will wash away that stain you have made a short time ago on my name. I have the honor to be with those sentiments that are due to you.
Humble. devoted servant
Cav. IGNAZIO FRESIA, baron of OGLIANICO
Captain of cavalry of S. M. Sarda. »
The story of Perrone wrote informing him of the affair on March 21: "He (Fresia) found him on the 11th of this month in Mantua; Mr. Keith received him very politely, thanked him for the trouble he had taken and for putting him in a position to give him satisfaction for his anger towards him: then they fought sword in hand. The combat passed off very honorably and ended because the sword of the knight Fresia broke; after which they made peace. Mr. Keith received three wounds to the body, only one of which entered the cavity, but it is not believed to be dangerous. The knight Fresia received four, three of which to the right arm and one to the left hand while trying to disarm his opponent. According to the latest letters, this officer is in Verona with Mr. Marquis Maffei, formerly colonel of his regiment."
The incident caused quite a stir both inside and outside Italy, both because of the exceptional position of one of the contending parties and because of the entirely honourable way in which the other party was able to extract itself from a very difficult and delicate affair. From Mantua, various reports of the duel, more or less consistent and more or less public, were immediately distributed throughout Europe, which, collected by the Sardinian ministers abroad, were gradually transmitted to the Court of Turin. I will mention here only one, sent by the knight Camillo Arrigoni of Mantua, on 22 March, that is to say, the very day of the duel, to the knight Nicola Bonacorsi of Rome, who communicated it to Count Graneri, Sardinian ambassador to the Holy See: « I return to trouble you again with my characters to write about a sensational event that occurred here this morning between Baron Keith, minister of the King of Prussia, and Mr. Ogliani, an officer of the King of Sardinia, who came to Mantua yesterday expressly to seek an account of the slap he received from the other a short time ago in Turin, which has caused such a stir in Italy. These two gentlemen went out to a place about three gunshots away from the gate of the city called the Té, and there they fought with swords. Both received many wounds, which however were not mortal, but the officer was mistreated much more than the other. The latter broke his sword in the fight, and was informed of this by the minister, who said that he did not expect any further satisfaction (!), and so the duel ended. On their return to the city, the soldiers stopped them, and took the minister to the high guard and the officer to his home. The commander, as soon as he was informed of the fact, gave orders that they be set free and that their swords be returned to him, and furthermore he made them understand that he advised them not to leave their respective homes. »
In his haste to inform his friend of the event, Arrigoni had overlooked some inaccuracies and details, which he hastened to correct and add in the following terms four days later: « The Piedmontese officer left here on the evening of the same day the duel took place, and went to Verona, where he is at present. His wounds were almost all on the right arm, and as in the act of combat, he lost a lot of blood and felt very weak, so he believed he was worse than he really was. Baron Keith is here, and is being treated by three surgeons. He has many wounds on his chest which are light, and one on the seventh rib which at first gave much cause for fear, but now he is almost certain of recovery. This Government has received orders from Milan to make all imaginable distinctions against him, and in fact carriages cannot pass where he lives, and a consultation has been expressly held to give a separate account of his status to the Court. » So much so that whoever has the advantage of being chamberlain and minister of a Frederick II of Prussia, can at his pleasure do extravagances and be insolent that he will never lack for this neither consideration, nor honors, nor, I am about to say, flattery. In the meantime, according to the impartial report referred to above, which substantially agrees with the outcome of the duel, with that also cited by the Sardinian minister, there can be no doubt that Keith had the worst of it, and that therefore according to the ideas current in the subject matter, the Piedmontese officer, not only morally but also materially, has fully avenged the honor of both his own family, as well as of the Sardinian army, in which he occupied a rather distinguished position. It is therefore not surprising that in Turin in particular, as contemporary memoirs note, the outcome of the duel was heard not only with satisfaction, but also with applause in all ranks of the citizenry, including the Court itself, as the correspondence with its representatives abroad, concerning the event, lets enough filter through even amidst that dignified impassivity in which they pretend to envelop themselves.
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-01 11:33 am (UTC)(BTW, if someone who will probably be me ever writes that AU where G2 and FW do duel each other, which weapon will these two pick? I mean, when they were boys, they fenced, but as adults around forty, with FW having to spend some of the year in a wheelchair already, whereas G2 was somewhat fitter, I could see someone on the Prussian side making the case for pistols.
(Well, not anyone who wants Fritz to become King in 1729, evidently.)
This still leaves us in the dark as to what was actually said (so my own version still could be canon!), but I am intrigued that Karl Keith, after the initial offense, isn't described that negatively in this Italian source. I mean:
r Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward
And him being considerate enough to leave possible duel assignment letters all over the towns and places. Which btw would also argue that he had to have self control most of the time at least.
which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money, but considering these two aren't related and arguing about an inheritance, that's out.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-01 01:28 pm (UTC)It probably depends on who issues the challenge, as I believe the other party gets to choose the weapons? FW might go for pistols, G2 for swords, for the reasons you mention.
I am intrigued that Karl Keith, after the initial offense, isn't described that negatively in this Italian source.
I noticed that too!
And him being considerate enough to leave possible duel assignment letters all over the towns and places. Which btw would also argue that he had to have self control most of the time at least.
Yeah, the argument everyone seems to be making is that he has random fits of madness, not that he's in a permanent G3-like state (someone would have noticed). So I guess you could make a story where he came to, was like, "WTF did I just do?" and decided he needed to make amends.
And that would make sense of the "honor required me to" if it's just referring to the formal duel: honor *would* require him to issue a duel challenge after he had randomly beaten this guy up at a salon.
I can't wait to see what the Prussian archives say; I mostly want to see if they confirm Fritz believing in the "fits of madness" claim we're seeing.
Wow, this whole story keeps getting more elaborate! Also, I can't believe *both* the British archives and the Turin archives have websites that are down, at a time like this. At least I have hope that the former will be restored in a timely manner.
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money
I had the exact same thought! This is clearly how the 19th century cleaned stories up to be more socially acceptable.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
Truly an excellent theory. :)
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-01 01:46 pm (UTC)And that would make sense of the "honor required me to" if it's just referring to the formal duel: honor *would* require him to issue a duel challenge after he had randomly beaten this guy up at a salon.
Another Italian variant (1892) has just emerged that would support this interpretation: it has Karl writing to the commandant of the city, "Enfin que voulez-vous, que je vous dise? J'avoue que j'ai faite une folie, j'ai eu un délire, cela m'arrive quelque fois. Mais au bout du compte je suis gentilhomme, le chevalier Fresia l'est aussi, je lui donnerai satisfaction."
Well, what do you want me to tell you? I admit I did something crazy, I had a delusion, it happens to me sometimes. But at the end of the day, I am a gentleman, and so is Chevalier Fresia; I will give him satisfaction.
(Now that I have the right search terms, Google Books is being very generous in delivering up results about this incident.)
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-01 02:10 pm (UTC)Lehndorff: I would have never had a manic episode! Would have loved to have been an envoy! Instead....
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-01 06:17 pm (UTC)Indeed. Hertzberg (married to one of the Knyphausen sisters) would have been the one to recommend him, but the whole family would have had to cover up the episodes.
Also, remember when Hertzberg tried to get Karl and his still-living brother Friedrich posted as diplomatic secretaries to Paris and Vienna when they were straight out of university, and Fritz said he had no use for children? He was more right than he knew, when it came to Karl!
ETA: Meant to add, it's looking more and more like maybe the random salon assault happened (although maybe with the addition of Chevalier Fresia having said something prior), but I'm waiting to see what the Prussian archives say. Unfortunately, though I sent off the request today, that usually takes 1-2 months, so we'll have to wait a while before we find out.
Lehndorff: I would have never had a manic episode! Would have loved to have been an envoy! Instead....
Lol. There, there, Lehndorff.
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-08 10:30 pm (UTC)that Fresia chooses the sword (and explicitly refuses any other weapon) fits with that, since if you shoot at each other, there's no way of excluding serious wounding at the least and death otherwise if you actually aim, and if you shoot in the air, then "honour" will not be satisfied by a wound. Whereas presumably noblemen who had fencing lessons for years are able to wound without lethal intention.
I never thought of that, that makes a lot of sense.
Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward
Hmm, yeah!
which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money, but considering these two aren't related and arguing about an inheritance, that's out.
Ooh. That is very interesting.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
Ha! I mean, it's a great theory!