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cahnLast post, we had (among other things) Danish kings and their favorites; Louis XIV and Philippe d'Orléans; reviews of a very shippy book about Katte, a bad Jacobite novel, and a great book about clothing; a fic about Émilie du Châtelet and Voltaire; and a review of a set of entertaining Youtube history videos about Frederick the Great.
Getting other people to do research for me
Date: 2023-03-29 04:42 pm (UTC)Still no word from the Wust historian who Prinzsorgenfrei told me to ask about getting Maria von Katte's email address to see if she'll share a copy of the typescript of Martin von Katte's manuscript, *but*, Prinzsorgenfrei says the Wust people like her, and she has promised to put in a good word for me when she's there in early May.
In more successful news, I contacted someone I went to grad school with who's a native speaker of French and has worked with manuscripts, and she has agreed to help transcribe the 6-line note to Peter Keith from Fritz's minister/secretary. Hopefully she can get the whole thing for us.
I'm getting much closer to having a Peter Keith essay I'm ready to show people!
Narrowing in on Peter Keith's grave
Date: 2023-03-29 05:14 pm (UTC)After I gave them the exact quote from the burial record Prinzsorgenfrei transcribed, they wrote back:
In view of the statement you found "St. Nicolai in dem Erbbegräbnis beygesezet word." it seems to me then that Keith - which was not unusual - was co-buried in a hereditary burial (of a relative?) or that he "bought into" a quasi abandoned family tomb. Inherited tombs of families, where at some point no heir grew up or was available, were simply "advertised" again (=sold), because the sale of burial chapels and other inherited tombs served the maintenance of the entire church, especially since the owners of burial chapels had to maintain, for example, the windows and roof above.
However, it is not uncommon that burial chapels were occupied more than once or by other people. I have never heard or read about a hereditary burial of Keith.
That makes so much sense! I had actually been really surprised they had bought a whole new Keith hereditary burial place, based on their income and small family (and the fact that I could find no record of same). Buying into an existing family's hereditary burial makes so much more sense! I am now emailing back and forth with Prinzsorgenfrei and the museum people seeing if we can figure out which family the Keiths were put with, Culmann or otherwise.
- Royal Research Coordinator
ETA: You guys are BACK on the hook for picture-taking! (But not yet, because Prinzsorgenfrei and I are still trying to figure out whether this was a temporary or permanent burial site for Friedrich Ludwig, and thus whether it's likely Peter was put there too.)
Per the museum guy, whom I am liking more and more:
The Culemann Chapel is especially important for us, because medieval wall paintings from the (catholic) time have been preserved here, when this chapel was still used liturgically.
But as a baroque hereditary burial place it was established around 1746 for the Privy Councillor Wilhelm Heinrich Culemann (1677-1746) and his wife Helena Christina, née von Kupner (born 1696).
There is no mention of a co-burial in my literature, but such a thing is not excluded - whether temporarily or permanently.
I have to run soon, but so far this is what I've found as far as pictures of those medieval paintings he was talking about: https://jorgbreitenfeldt.com/portfolio/die-grabkappelle-culemann-der-nikolaikirche-in-berlin-mitte/
Son of ETA: After re-reviewing the record, Prinzsorgenfrei is inclined to agree with my first reading that the Culemann hereditary burial is the permanent burying place, and the word we can't read is probably the temporary place. At least I hope so, since we can't read it!
Now, it's entirely possible that for cost reasons, Peter and Friedrich Ludwig were buried in the hereditary burial place of two different families. However, I'm going to assume that they would have tried to put young Friedrich Ludwig near his father, so until further notice, I'm guessing Peter is in the Culemann Chapel with the Gothic murals.
Which means, until further notice, the next salon-goer to visit Berlin and take pictures of this chapel will earn my undying gratitude!
...Wait, the museum guy just volunteered to take pictures for me. !!! My inbox is a very exciting place today.
Wow, he's stepping down as curator of the Nicolaikirche day after tomorrow, but "we can of course stay in touch on your questions!"
I am so lucky. :DDD Selena, can you read me these 20 books? Felis, can you tell me every time you run into anything that mentions Peter? Cahn, can you use your FamilySearch account to turn up burial records for me? Prinzsorgenfrei, can you transcribe these handwritten documents? Colleague from grad school, can you transcribe this note in French for me? Museum curator, can you help me figure out where Peter is buried and then offer to take pictures for me?
The trick to doing historical research as an amateur is apparently just to ask for lots of favors and coordinate the results! (I've been emailing back and forth between the curator and Prinzsorgenfrei all day, telling the curator what P said and vice versa.)
We'll see if he manages to get me photos before he goes on post-retirement vacation, and then I will update on what, if any, photo requests to salon remain. :D (I'm not going to ask him for 45 pictures of everything from every angle like
I've gone from being an American scholar "studying" the Katte family to an American scholar actually studying the Keith family, no irony or straight face needed!
Re: Narrowing in on Peter Keith's grave
Date: 2023-03-31 03:39 pm (UTC)Re: Narrowing in on Peter Keith's grave
Date: 2023-03-31 05:11 pm (UTC)I hope your trip allows you time to enjoy the museum properly too, it looks great. :D
I would also not say no to a picture of the Nicolaihaus at Brüderstraße 13, if you can fit that in. Even just the front of the building from the street if you don't have time to go in and explore. I do know what the outside looks like, but if I ever publish and the publisher's game for including images, I'll need a picture that I have permission to use.
The Nikolaikirche and Nicolaihaus are 800 meters apart, across the Spree, so hopefully this isn't too much to ask. If you're too pressed for time, no worries, the Culemann Chapel is all I really need.
<3
Re: Narrowing in on Peter Keith's grave
Date: 2023-03-31 06:22 pm (UTC)- He talked to the art restorer of the chapel and forwarded me two pictures showing the crypt doors.
- Art restorer will send better-quality ones with permission to use them for publication if and when I provide details about the intended publication.
- There aren't separate "graves" per se, just the coffins all held together underground in a single burying space beneath the chapel.
- They actually survived WWII pretty well, but after the church was bombed and abandoned, the crypt was exposed to weather and graverobbers/souvenir hunters.
- By the time restoration started circa 1980, there was very little left, just some unidentifiable bones.
- Outside of the burial records
- I have his personal email and instructions not to hesitate to keep asking him questions even now that he's retired.
Wow. This is awesome! I think I'm going to go ask him more questions. :D
Oh, and we're on a first-name basis now.
Also, as expected, I only got 2 pics, so I will still be utterly grateful for any more pictures showing the chapel,
Oh. And now that I know we have one large burying space beneath the chapel with a bunch of coffins, I'm even *more* inclined to think Peter and Friedrich Ludwig are both there: there was surely lots of space. Especially since the Culeman Chapel was brand-new qua burying space in 1746. There's still a scenario, of course, in which Peter was put with a different family in 1757, and it filled up, and Friedrich Ludwig took a spot in a new one in 1764...but we're never going to know, and we do know where 19-yo Friedrich Ludwig was buried, so the Culemann Chapel is still the best spot to pay respects to Peter's remains. (The Tiergarten and Nicolaihaus remain the best spots to pay respects to his life.)
Re: Getting other people to do research for me
Date: 2023-04-01 08:09 pm (UTC)Update: she was able to read the note and will get us a transcription when she's back from a business trip, but the one line in Fritz's (I assume) handwriting scribbled in the margin is stumping her too! *lolsob* She says she has a trusted colleague she'll touch base with, since this is for publication, but requested more samples of Fritz's handwriting for comparison, since only having a few words is as much of an obstacle to her as it has been to me and Prinzsorgenfrei.
I've sent her the letter from Hedwig Suhm which has two illegibly scrawled marginalia that appear to be in the same hand, and one of the letters from Fritz to Wilhelmine from the Italy travel website, which is legible and not helpful at all to me, as the characters are formed completely differently. Hopefully she and her trusted colleague get more out of this than I have!
Sheesh, Fritz. :P