Well, this version does illustrate the theory that most 18th century duels weren't fought with lethal intention but to "satisfy honour"; that Fresia chooses the sword (and explicitly refuses any other weapon) fits with that, since if you shoot at each other, there's no way of excluding serious wounding at the least and death otherwise if you actually aim, and if you shoot in the air, then "honour" will not be satisfied by a wound. Whereas presumably noblemen who had fencing lessons for years are able to wound without lethal intention.
(BTW, if someone who will probably be me ever writes that AU where G2 and FW do duel each other, which weapon will these two pick? I mean, when they were boys, they fenced, but as adults around forty, with FW having to spend some of the year in a wheelchair already, whereas G2 was somewhat fitter, I could see someone on the Prussian side making the case for pistols.
(Well, not anyone who wants Fritz to become King in 1729, evidently.)
This still leaves us in the dark as to what was actually said (so my own version still could be canon!), but I am intrigued that Karl Keith, after the initial offense, isn't described that negatively in this Italian source. I mean:
r Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward
And him being considerate enough to leave possible duel assignment letters all over the towns and places. Which btw would also argue that he had to have self control most of the time at least.
which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money, but considering these two aren't related and arguing about an inheritance, that's out.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
that AU where G2 and FW do duel each other, which weapon will these two pick?
It probably depends on who issues the challenge, as I believe the other party gets to choose the weapons? FW might go for pistols, G2 for swords, for the reasons you mention.
I am intrigued that Karl Keith, after the initial offense, isn't described that negatively in this Italian source.
I noticed that too!
And him being considerate enough to leave possible duel assignment letters all over the towns and places. Which btw would also argue that he had to have self control most of the time at least.
Yeah, the argument everyone seems to be making is that he has random fits of madness, not that he's in a permanent G3-like state (someone would have noticed). So I guess you could make a story where he came to, was like, "WTF did I just do?" and decided he needed to make amends.
And that would make sense of the "honor required me to" if it's just referring to the formal duel: honor *would* require him to issue a duel challenge after he had randomly beaten this guy up at a salon.
I can't wait to see what the Prussian archives say; I mostly want to see if they confirm Fritz believing in the "fits of madness" claim we're seeing.
Wow, this whole story keeps getting more elaborate! Also, I can't believe *both* the British archives and the Turin archives have websites that are down, at a time like this. At least I have hope that the former will be restored in a timely manner.
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money
I had the exact same thought! This is clearly how the 19th century cleaned stories up to be more socially acceptable.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
Yeah, the argument everyone seems to be making is that he has random fits of madness, not that he's in a permanent G3-like state (someone would have noticed). So I guess you could make a story where he came to, was like, "WTF did I just do?" and decided he needed to make amends.
And that would make sense of the "honor required me to" if it's just referring to the formal duel: honor *would* require him to issue a duel challenge after he had randomly beaten this guy up at a salon.
Well, what do you want me to tell you? I admit I did something crazy, I had a delusion, it happens to me sometimes. But at the end of the day, I am a gentleman, and so is Chevalier Fresia; I will give him satisfaction.
(Now that I have the right search terms, Google Books is being very generous in delivering up results about this incident.)
In which case, if Karl really has manic episodes, I wouldn't blame Fritz for being somewhat sore on the Knyphausen family, if they were the ones suggesting Karl for the job, because that is NOT what you expect from a diplomat.
Lehndorff: I would have never had a manic episode! Would have loved to have been an envoy! Instead....
In which case, if Karl really has manic episodes, I wouldn't blame Fritz for being somewhat sore on the Knyphausen family, if they were the ones suggesting Karl for the job, because that is NOT what you expect from a diplomat.
Indeed. Hertzberg (married to one of the Knyphausen sisters) would have been the one to recommend him, but the whole family would have had to cover up the episodes.
Also, remember when Hertzberg tried to get Karl and his still-living brother Friedrich posted as diplomatic secretaries to Paris and Vienna when they were straight out of university, and Fritz said he had no use for children? He was more right than he knew, when it came to Karl!
ETA: Meant to add, it's looking more and more like maybe the random salon assault happened (although maybe with the addition of Chevalier Fresia having said something prior), but I'm waiting to see what the Prussian archives say. Unfortunately, though I sent off the request today, that usually takes 1-2 months, so we'll have to wait a while before we find out.
Lehndorff: I would have never had a manic episode! Would have loved to have been an envoy! Instead....
that Fresia chooses the sword (and explicitly refuses any other weapon) fits with that, since if you shoot at each other, there's no way of excluding serious wounding at the least and death otherwise if you actually aim, and if you shoot in the air, then "honour" will not be satisfied by a wound. Whereas presumably noblemen who had fencing lessons for years are able to wound without lethal intention.
I never thought of that, that makes a lot of sense.
Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward
Hmm, yeah!
which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money, but considering these two aren't related and arguing about an inheritance, that's out.
Ooh. That is very interesting.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-01 11:33 am (UTC)(BTW, if someone who will probably be me ever writes that AU where G2 and FW do duel each other, which weapon will these two pick? I mean, when they were boys, they fenced, but as adults around forty, with FW having to spend some of the year in a wheelchair already, whereas G2 was somewhat fitter, I could see someone on the Prussian side making the case for pistols.
(Well, not anyone who wants Fritz to become King in 1729, evidently.)
This still leaves us in the dark as to what was actually said (so my own version still could be canon!), but I am intrigued that Karl Keith, after the initial offense, isn't described that negatively in this Italian source. I mean:
r Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward
And him being considerate enough to leave possible duel assignment letters all over the towns and places. Which btw would also argue that he had to have self control most of the time at least.
which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money, but considering these two aren't related and arguing about an inheritance, that's out.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-01 01:28 pm (UTC)It probably depends on who issues the challenge, as I believe the other party gets to choose the weapons? FW might go for pistols, G2 for swords, for the reasons you mention.
I am intrigued that Karl Keith, after the initial offense, isn't described that negatively in this Italian source.
I noticed that too!
And him being considerate enough to leave possible duel assignment letters all over the towns and places. Which btw would also argue that he had to have self control most of the time at least.
Yeah, the argument everyone seems to be making is that he has random fits of madness, not that he's in a permanent G3-like state (someone would have noticed). So I guess you could make a story where he came to, was like, "WTF did I just do?" and decided he needed to make amends.
And that would make sense of the "honor required me to" if it's just referring to the formal duel: honor *would* require him to issue a duel challenge after he had randomly beaten this guy up at a salon.
I can't wait to see what the Prussian archives say; I mostly want to see if they confirm Fritz believing in the "fits of madness" claim we're seeing.
Wow, this whole story keeps getting more elaborate! Also, I can't believe *both* the British archives and the Turin archives have websites that are down, at a time like this. At least I have hope that the former will be restored in a timely manner.
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money
I had the exact same thought! This is clearly how the 19th century cleaned stories up to be more socially acceptable.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
Truly an excellent theory. :)
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-01 01:46 pm (UTC)And that would make sense of the "honor required me to" if it's just referring to the formal duel: honor *would* require him to issue a duel challenge after he had randomly beaten this guy up at a salon.
Another Italian variant (1892) has just emerged that would support this interpretation: it has Karl writing to the commandant of the city, "Enfin que voulez-vous, que je vous dise? J'avoue que j'ai faite une folie, j'ai eu un délire, cela m'arrive quelque fois. Mais au bout du compte je suis gentilhomme, le chevalier Fresia l'est aussi, je lui donnerai satisfaction."
Well, what do you want me to tell you? I admit I did something crazy, I had a delusion, it happens to me sometimes. But at the end of the day, I am a gentleman, and so is Chevalier Fresia; I will give him satisfaction.
(Now that I have the right search terms, Google Books is being very generous in delivering up results about this incident.)
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-01 02:10 pm (UTC)Lehndorff: I would have never had a manic episode! Would have loved to have been an envoy! Instead....
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-01 06:17 pm (UTC)Indeed. Hertzberg (married to one of the Knyphausen sisters) would have been the one to recommend him, but the whole family would have had to cover up the episodes.
Also, remember when Hertzberg tried to get Karl and his still-living brother Friedrich posted as diplomatic secretaries to Paris and Vienna when they were straight out of university, and Fritz said he had no use for children? He was more right than he knew, when it came to Karl!
ETA: Meant to add, it's looking more and more like maybe the random salon assault happened (although maybe with the addition of Chevalier Fresia having said something prior), but I'm waiting to see what the Prussian archives say. Unfortunately, though I sent off the request today, that usually takes 1-2 months, so we'll have to wait a while before we find out.
Lehndorff: I would have never had a manic episode! Would have loved to have been an envoy! Instead....
Lol. There, there, Lehndorff.
Re: Dueling: The Sequel!
Date: 2025-06-08 10:30 pm (UTC)that Fresia chooses the sword (and explicitly refuses any other weapon) fits with that, since if you shoot at each other, there's no way of excluding serious wounding at the least and death otherwise if you actually aim, and if you shoot in the air, then "honour" will not be satisfied by a wound. Whereas presumably noblemen who had fencing lessons for years are able to wound without lethal intention.
I never thought of that, that makes a lot of sense.
Baron Keith, who, however strange and bizarre he was, was however anything but a coward
Hmm, yeah!
which perhaps had as a motive or jealously concealed pretext an amorous rivalry
Is clearly pure speculation but reminds of how the Katte family framed the duel between Hans Herrmann's little half brothers as being about a girl when it was all about money, but considering these two aren't related and arguing about an inheritance, that's out.
Ooh. That is very interesting.
I stand by my "Peter's youthful fling with Fritz was dragged into it" theory. :)
Ha! I mean, it's a great theory!