cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 45

Unfortunately, there was then at Berlin a King who pursued one policy only, who deceived his enemies, but not his servants, and who lied without scruple, but never without necessity.

(from The King's Secret - by Duke de Broglie, grand-nephew of the subject of the book, Comte de Broglie, and grandfather of the physicist) )

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

Teenage FS: *endears himself to Uncle Charles, who calles him "herzig" und "lieb", and of course long term wise to kid!MT, but is distrusted as too French by Austrian courtiers and Viennese population*

cahn, I need to add that Charles, when FS is away from home, writes that he can't even find pleasure in hunting without FS there to keep him company. This would be the equivalent of Selena saying she can't find pleasure in history without salon, because Charles' interest in hunting is about the same as Selena's interest in history, i.e. a lifelong passion. It was one of the things FS and Charles bonded over.

In conclusion: Awww.

Fred Hennings: For sure, and here is the Fritz quote from that historical masterpiece "The History of the Seven Years War" by Fritz to prove it.

*dies* A hit, a palpable hit!

Selena, that is some EPIC sarcasm. :D

Georg Schreiber: He didn't. That Fritz is the only source of that story ought to tell you something.

That's actually really interesting! Had Fritz been the only source cited by Hennings, I would have come to salon saying, "Hey, looks like our source is Fritzian propaganda!" and not "Hey, looks like this might have actually happened!"

The other source Hennings cites is Eduard Vehse, author of a 48 volume history of Germany. Now, he is an actualfax serious business historian on the one hand, but on the other hand is a nineteenth century German, who is accordingly likely to take der Einzige at face value. (I admit to not having read Vehse's work, so I don't know his actual opinions on Fritz. Wikipedia tells me he was pretty liberal for his time and imprisoned for insulting the duke of Mecklenberg, but, you know, Fritz dominated historiography for that entire century and much of the next. Any of his claims could have slipped in without being checked.)

What made me suspect at the time that Vehse might have had another source that wasn't Fritz was that Vehse claims that MT was very surprised when she found out, which is not in Fritz.

However, I have now had a gander at the original text of Vehse, and I don't see him citing any sources for this, so it's entirely possible that either he made up the part where 1) MT found out, 2) she expressed surprise (to put it mildly, I assume), or that Vehse's uncited source for this part doesn't go back to anything more reliable than Fritz.

In conclusion: If it is in fact true that Fritz is der einzige source for this claim, then yeah, it's propaganda from a gangster who got a lot of his good PR at the expense of bad PR for his rivals*. :P

* I suspect there will be a lot more of that to report when I finish the revisionist August III bio; we already know about Fritz and Brühl and PR!

Renate Zedinger: What Georg Schreiber said. I add that there's another Fritz quote from actually during the war where he complains that FS buying supplies for the Austrian side got the prices up!

And that does actually seem pretty damning for this claim.

The one thing we can say, though: the MT miniseries screenwriters did not make it up and are perhaps not at fault for believing it! (Or may have read more recent bios but decided it would make good fiction anyway--I've been known to do that myself.)

The three biographers: All three of us provide you and Salon with a great new story re: FS visit chez Hohenzollern just when Fritz and EC got engaged, though!

I'm glad this was new to you, because I certainly didn't remember it, and it was one of the reasons I enjoyed the Henning bio, despite its many flaws. (I will observe that I didn't go looking for "what is the most recent and reliable-looking bio of FS, I just noticed it in a footnote to something else I was reading, and went, "Oh, hey, I've been wanting a bio of FS, can I get this one for cheap?" and then did. I'm glad you went looking!)

FW: I don't see the downside of insulting G2, but fine, have it your way.

LOL forever. FW, never change (when it comes to G2).

From:

selenak

It was one of the things FS and Charles bonded over.

Given Charles had no (surviving) son, it does come across as FS really filling that gap, though not without that other requirement of parent/child relationships, the enstrangement/getting independent period, because when FS visits Vienna after his Grand Tour (and the previous years of taking over as Duke of Lorraine), Charles in his diary goes from anticipating the return with joy to a remarkably neutral-to-cooly polite sounding entry thereafter. Presumably it wasn't any one particular thing, and he soon went hunting with FS again, but it was noticable.

Now, he is an actualfax serious business historian on the one hand, but on the other hand is a nineteenth century German, who is accordingly likely to take der Einzige at face value. (I admit to not having read Vehse's work, so I don't know his actual opinions on Fritz. Wikipedia tells me he was pretty liberal for his time and imprisoned for insulting the duke of Mecklenberg, but, you know, Fritz dominated historiography for that entire century and much of the next. Any of his claims could have slipped in without being checked.

I hadn't heard of him before, but having read the wiki entry in question - which mentions he emigrated to the US for a while and then went back to Saxony, presumably because American reality was not much like US = Freedom in the popular European imagination: he does come across as being on the liberal side of things. His bibliography, btw, also includes a book specifically on Fritz and FW, and from our experience, people writing specifically about young Fritz and FW are either of the "poor young Fritz" persuasion or they're Hohenzollern apologists of the "Küstrin made Frederick great" school. iHowever, I see the wiki entry also says his many historical works are "populärwissenschaftlich", meaning he writes entertainingly and without academic references or much source footnoting. In other words, even if it turned out he was a secret admirer of his contemporary Karl Marx (very much a 19th century German *g*) and thought all monarchs sucked, he could have accepted the Fritzian statement for the sheer irony and entertainment value of FS selling supplies to both armies without bothering to countercheck it. I see he died in 1870 (i.e. just on the eve of the Prussian takeover, err, unification of Germany), so it's also questionable whether he would have had access to unpublished until then sources at any of the archives.

The one thing we can say, though: the MT miniseries screenwriters did not make it up and are perhaps not at fault for believing it

That is very true. I wronged them repeatedly in this regard and might to a rewatch at some point with commentary much as I did of "Der Thronfolger", now that we know so much more.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I hadn't heard of him before

I had seen him cited enough that it gave me a little extra willingness to believe he had a source that wasn't Fritz, especially if he was saying things not in Fritz, but it's not looking good now that we've dug in a little more.

However, I see the wiki entry also says his many historical works are "populärwissenschaftlich", meaning he writes entertainingly and without academic references or much source footnoting.

Can confirm the lack of references and footnoting!

so it's also questionable whether he would have had access to unpublished until then sources at any of the archives.

Well, wiki tells me he worked as an archivist at the Dresden state archives, so he had access to *those* unpublished archives, but yeah, Berlin and Vienna archives would have been the important ones here, and he presumably did not. If Arneth said FS sold supplies to the Prussians, *then* I'd believe it!

That is very true. I wronged them repeatedly in this regard and might to a rewatch at some point with commentary much as I did of "Der Thronfolger", now that we know so much more.

We definitely knew much less at the start of salon; it's been and continues to be an amazing journey. I'm leaning toward "Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria" (whom we also wronged) with newly acquired Saxon knowledge, myself...though I need to work on my German listening comprehension first. One day!