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cahnUnfortunately, there was then at Berlin a King who pursued one policy only, who deceived his enemies, but not his servants, and who lied without scruple, but never without necessity.
(from The King's Secret - by Duke de Broglie, grand-nephew of the subject of the book, Comte de Broglie, and grandfather of the physicist) )
(from The King's Secret - by Duke de Broglie, grand-nephew of the subject of the book, Comte de Broglie, and grandfather of the physicist) )
FS in three biographies: An Overview (2)
Date: 2023-08-16 08:52 am (UTC)FS' Dad: I'm the son of an Austrian Archduchess myself and seeing as it doesn't really look like my cousins Joseph and Charles the MT Dad are producing anything but daughters, and my wife, daughter of Liselotte and Philippe the Gay, sister of Philippe the Regent, keeps producing sons, I'm going to gamble and try to marry one of my sons with an Austrian Archduchess. The Emperor at this point is Joseph I., so I'm proposing to his kid daughters first.
*first two sons of Lorraine Leopold: die*
*Joseph I: Also dies*
*Charles the future Dad of MT: ascends*
*MT: born*
Lorraine Leopold: Okay, I still have still three sons left. How about your new baby/my kid Leopold Clemons, son 3, now likely sucessor?
*Son 3, after some years, when negotiations are far enough that he's about to move to Vienna for his education: also dies*
Lorraine Leopold: A curse on infant mortality! Still two sons left. Franz Stephan, your turn! Off to Vienna with you!
Teenage FS: moves to Austria, ostensibly for his courtly education, but of course mainly because his father hopes for the big time.
Teenage FS: *endears himself to Uncle Charles, who calles him "herzig" und "lieb", and of course long term wise to kid!MT, but is distrusted as too French by Austrian courtiers and Viennese population*
Teenage FS: *encouraged to become as German as possible; grows up*
MT: *gets 12, and now is seen as de facto marriagable*
Emperor Charles: This is awkward. I really like Franzl, but I also need room to negotiate with Spain and other powers I want to sign on my Pragmatic Sanction, and I can't do that if FS is MT's official fiance. Otoh, he's now grown up, so "here for his education" doesn't work as an excuse anymore. What to do?
Lorraine Leopold: *dies*
Emperor Charles: Phew. Bye, Franzl, though don't give up hope, I'm just trying to make everyone sign the Pragmantic Sanction!
FS: *takes over as Duke of Lorraine, sees the state of court finances, decides on austerity program*
Lorraine nobles initial reaction: Ugh! How German! Why are you so German?
Biographers: And did we mention he'll always write German like a Frenchman and French like a German, with phonetic and excentric spelling in both languages?
Renate Zedinger: Though I will correct both his French and German for greater readability when quoting him, which is the only thing I have in common with MT. Well, that and thinking FS is hot.
FS some years later: *finally married MT after Duchy switchero*
Viennese commoners and Austrian nobility: Ugh, he's so French! And surely is secretly paid by Versailles!
All three biographers: So unfair. He never, ever was pro French during all his years with MT. Au contraire. But the xenophobia didn't lessen until he and MT produced Joseph. Until that point, he was vilified and ridiculed as a French plant set on ruining the Empire from within.
Selena: Somehow, this reminds me of his daughter Marie Antoinette and the attitude of the French towards her. Though MA sadly did not inherit FS' business accumen, while having evidently a good part of his charm and gaity. Now, my three biographers: did FS trade army supplies in the Seventh Years War to the Prussians?
Fred Hennings: For sure, and here is the Fritz quote from that historical masterpiece "The History of the Seven Years War" by Fritz to prove it.
Georg Schreiber: He didn't. That Fritz is the only source of that story ought to tell you something.
Renate Zedinger: What Georg Schreiber said. I add that there's another Fritz quote from actually during the war where he complains that FS buying supplies for the Austrian side got the prices up!
Selena: Mistresses?
Fred Hennings: Well, yeah.
Georg Schreiber: The Countess Auersperg definitely. Not sure how many others. As for illegitimate children, some claimed to be later, but they come across as con women and -men to me, and that's certainly how MT treated them. Not locking them up as Kaunitz suggested but not taking them seriously, either.
Renate Zedinger: I'm not sure whether he had sex with the Countess, either. I mean, she was clearly a favourite, but he'd been friends with her Dad and was thirty years older. Maybe she was like a daughter to him? Did I mention I'm the biggest FS fan of us three?
Selena: You all write about how during his Grand Tour he was a big success in England but don't quote from Lord Hervey or his wife, which is a miss because G2 being nice about FS could have been just official politeness, but Hervey was snarky about basically everyone he wasn't in love with at the time, so for him to be complimentary about FS is a true testimony to his charm.
The three biographers: All three of us provide you and Salon with a great new story re: FS visit chez Hohenzollern just when Fritz and EC got engaged, though!
Selena: That's true. According to you, FW first wanted to make the engagement official before even having proposed officially in the name of his son to EC and her parents. When Seckendorff & Grumbkow told him that ought to come first, he hit on the next idea, which was that FS should to the official proposing - i.e. FS should propose, in Fritz' name, to EC.
FS: I don't think so. I've met Fritz. He made his feelings about the whole engagement clear to all and sundry. However, since I'm a diplomatic guy, here's my official excuse to you, FW: If I were to propose for Fritz to EC, this would insult your brother-in-law and cousin G2, who was my most recent host and really really nice to me. As I understand it, he wanted his own daughter to be married to Fritz.
FW: I don't see the downside of insulting G2, but fine, have it your way.
Seckendorff: A plus diplomacy, your highness. May I suggest that while it's good that you've befriended Junior, you don't write to him more often than you do to FW? FW is madly jealous about this kind of thing. Also, add your letters to Fritz to your letters to FW, so he can see you're not keeping any secrets behind his back.
EC: Nobody ever asked me, but looking back, I think I would have enjoyed having FS propose to me for Fritz.
Selena: Who did official proposing for FS to MT, btw?
Biographers: Glad you asked. Eugene was to do it, because he was the highest regarded guy in Austria, but he was already too old and fragile, so FS suggested doing it himself, and did, with aplomb.
MT: Naturally.
Re: FS in three biographies: An Overview (2)
Date: 2023-08-18 05:09 am (UTC)Okay, I didn't think you could get me to laugh at infant mortality, but... you got me to laugh at infant mortality :P :D
But seriously, huh, Lorraine Leopold eventually succeeded, didn't he?! Too bad he was dead and couldn't enjoy it, I guess.
Now, my three biographers: did FS trade army supplies in the Seventh Years War to the Prussians?
Fred Hennings: For sure, and here is the Fritz quote from that historical masterpiece "The History of the Seven Years War" by Fritz to prove it.
Georg Schreiber: He didn't. That Fritz is the only source of that story ought to tell you something.
Renate Zedinger: What Georg Schreiber said. I add that there's another Fritz quote from actually during the war where he complains that FS buying supplies for the Austrian side got the prices up!
WELL THEN.
FS should to the official proposing - i.e. FS should propose, in Fritz' name, to EC.
WHAT. This is GREAT
FW: I don't see the downside of insulting G2, but fine, have it your way.
HAHAHAHA
EC: Nobody ever asked me, but looking back, I think I would have enjoyed having FS propose to me for Fritz.
Aw EC <3 Salon would have enjoyed it too!
so FS suggested doing it himself, and did, with aplomb.
:D FS!
Re: FS in three biographies: An Overview (2)
Date: 2023-08-18 09:55 am (UTC)He did. He was like SD with her English marriage project about this. We have the first SD letter mentioning a Wilhelmine/Fritz of Wales match when Wilhelmine is all of six months old, and that's how Lorraine Leopold was about getting his boys matched to Austrian archduchesses practically as soon as one was born. Of course, SD had a more firm reason to believe this would make Wilhelmine King of England than Leopold had reason to believe this would make a son of his really truly HRE - for one thing, MT's Dad and her mother were young when Lorraine Leopold started with this obsession, they always could have produced a living son in the next decade or so, in which case FS would have gotten a wife with a good dowry and high social status, but nothing more than that - and yet his gamble paid off, wheraes SD's would have failed even if Wilhelmine had married the guy. (Given Fritz of Wales died before G2.) She'd never have been Queen of England.
WELL THEN.
I'm really curious as to what Mildred will say, because she's read books claiming FS did make the sales with their respective sources quite recently. I mean, Schreiber and Renate Z. come across as thorough in their research, but Renate Z. also believes Fritz wanted to become HRE at one point simply based on a supposed Wilhelmine quote from 1743 when Mildred presented us with several Fritz quotes to the contrary, so it's not like they are infallible. But it's worth noting both of them did not find any source for the "FS sold supplies to the Prussians" claim other than Fritz.
WHAT. This is GREAT
My thoughts precisely. :)
Re: FS in three biographies: An Overview (2)
Date: 2023-09-05 12:50 pm (UTC)Well, "books" = Hennings, which you have also read. And he cites Vehse, and Vehse does not cite anyone, so that's the sum total of my non-Fritzian evidence. It does not inspire confidence. (Vehse does not appear to be another Koser or Volz, unless I'm missing the volume where he cites his sources.)
Re: FS in three biographies: An Overview (2)
Date: 2023-09-05 12:48 pm (UTC)In conclusion: Awww.
Fred Hennings: For sure, and here is the Fritz quote from that historical masterpiece "The History of the Seven Years War" by Fritz to prove it.
*dies* A hit, a palpable hit!
Selena, that is some EPIC sarcasm. :D
Georg Schreiber: He didn't. That Fritz is the only source of that story ought to tell you something.
That's actually really interesting! Had Fritz been the only source cited by Hennings, I would have come to salon saying, "Hey, looks like our source is Fritzian propaganda!" and not "Hey, looks like this might have actually happened!"
The other source Hennings cites is Eduard Vehse, author of a 48 volume history of Germany. Now, he is an actualfax serious business historian on the one hand, but on the other hand is a nineteenth century German, who is accordingly likely to take der Einzige at face value. (I admit to not having read Vehse's work, so I don't know his actual opinions on Fritz. Wikipedia tells me he was pretty liberal for his time and imprisoned for insulting the duke of Mecklenberg, but, you know, Fritz dominated historiography for that entire century and much of the next. Any of his claims could have slipped in without being checked.)
What made me suspect at the time that Vehse might have had another source that wasn't Fritz was that Vehse claims that MT was very surprised when she found out, which is not in Fritz.
However, I have now had a gander at the original text of Vehse, and I don't see him citing any sources for this, so it's entirely possible that either he made up the part where 1) MT found out, 2) she expressed surprise (to put it mildly, I assume), or that Vehse's uncited source for this part doesn't go back to anything more reliable than Fritz.
In conclusion: If it is in fact true that Fritz is der einzige source for this claim, then yeah, it's propaganda from a gangster who got a lot of his good PR at the expense of bad PR for his rivals*. :P
* I suspect there will be a lot more of that to report when I finish the revisionist August III bio; we already know about Fritz and Brühl and PR!
Renate Zedinger: What Georg Schreiber said. I add that there's another Fritz quote from actually during the war where he complains that FS buying supplies for the Austrian side got the prices up!
And that does actually seem pretty damning for this claim.
The one thing we can say, though: the MT miniseries screenwriters did not make it up and are perhaps not at fault for believing it! (Or may have read more recent bios but decided it would make good fiction anyway--I've been known to do that myself.)
The three biographers: All three of us provide you and Salon with a great new story re: FS visit chez Hohenzollern just when Fritz and EC got engaged, though!
I'm glad this was new to you, because I certainly didn't remember it, and it was one of the reasons I enjoyed the Henning bio, despite its many flaws. (I will observe that I didn't go looking for "what is the most recent and reliable-looking bio of FS, I just noticed it in a footnote to something else I was reading, and went, "Oh, hey, I've been wanting a bio of FS, can I get this one for cheap?" and then did. I'm glad you went looking!)
FW: I don't see the downside of insulting G2, but fine, have it your way.
LOL forever. FW, never change (when it comes to G2).
Re: FS in three biographies: An Overview (2)
Date: 2023-09-06 07:34 am (UTC)Given Charles had no (surviving) son, it does come across as FS really filling that gap, though not without that other requirement of parent/child relationships, the enstrangement/getting independent period, because when FS visits Vienna after his Grand Tour (and the previous years of taking over as Duke of Lorraine), Charles in his diary goes from anticipating the return with joy to a remarkably neutral-to-cooly polite sounding entry thereafter. Presumably it wasn't any one particular thing, and he soon went hunting with FS again, but it was noticable.
Now, he is an actualfax serious business historian on the one hand, but on the other hand is a nineteenth century German, who is accordingly likely to take der Einzige at face value. (I admit to not having read Vehse's work, so I don't know his actual opinions on Fritz. Wikipedia tells me he was pretty liberal for his time and imprisoned for insulting the duke of Mecklenberg, but, you know, Fritz dominated historiography for that entire century and much of the next. Any of his claims could have slipped in without being checked.
I hadn't heard of him before, but having read the wiki entry in question - which mentions he emigrated to the US for a while and then went back to Saxony, presumably because American reality was not much like US = Freedom in the popular European imagination: he does come across as being on the liberal side of things. His bibliography, btw, also includes a book specifically on Fritz and FW, and from our experience, people writing specifically about young Fritz and FW are either of the "poor young Fritz" persuasion or they're Hohenzollern apologists of the "Küstrin made Frederick great" school. iHowever, I see the wiki entry also says his many historical works are "populärwissenschaftlich", meaning he writes entertainingly and without academic references or much source footnoting. In other words, even if it turned out he was a secret admirer of his contemporary Karl Marx (very much a 19th century German *g*) and thought all monarchs sucked, he could have accepted the Fritzian statement for the sheer irony and entertainment value of FS selling supplies to both armies without bothering to countercheck it. I see he died in 1870 (i.e. just on the eve of the Prussian takeover, err, unification of Germany), so it's also questionable whether he would have had access to unpublished until then sources at any of the archives.
The one thing we can say, though: the MT miniseries screenwriters did not make it up and are perhaps not at fault for believing it
That is very true. I wronged them repeatedly in this regard and might to a rewatch at some point with commentary much as I did of "Der Thronfolger", now that we know so much more.
Re: FS in three biographies: An Overview (2)
Date: 2023-09-07 12:15 pm (UTC)I had seen him cited enough that it gave me a little extra willingness to believe he had a source that wasn't Fritz, especially if he was saying things not in Fritz, but it's not looking good now that we've dug in a little more.
However, I see the wiki entry also says his many historical works are "populärwissenschaftlich", meaning he writes entertainingly and without academic references or much source footnoting.
Can confirm the lack of references and footnoting!
so it's also questionable whether he would have had access to unpublished until then sources at any of the archives.
Well, wiki tells me he worked as an archivist at the Dresden state archives, so he had access to *those* unpublished archives, but yeah, Berlin and Vienna archives would have been the important ones here, and he presumably did not. If Arneth said FS sold supplies to the Prussians, *then* I'd believe it!
That is very true. I wronged them repeatedly in this regard and might to a rewatch at some point with commentary much as I did of "Der Thronfolger", now that we know so much more.
We definitely knew much less at the start of salon; it's been and continues to be an amazing journey. I'm leaning toward "Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria" (whom we also wronged) with newly acquired Saxon knowledge, myself...though I need to work on my German listening comprehension first. One day!