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cahnLast post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.
Re: Prinzsorgenfrei update
Date: 2023-03-28 05:30 pm (UTC)- Carl Ernst was buried in the same vault (5) of the Parochialkirche as his mother, as we expected. What I did not expect was that the burial cost was the same in 1822 as in 1791: 60 Taler.
- I don't know if I mentioned this, but Ariane is "Oriane" in both her death record and her baptism record.
- Carl Ernst died of "exhaustion," age 79. I can't remember which of my ancestors died of "exhaustion," if it was the great-great-grandmother who oral history said died of drinking unpasteurized milk, but I remember my mother aka the family genealogist saying, "Yeah, that just means the doctors had no idea."
- Friedrich Ludwig, the son who died age 19, has a very difficult-to-read burial record, but as far as our scribe can tell, was temporarily buried in the Culmann family's hereditary burial site (but we can't read "Culmann" well enough to tell if that's definitely the name). We assume he was later moved to be near his father.
I've contacted the museum to see if they can tell me if Peter and/or Friedrich Ludwig's burials are still to be found there. I'll update if I hear back from the museum.
Keith baptismal ages
Date: 2023-03-29 12:54 pm (UTC)Carl Ernst was baptized November 29, 1743 (according to a biographical dictionary), and died at 1 am on October 20, 1822 at the age of 79 (according to his burial record). If his burial record is correct about his age at time of death, he must have been at least a month old when he was baptized.
Likewise, Ariane was baptized March 23, 1721 (according to her baptism record) and died October 7, 1791, age 71 (both according to her burial record). If her burial record is correct about her age, she must have been at least 5 months old when she was baptized.
Friedrich Ludwig, you may remember, was baptized only 1 day old, at home (instead of at church) because of illness, and Peter Keith sent the letter to Fritz asking him about being godfather 2 days after the baptism had already happened. And we were wondering if that was normal practice.
Well, I know that in France, at least according to Horowski, it was normal *not* to baptize kids right away. Despite infant mortality, for some reason. And if the death records can be trusted, Ariane and Carl Ernst were not baptized right away. Now, what with my mother being the family genealogist, I grew up inundated in "You can't trust these records completely!", but it also seems unlikely that both are wrong in the same way. I think maybe they were baptized in their first year of life, but not in the first few days.
So I'm thinking maybe Peter and Ariane's plan with their second child was to wait to see if the kid survived birth, then bother busy Fritz with a letter, hopefully get permission to list Fritz as godfather, then baptize the kid once they knew. Then those plans had to be changed on short notice because it looked like the kid might die.
Given that we have the cause of death for Peter, Ariane, and Carl Ernst, I really wish we had it for Friedrich Ludwig! That would allow me to take a guess as to whether he was sickly his whole life, or if he just got smallpox or died in a duel or something unrelated.
Poor Ariane in any case: losing her husband young-ish and then her son. :( But being a researcher hundreds of years later is fun.
Getting other people to do research for me
Date: 2023-03-29 04:42 pm (UTC)Still no word from the Wust historian who Prinzsorgenfrei told me to ask about getting Maria von Katte's email address to see if she'll share a copy of the typescript of Martin von Katte's manuscript, *but*, Prinzsorgenfrei says the Wust people like her, and she has promised to put in a good word for me when she's there in early May.
In more successful news, I contacted someone I went to grad school with who's a native speaker of French and has worked with manuscripts, and she has agreed to help transcribe the 6-line note to Peter Keith from Fritz's minister/secretary. Hopefully she can get the whole thing for us.
I'm getting much closer to having a Peter Keith essay I'm ready to show people!
Narrowing in on Peter Keith's grave
Date: 2023-03-29 05:14 pm (UTC)After I gave them the exact quote from the burial record Prinzsorgenfrei transcribed, they wrote back:
In view of the statement you found "St. Nicolai in dem Erbbegräbnis beygesezet word." it seems to me then that Keith - which was not unusual - was co-buried in a hereditary burial (of a relative?) or that he "bought into" a quasi abandoned family tomb. Inherited tombs of families, where at some point no heir grew up or was available, were simply "advertised" again (=sold), because the sale of burial chapels and other inherited tombs served the maintenance of the entire church, especially since the owners of burial chapels had to maintain, for example, the windows and roof above.
However, it is not uncommon that burial chapels were occupied more than once or by other people. I have never heard or read about a hereditary burial of Keith.
That makes so much sense! I had actually been really surprised they had bought a whole new Keith hereditary burial place, based on their income and small family (and the fact that I could find no record of same). Buying into an existing family's hereditary burial makes so much more sense! I am now emailing back and forth with Prinzsorgenfrei and the museum people seeing if we can figure out which family the Keiths were put with, Culmann or otherwise.
- Royal Research Coordinator
ETA: You guys are BACK on the hook for picture-taking! (But not yet, because Prinzsorgenfrei and I are still trying to figure out whether this was a temporary or permanent burial site for Friedrich Ludwig, and thus whether it's likely Peter was put there too.)
Per the museum guy, whom I am liking more and more:
The Culemann Chapel is especially important for us, because medieval wall paintings from the (catholic) time have been preserved here, when this chapel was still used liturgically.
But as a baroque hereditary burial place it was established around 1746 for the Privy Councillor Wilhelm Heinrich Culemann (1677-1746) and his wife Helena Christina, née von Kupner (born 1696).
There is no mention of a co-burial in my literature, but such a thing is not excluded - whether temporarily or permanently.
I have to run soon, but so far this is what I've found as far as pictures of those medieval paintings he was talking about: https://jorgbreitenfeldt.com/portfolio/die-grabkappelle-culemann-der-nikolaikirche-in-berlin-mitte/
Son of ETA: After re-reviewing the record, Prinzsorgenfrei is inclined to agree with my first reading that the Culemann hereditary burial is the permanent burying place, and the word we can't read is probably the temporary place. At least I hope so, since we can't read it!
Now, it's entirely possible that for cost reasons, Peter and Friedrich Ludwig were buried in the hereditary burial place of two different families. However, I'm going to assume that they would have tried to put young Friedrich Ludwig near his father, so until further notice, I'm guessing Peter is in the Culemann Chapel with the Gothic murals.
Which means, until further notice, the next salon-goer to visit Berlin and take pictures of this chapel will earn my undying gratitude!
...Wait, the museum guy just volunteered to take pictures for me. !!! My inbox is a very exciting place today.
Wow, he's stepping down as curator of the Nicolaikirche day after tomorrow, but "we can of course stay in touch on your questions!"
I am so lucky. :DDD Selena, can you read me these 20 books? Felis, can you tell me every time you run into anything that mentions Peter? Cahn, can you use your FamilySearch account to turn up burial records for me? Prinzsorgenfrei, can you transcribe these handwritten documents? Colleague from grad school, can you transcribe this note in French for me? Museum curator, can you help me figure out where Peter is buried and then offer to take pictures for me?
The trick to doing historical research as an amateur is apparently just to ask for lots of favors and coordinate the results! (I've been emailing back and forth between the curator and Prinzsorgenfrei all day, telling the curator what P said and vice versa.)
We'll see if he manages to get me photos before he goes on post-retirement vacation, and then I will update on what, if any, photo requests to salon remain. :D (I'm not going to ask him for 45 pictures of everything from every angle like
I've gone from being an American scholar "studying" the Katte family to an American scholar actually studying the Keith family, no irony or straight face needed!
Re: Narrowing in on Peter Keith's grave
Date: 2023-03-31 03:39 pm (UTC)Re: Narrowing in on Peter Keith's grave
Date: 2023-03-31 05:11 pm (UTC)I hope your trip allows you time to enjoy the museum properly too, it looks great. :D
I would also not say no to a picture of the Nicolaihaus at Brüderstraße 13, if you can fit that in. Even just the front of the building from the street if you don't have time to go in and explore. I do know what the outside looks like, but if I ever publish and the publisher's game for including images, I'll need a picture that I have permission to use.
The Nikolaikirche and Nicolaihaus are 800 meters apart, across the Spree, so hopefully this isn't too much to ask. If you're too pressed for time, no worries, the Culemann Chapel is all I really need.
<3
Re: Narrowing in on Peter Keith's grave
Date: 2023-03-31 06:22 pm (UTC)- He talked to the art restorer of the chapel and forwarded me two pictures showing the crypt doors.
- Art restorer will send better-quality ones with permission to use them for publication if and when I provide details about the intended publication.
- There aren't separate "graves" per se, just the coffins all held together underground in a single burying space beneath the chapel.
- They actually survived WWII pretty well, but after the church was bombed and abandoned, the crypt was exposed to weather and graverobbers/souvenir hunters.
- By the time restoration started circa 1980, there was very little left, just some unidentifiable bones.
- Outside of the burial records
- I have his personal email and instructions not to hesitate to keep asking him questions even now that he's retired.
Wow. This is awesome! I think I'm going to go ask him more questions. :D
Oh, and we're on a first-name basis now.
Also, as expected, I only got 2 pics, so I will still be utterly grateful for any more pictures showing the chapel,
Oh. And now that I know we have one large burying space beneath the chapel with a bunch of coffins, I'm even *more* inclined to think Peter and Friedrich Ludwig are both there: there was surely lots of space. Especially since the Culeman Chapel was brand-new qua burying space in 1746. There's still a scenario, of course, in which Peter was put with a different family in 1757, and it filled up, and Friedrich Ludwig took a spot in a new one in 1764...but we're never going to know, and we do know where 19-yo Friedrich Ludwig was buried, so the Culemann Chapel is still the best spot to pay respects to Peter's remains. (The Tiergarten and Nicolaihaus remain the best spots to pay respects to his life.)
Re: Getting other people to do research for me
Date: 2023-04-01 08:09 pm (UTC)Update: she was able to read the note and will get us a transcription when she's back from a business trip, but the one line in Fritz's (I assume) handwriting scribbled in the margin is stumping her too! *lolsob* She says she has a trusted colleague she'll touch base with, since this is for publication, but requested more samples of Fritz's handwriting for comparison, since only having a few words is as much of an obstacle to her as it has been to me and Prinzsorgenfrei.
I've sent her the letter from Hedwig Suhm which has two illegibly scrawled marginalia that appear to be in the same hand, and one of the letters from Fritz to Wilhelmine from the Italy travel website, which is legible and not helpful at all to me, as the characters are formed completely differently. Hopefully she and her trusted colleague get more out of this than I have!
Sheesh, Fritz. :P