Perhaps the Stars (Palmer)
May. 25th, 2024 06:32 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnOkay, so, I didn't even try to write anything coherent about this book. Instead I had the idea to take quasi-real-time notes. I wasn't aware of this at the time, but of course it's somewhat thematic that I took notes during the actual events instead of writing it up afterwards as I did the other books... and also thematic that I was taking these notes because I was envisioning a dialogue with you, dear readers, but could not have that dialogue until I had finished the book (since the only other person I know who was reading this semi-concurrently, hidden_variable, had already finished reading it). (Also thematic that I often had to go back and revisit/edit my notes :P )
0-20% through:
-Everyone: Gosh, we are twisting ourselves into knots over uniforms!
-Me: Wouldn't it be easier to have, like, idk, pins or something? Scarves?
-Everyone: Wouldn't it be easier to have pins or armbands or something?
I called it! But also -- and perhaps this hit differently in 2021 when I at least still thought we lived in a world that had less conflict than it became apparent that it actually did -- I feel like everyone in this book is really not all that good at waging war if they are being careful about wearing uniforms/insignia/what-have-you and agreeing with everyone else they are fighting against about things like this. (I love it.) It reminds me a bit of when my ward tried really hard to be like other churches and have ~major music drama~ and congregational infighting, only to fail in a big way when people ended up saying things like, "Look, I don't want to fight any more, can we work this out?" We're such amateurs!!
-I also thought that it somehow didn't seem in-character for what I knew about Utopia for them to be behind the savage incredible beasts! I'm really glad it turned out not to be them. But then who could it be? Who even has the know-how, except for Utopia?
-This exchange:
"Is it working?"
"Unknown. A scryhawk brought me skysight, but I've no groundword from beyond the river."
When I read that, I came up with a theory: in addition to vowing to renounce complacency and all that, Utopians also vow to follow the Rule of Cool. I claim this explains A LOT about everything we see about Utopia!
-I find it fascinating that this world sees Free Speech as not a good thing. I think that's actually rather interesting -- and also that censorship and things like wearing a tracker all the time are seen as good. It's an interesting system.
20-40% through:
-Huh, I really like 9A and their narration. I like them more than I like Mycroft, sorry. Also their writing is a lot clearer, omg!
-Heh, I twigged to Mycroft's story being the Odyssey right before the story namechecked Circe. I was very proud of myself! I did wonder whether Mycroft was making it up. It didn't occur to me that it might be the influence of Bridger living after their death (that's kind of weird, actually??)
-At this point in my life, I don't really want to read about war more than I have to. I skimmed a lot of the war parts.
-Whenever set-sets come up, ND me is all "set-sets are so cool! I would totally sign up to be a set-set!" I mean, they seem to be pretty happy and they can do such cool analytical things... uhhhh. Well, okay, as soon as I wrote this down, there's that set-set-ish Lorelei-Cook-individual. But I feel for them! :( It's not their fault they were totally set up!
-Every time Huxley opens their mouth it's more evidence for my theory that the Utopians take an oath to uphold the Rule of Cool. "So toxic a warp will have been wefted as occultly as possible." Really??
-Uhhhh Mycroft IS Odysseus?? Huh.
-HOLY CRAP the Mitsubishi were right???? Cornel MASON really is imprisoning his Son?
40-60% through:
-IT WAS GORDIAN THE WHOLE TIME! I was so sure that Gordian couldn't be it because of the better-than-Utopian U-beasts, but yeah, we never saw those fantastical U-beasts, just heard wild rumors about them, so they wouldn't have to be super-perfect or super-powerful, just good enough to scare people.
-Now hold on. Does Gordian actually have the technical know-how? Are there really that many mechanical engineers in Gordian? Hmm. I guess if they were planning this for decades they could have got engineers to work for them even if they weren't Gordian themselves... just like they got the Guildbreakers (!!) to work for their purposes.
-but I very much reject the principle that the Gordian route is mutually exclusive to the Utopian route!! I really reject the principle Mycroft tries to explain, that Earth is too good so we won't ever want to go into space. Nah. There will always be people who want to climb Mt. Everest, even if I think they're all delusional. There will always be people who want to go to space or to push past that last frontier. Also there will always be people who will be interested in the technological and scientific frontiers, if not the physical frontiers! Maybe I feel strongly about this because I grew up on James Tiptree, Jr. who famously wrote all those stories about how humans basically have this drive to fuck outwards (literally).
-Eureka Weeksbooth! Aw, I love that kid. When not overtaken by, er, events, Eureka is living their best life and knows it.
60-80% through
-It is unclear to me whether Cornel MASON is supposed to be at all sympathetic when he's all "no compromise, only surrender to me is acceptable, and also vengeance forever!" (I can see he's not necessarily supposed to be right.) I am not AT ALL sympathetic to him in the year 2024. Maybe I would have been a bit in 2021? But from the vantage point of now, PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS, CORNEL. Much better to have J.E.D.D. or 9A (!! that part was great) as Emperor if that's what you're going to be like. Bryar was right! [I mean... it's probably hypocritical of me to be OK with Bryar when I'm not okay with the Emperor. But in my head there's a difference.] [Also, I think the ending makes it clear that whether he's sympathetic or not, he's definitely not right.]
-I legit cried when 9A said their piece about how they supported Sniper and that others they didn't even know about over space and time were supporting them... Charles Williams wrote a poem about centuries of readers supporting Virgil and this reminded me of that, a bit. (Williams' poem is from a Christian and also bananapants perspective, but it's stuck with me.)
-This interaction between Faust and Huxley and J.E.D.D. Faust is really interesting. Faust appears to be an Eliezer Yudkowsky type? Conquer death, then everything else. [I was probably going to write more here, but didn't.]
-Should we be so honest with our enemies? I had the sudden feeling we were amateurs, three children play-acting at war. CALLED IT. But you know what... yes! be like that. Show me that the world has advanced since 2024. Please.
-Okay, uh, I think I wasn't paying enough attention when Madame was talking earlier (Madame's philosophy is legit kind of boring to me) so I guess I totally missed that she thought war would result in the testosterone-laden men taking over. Like. What? Why? (Also, DW!salon continually reminds me that being a woman, even a relatively powerful one, in more patriarchical eras was NOT FUN, which makes me continually seriously question Madame's whole schtick.) So, I guess yay that she was wrong, but this fell a little more flat for me than I think it was intended to.
-But! I really like the reveal in general that many of the movers and shakers here are in fact people with female body parts, and many of those that have male body parts are feminine-coded in nature. And my stupid head still defaults to male for, like, everyone.
-9A is sounding more and more like Mycroft. I don't know what to make of that. (Also is having more and more conversations with Hobbes.) [My 80% self is coming back here to say: I almost deleted this bullet point a bit later when I thought oh, I must not have been paying attention, it really was Mycroft, not 9A sounding more like Mycroft, that's kind of embarrassing... but it turns out I was right the first time!]
-Thisbe?? I thought we were done with her! Ugh. (I admire the craftsmanship that tied up her loose end as well, but also: ugh.)
-I continue to be not very interested in Achilles and the Illiad, but maybe we are done with that now? Achilles is also one of those people who mean we CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS. I guess maybe this is saying something deep about the ancient world vs the future world, that maybe by that time there is progress?
-Hey!! They figured out Bridger's resurrection potion! So there's no more issue with Gordian and Utopia!
-Sniper and 9A <3333333333333333 And also "No One," omg <3 :(
-I miss you, 9A! (Also, I find 9A's style a lot easier to take than Mycroft's, though Mycroft's style is similar to Voltaire's, it is true...)
-Because that exquisite thinking thing which is your self isn't soiled by, but constituted by, cumulative complexities, even the grief-born ones.
-Wait, we're still having this Gordian vs Utopian conversation? Why? I thought Bridger's potion licked death and we were all set for space again? Hey, Sniper says what we're all thinking! Humans do hard things for their own sake, that's more unique to our species than intelligence is. Yes! I really don't get it, shouldn't a Gordian understand that since their whole thing is understanding the human brain?? I'm very disappointed in them, that seems like a fundamental flaw in their reasoning. If I were a Brillist, maybe this is where I'd strike off and form a Brillist heresy, or something. [From post-book: ha, or a smaller Hive!]
80-100% through
-HAHAHAHA I called it about Madame not being able to refrain from either polyamory or conspiracies
-while I actually am sympathetic to the king's reaction of "will Perry just die already??" it's also not okay to kill people?? Didn't we just spend, like, 3 1/2 books talking about this? [from post-book self: yes, happy that they very much addressed this at the end!]
-This whole Gordian vs Utopian Thing is just really irritating to me. Now that we know the immortality potion exists, sure, let's prioritize working on that... but working on brain stuff and working on space stuff is not mutually exclusive?? and has Felix Faust ever heard of comparative advantage?? Because the people who are the best at working on space are probably not always the people who are best at working on brains?? [Here from near 100%: keep reading, self!]
-It's interesting that this is a world where distance is considered as such a problem. I guess that makes sense given that everyone is so connected not just by the internet/comms (as we are today) but also by the cars system.
-That's a super interesting resolution of the Gordian vs Utopian worldviews, though, I'll have to think about that. [After reading the whole book, going off and thinking about it, and reading a bit: Interesting that it's a theological resolution, that's to say, as Palmer said somewhere-or-other, it is a very Enlightenment/Voltairean kind of way of presenting and solving the problem, not a 21st-century kind of way.]
-This resolution will let the Earth's garden grow -- OMG is there also a layered Candide metaphor running through these books???? Probably, it's JUST the kind of thing Palmer would do (at the very least I'm absolutely sure the Candide reference is 100% intentional) but I'm too lazy to look for it now
-I mean, J.E.D.D. kicking all the Utopians outward and upward ALSO rather keeps the Utopians wedded to the Rule of Cool. I'M JUST SAYING.
-WAIT WHAT WTF scientific progress in this world isn't publicly disseminated?? Brillist and Utopian research isn't available to everyone?? WELL YEAH it's just about time to fix THAT! I mean, yes, now that I look back this has been clear from the very first book, it's not like it was a secret, I just... airheadedly didn't even think about it, I assumed that every time Mycroft was like "oh yeah, no one knows how Brillists do their thing" he just meant that people didn't bother to learn... because free exchange of scientific knowledge is such a fundamental principle of the world I live in. (Although it's very true that one can also see how they got there from here, because in this world as well there's governmental and corporate science that is closely held.)
...Now I understand the whole Gordian vs. Utopia thing a lot better, because in this worldview, yeah, it makes a lot more sense that you can't cross-pollinate easily and that resources that are used for one thing are categorically filed as resources that aren't used for another. Okay, got it. It's an interesting difference of their world.
end
I'm very impressed by this whole series -- I really can't remember the last time I read a series that both was so thoughtful in its worldbuilding and so complete in the way it worked things out. With all these notes, I think it's less than half of the things I would have liked to say/talk about (if I'd really been taking real and constant live notes), there was so much! (I never even said anything about Carlyle, love them!)
I find it a series I find more impressive than lovable. I don't think that's an insult in any way, mind you: it's clearly setting out to do things in a way that is meant to engage me cerebrally rather than aiming directly at my tropes, for example. But wow there's a lot there and a lot to think about and I'm glad I read them.
hidden_variable, had already finished reading it). (Also thematic that I often had to go back and revisit/edit my notes :P ) 0-20% through:
-Everyone: Gosh, we are twisting ourselves into knots over uniforms!
-Me: Wouldn't it be easier to have, like, idk, pins or something? Scarves?
-Everyone: Wouldn't it be easier to have pins or armbands or something?
I called it! But also -- and perhaps this hit differently in 2021 when I at least still thought we lived in a world that had less conflict than it became apparent that it actually did -- I feel like everyone in this book is really not all that good at waging war if they are being careful about wearing uniforms/insignia/what-have-you and agreeing with everyone else they are fighting against about things like this. (I love it.) It reminds me a bit of when my ward tried really hard to be like other churches and have ~major music drama~ and congregational infighting, only to fail in a big way when people ended up saying things like, "Look, I don't want to fight any more, can we work this out?" We're such amateurs!!
-I also thought that it somehow didn't seem in-character for what I knew about Utopia for them to be behind the savage incredible beasts! I'm really glad it turned out not to be them. But then who could it be? Who even has the know-how, except for Utopia?
-This exchange:
"Is it working?"
"Unknown. A scryhawk brought me skysight, but I've no groundword from beyond the river."
When I read that, I came up with a theory: in addition to vowing to renounce complacency and all that, Utopians also vow to follow the Rule of Cool. I claim this explains A LOT about everything we see about Utopia!
-I find it fascinating that this world sees Free Speech as not a good thing. I think that's actually rather interesting -- and also that censorship and things like wearing a tracker all the time are seen as good. It's an interesting system.
20-40% through:
-Huh, I really like 9A and their narration. I like them more than I like Mycroft, sorry. Also their writing is a lot clearer, omg!
-Heh, I twigged to Mycroft's story being the Odyssey right before the story namechecked Circe. I was very proud of myself! I did wonder whether Mycroft was making it up. It didn't occur to me that it might be the influence of Bridger living after their death (that's kind of weird, actually??)
-At this point in my life, I don't really want to read about war more than I have to. I skimmed a lot of the war parts.
-Whenever set-sets come up, ND me is all "set-sets are so cool! I would totally sign up to be a set-set!" I mean, they seem to be pretty happy and they can do such cool analytical things... uhhhh. Well, okay, as soon as I wrote this down, there's that set-set-ish Lorelei-Cook-individual. But I feel for them! :( It's not their fault they were totally set up!
-Every time Huxley opens their mouth it's more evidence for my theory that the Utopians take an oath to uphold the Rule of Cool. "So toxic a warp will have been wefted as occultly as possible." Really??
-Uhhhh Mycroft IS Odysseus?? Huh.
-HOLY CRAP the Mitsubishi were right???? Cornel MASON really is imprisoning his Son?
40-60% through:
-IT WAS GORDIAN THE WHOLE TIME! I was so sure that Gordian couldn't be it because of the better-than-Utopian U-beasts, but yeah, we never saw those fantastical U-beasts, just heard wild rumors about them, so they wouldn't have to be super-perfect or super-powerful, just good enough to scare people.
-Now hold on. Does Gordian actually have the technical know-how? Are there really that many mechanical engineers in Gordian? Hmm. I guess if they were planning this for decades they could have got engineers to work for them even if they weren't Gordian themselves... just like they got the Guildbreakers (!!) to work for their purposes.
-but I very much reject the principle that the Gordian route is mutually exclusive to the Utopian route!! I really reject the principle Mycroft tries to explain, that Earth is too good so we won't ever want to go into space. Nah. There will always be people who want to climb Mt. Everest, even if I think they're all delusional. There will always be people who want to go to space or to push past that last frontier. Also there will always be people who will be interested in the technological and scientific frontiers, if not the physical frontiers! Maybe I feel strongly about this because I grew up on James Tiptree, Jr. who famously wrote all those stories about how humans basically have this drive to fuck outwards (literally).
-Eureka Weeksbooth! Aw, I love that kid. When not overtaken by, er, events, Eureka is living their best life and knows it.
60-80% through
-It is unclear to me whether Cornel MASON is supposed to be at all sympathetic when he's all "no compromise, only surrender to me is acceptable, and also vengeance forever!" (I can see he's not necessarily supposed to be right.) I am not AT ALL sympathetic to him in the year 2024. Maybe I would have been a bit in 2021? But from the vantage point of now, PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS, CORNEL. Much better to have J.E.D.D. or 9A (!! that part was great) as Emperor if that's what you're going to be like. Bryar was right! [I mean... it's probably hypocritical of me to be OK with Bryar when I'm not okay with the Emperor. But in my head there's a difference.] [Also, I think the ending makes it clear that whether he's sympathetic or not, he's definitely not right.]
-I legit cried when 9A said their piece about how they supported Sniper and that others they didn't even know about over space and time were supporting them... Charles Williams wrote a poem about centuries of readers supporting Virgil and this reminded me of that, a bit. (Williams' poem is from a Christian and also bananapants perspective, but it's stuck with me.)
-This interaction between Faust and Huxley and J.E.D.D. Faust is really interesting. Faust appears to be an Eliezer Yudkowsky type? Conquer death, then everything else. [I was probably going to write more here, but didn't.]
-Should we be so honest with our enemies? I had the sudden feeling we were amateurs, three children play-acting at war. CALLED IT. But you know what... yes! be like that. Show me that the world has advanced since 2024. Please.
-Okay, uh, I think I wasn't paying enough attention when Madame was talking earlier (Madame's philosophy is legit kind of boring to me) so I guess I totally missed that she thought war would result in the testosterone-laden men taking over. Like. What? Why? (Also, DW!salon continually reminds me that being a woman, even a relatively powerful one, in more patriarchical eras was NOT FUN, which makes me continually seriously question Madame's whole schtick.) So, I guess yay that she was wrong, but this fell a little more flat for me than I think it was intended to.
-But! I really like the reveal in general that many of the movers and shakers here are in fact people with female body parts, and many of those that have male body parts are feminine-coded in nature. And my stupid head still defaults to male for, like, everyone.
-9A is sounding more and more like Mycroft. I don't know what to make of that. (Also is having more and more conversations with Hobbes.) [My 80% self is coming back here to say: I almost deleted this bullet point a bit later when I thought oh, I must not have been paying attention, it really was Mycroft, not 9A sounding more like Mycroft, that's kind of embarrassing... but it turns out I was right the first time!]
-Thisbe?? I thought we were done with her! Ugh. (I admire the craftsmanship that tied up her loose end as well, but also: ugh.)
-I continue to be not very interested in Achilles and the Illiad, but maybe we are done with that now? Achilles is also one of those people who mean we CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS. I guess maybe this is saying something deep about the ancient world vs the future world, that maybe by that time there is progress?
-Hey!! They figured out Bridger's resurrection potion! So there's no more issue with Gordian and Utopia!
-Sniper and 9A <3333333333333333 And also "No One," omg <3 :(
-I miss you, 9A! (Also, I find 9A's style a lot easier to take than Mycroft's, though Mycroft's style is similar to Voltaire's, it is true...)
-Because that exquisite thinking thing which is your self isn't soiled by, but constituted by, cumulative complexities, even the grief-born ones.
-Wait, we're still having this Gordian vs Utopian conversation? Why? I thought Bridger's potion licked death and we were all set for space again? Hey, Sniper says what we're all thinking! Humans do hard things for their own sake, that's more unique to our species than intelligence is. Yes! I really don't get it, shouldn't a Gordian understand that since their whole thing is understanding the human brain?? I'm very disappointed in them, that seems like a fundamental flaw in their reasoning. If I were a Brillist, maybe this is where I'd strike off and form a Brillist heresy, or something. [From post-book: ha, or a smaller Hive!]
80-100% through
-HAHAHAHA I called it about Madame not being able to refrain from either polyamory or conspiracies
-while I actually am sympathetic to the king's reaction of "will Perry just die already??" it's also not okay to kill people?? Didn't we just spend, like, 3 1/2 books talking about this? [from post-book self: yes, happy that they very much addressed this at the end!]
-This whole Gordian vs Utopian Thing is just really irritating to me. Now that we know the immortality potion exists, sure, let's prioritize working on that... but working on brain stuff and working on space stuff is not mutually exclusive?? and has Felix Faust ever heard of comparative advantage?? Because the people who are the best at working on space are probably not always the people who are best at working on brains?? [Here from near 100%: keep reading, self!]
-It's interesting that this is a world where distance is considered as such a problem. I guess that makes sense given that everyone is so connected not just by the internet/comms (as we are today) but also by the cars system.
-That's a super interesting resolution of the Gordian vs Utopian worldviews, though, I'll have to think about that. [After reading the whole book, going off and thinking about it, and reading a bit: Interesting that it's a theological resolution, that's to say, as Palmer said somewhere-or-other, it is a very Enlightenment/Voltairean kind of way of presenting and solving the problem, not a 21st-century kind of way.]
-This resolution will let the Earth's garden grow -- OMG is there also a layered Candide metaphor running through these books???? Probably, it's JUST the kind of thing Palmer would do (at the very least I'm absolutely sure the Candide reference is 100% intentional) but I'm too lazy to look for it now
-I mean, J.E.D.D. kicking all the Utopians outward and upward ALSO rather keeps the Utopians wedded to the Rule of Cool. I'M JUST SAYING.
-WAIT WHAT WTF scientific progress in this world isn't publicly disseminated?? Brillist and Utopian research isn't available to everyone?? WELL YEAH it's just about time to fix THAT! I mean, yes, now that I look back this has been clear from the very first book, it's not like it was a secret, I just... airheadedly didn't even think about it, I assumed that every time Mycroft was like "oh yeah, no one knows how Brillists do their thing" he just meant that people didn't bother to learn... because free exchange of scientific knowledge is such a fundamental principle of the world I live in. (Although it's very true that one can also see how they got there from here, because in this world as well there's governmental and corporate science that is closely held.)
...Now I understand the whole Gordian vs. Utopia thing a lot better, because in this worldview, yeah, it makes a lot more sense that you can't cross-pollinate easily and that resources that are used for one thing are categorically filed as resources that aren't used for another. Okay, got it. It's an interesting difference of their world.
end
I'm very impressed by this whole series -- I really can't remember the last time I read a series that both was so thoughtful in its worldbuilding and so complete in the way it worked things out. With all these notes, I think it's less than half of the things I would have liked to say/talk about (if I'd really been taking real and constant live notes), there was so much! (I never even said anything about Carlyle, love them!)
I find it a series I find more impressive than lovable. I don't think that's an insult in any way, mind you: it's clearly setting out to do things in a way that is meant to engage me cerebrally rather than aiming directly at my tropes, for example. But wow there's a lot there and a lot to think about and I'm glad I read them.
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Date: 2024-05-26 02:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-05-27 04:03 am (UTC)(I also totally did not understand that whole interchange between 9A and Saladin and chalked it down to potentially some sort of hallucination... until I did understand it :( <3 )
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Date: 2024-05-27 12:18 pm (UTC)(like
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Date: 2024-05-31 05:00 am (UTC)Yesssss and I was right there with him going "wait... what... do you mean... what... WHAT!"
but then in Perhaps the Stars when that all broke down it felt particularly relatable
Yes, this! Also the parts with 9A on the ventilator were rather on the nose, even in 2024, and gosh, reading it in April 2020 must have been Something.
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Date: 2024-06-01 02:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-06-04 04:17 am (UTC)Ah, right -- I knew that she had experience with chronic illness, but that didn't occur to me when reading.
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Date: 2024-05-26 05:25 am (UTC)This was the only one I read concurrently with a couple of friends (who got into the series after me), and we ended up having a Pass-It-On sync read of sorts, where I would text to one friend and another friend would also text to her, and then our central friend periodically shared our impressions with each other. Which was a bit mad, but fit the book surprisingly well.
Utopians also vow to follow the Rule of Cool. I claim this explains A LOT about everything we see about Utopia!
Sound legit! XD
-I find it fascinating that this world sees Free Speech as not a good thing.
This was one of the most "bucket of cold water" moments in the whole tetralogy for me, because I have internalized very strongly that Free Speech is a good thing: I grew up in a place without it, and it's one of the fundamentals of US democracy specifically that I believe in very strongly, and so reading 9A's phrasing of it as "the old hate phrase 'free speech'" (going off memory, so might not be exactly right) and the machine guns/chivalry analogy was such a weird moment! Because I had to stop and reexamine my actual real-world beliefs (before concluding that, no, I do actually believe Free Speech is a good thing, sorry, 9A).
-HOLY CRAP the Mitsubishi were right???? Cornel MASON really is imprisoning his Son?
Such a great moment, right!? Because it sounds like absolutely nonsensical propaganda when you first hear it, and then it turns out to be true! (the way the worries over the Brillists taking over the government when the World's Grandpa convinces 9A et al to form a Triumvirate sound like paranoia -- but actually turn out to be true.)
-I legit cried when 9A said their piece about how they supported Sniper and that others they didn't even know about over space and time were supporting them...
Those chapters, 9A thinking about Sniper and then the two of them meeting, OUCH.
-But! I really like the reveal in general that many of the movers and shakers here are in fact people with female body parts, and many of those that have male body parts are feminine-coded in nature
The 9A, Lesley, and Daphne parley with "and not a dick among us" felt like the payoff of all the gender stuff in the series for me, and I was left satisfied by that.
-HAHAHAHA I called it about Madame not being able to refrain from either polyamory or conspiracies
Yes you did! XD It was very hard not to say anything on your book 3 writeup. :D
Anyway, I'm stoked you read these and enjoyed them and had so many crunchy things to say about them, including a bunch of Voltaire-based stuff that I did not pick up on.
no subject
Date: 2024-05-27 04:08 am (UTC)(the way the worries over the Brillists taking over the government when the World's Grandpa convinces 9A et al to form a Triumvirate sound like paranoia -- but actually turn out to be true.)
YESSSSS I didn't manage to write down anything about that but that was also a HOLY CRAP moment!
including a bunch of Voltaire-based stuff that I did not pick up on.
Well, I also had the advantage of reading something you (I am pretty sure it was you) had written -- I think maybe your Snowflake post? -- where you quoted someone else as saying that Palmer wanted to write a book that was something like what Voltaire would have written had Voltaire been writing an SF book today. So I was thinking of Voltaire a lot while reading them. And also I had the advantage that I've been reading a lot about Voltaire for the last several years! :)
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Date: 2024-05-27 04:39 am (UTC)I think that probably was me, yeah :) Although I don't remember how I stumbled on that anymore -- it might've been via the podcast that Ada Palmer and Jo Walton have, which
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Date: 2024-05-31 05:03 am (UTC)Wait um
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Date: 2024-06-05 04:12 am (UTC)Not, like, habitually, but when she listens, she will sometimes summarize it for our WhatsApp group (brilliantly).
Which... I have your number, so I could ask
(I have the same problem with audiobooks and books read aloud, though not if it's set to music...)
Interestingly, I have a problem with audiobooks/books read aloud/podfic, and so I avoided podcasts for ages, but then it turned out that while this problem also holds for fiction podcasts where you're supposed to listen to a story in audio, I can listen to podcasts that are a CONVERSATION just fine. That seems to engage a different mental mode, and instead of tuning out (which happens to me with audiobooks) I just feel like I'm sitting on a chat with friends, just not one I can participate in.
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Date: 2024-06-11 04:14 am (UTC)I've tried that too -- I can't listen to podcasts that are conversation either :( Maybe I should look for ones that set them to music, lol.
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Date: 2024-05-26 11:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-05-27 04:15 am (UTC)Now that I've finished the book, I think it's less that it reads that differently now, in a sense, than that some of the worldbuilding points are a little more obvious -- for example, I cued in to the war in PtS being kinder than previous wars very early on in a way that I think I wouldn't have in 2019. And so it's amazing to me how in command Palmer was of her material in 2019! (And earlier years, obviously.)
I really think that if I wanted to get the most out of these books that I'd have to go back and read the whole series knowing what I know now. But idk when that will happen :)
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Date: 2024-05-27 10:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-05-31 05:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-06-01 01:47 am (UTC)I really like the reveal in general that many of the movers and shakers here are in fact people with female body parts, and many of those that have male body parts are feminine-coded in nature. And my stupid head still defaults to male for, like, everyone.
This was one of my favorite moments as well, and I was also mad at myself for mentally defaulting to male in a lot of cases. I kept trusting Mycroft’s pronoun assignments—even when we got explicit information that some of them were not to be trusted, I didn’t go back and question the others. I do specifically remember thinking, “huh, we don’t really know 9A’s gender, do we?” So maybe I can give myself half a point for that. But I was completely surprised (in a good way) to find out about Martin, and also Papa in the previous book.
Tangentially, one very nice surprise for me at the end was that we see two marriages (Vivian/Bryar and Martin/Xiaoliu) that survived what I would have thought would be unforgivable relationship-ending events. Like, “Yes, I profoundly betrayed the principles you hold most dear/handed you a death sentence. But only for the most noble imaginable reasons! It’s okay, I still love you!” That was sweetly heartwarming, in a slightly bizarre way. And more generally, no matter what terrible things they’re implicated in, just about everyone gets a forgiveness/redemption arc in some way. The only exceptions I can think of are Madame, Thisbe, and to some extent Cornel MASON, as you say. I guess Su-Hyeon is sort of a borderline case. That whole plotline was one of the most heartbreaking parts of the book for me. And it was definitely another of those rug-out-from-under-you reversals, thinking, “Well, this is obviously just paranoia…wait, it’s NOT??”
I have a lot more thoughts that I may try to put into a more coherent shape at some point.
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Date: 2024-06-04 04:24 am (UTC)Oh -- Su-Hyeon broke my heart. Just all of it, including or maybe especially the part where they were absolutely not supposed to tell 9A, and they did anyway <3
And it was definitely another of those rug-out-from-under-you reversals, thinking, “Well, this is obviously just paranoia…wait, it’s NOT??”
Yes!!
I am looking forward to your thoughts!